What Would You Do?

[aslan]

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A class with two dogs in it.

Exhibitor 1 (E1) does the up and back whilst Exhibitor 2 has dog on the table. Judge standing in front of E2.

Judge says to E1, "Your dog is limping."

E1: "Show side back leg?"

Judge: "Yes. Is s/he hurt?"

E2: Admits the dog has a cut and shows the judge the injury.

Judge: "Do you want to withdraw him/her?

E2: no answer - does not move to leave the ring

Judge: turns toward E2's dog whilst still speaking to E1, "I mean it's up to you, you do whatever you want...."

Judge then judges E2's dog who has no injury, and does not misbehave (and, to prove it's quality, is a multi BIG winner).

Judge then proceeded to award E1's dog 1st in class, CC (over two other sound dogs (one of whom is a RIS winner), BOB (over a Gr CH/BIS winning dog) and BIG (over a number of other winning dogs - none of which were limping - dog in question still was.)

If you were E2 in that class and had that discussion held in front of you - what would you do?

If you were the steward in the ring and had witnessed the proceedings what would you do?

 

[Sachiko]

well, in my perfect world, dog that isn't in top condition does not compete - it is home recovering. If I'm aware of such injury before the show, we won't go at all.

As it comes to the judge, how can he place as 1st a dog, when he can't really say what sort of mover this dog is?

 

[Noise]

it says a lot about the exhibitor to bring an injured dog to a show - what he cares about more.

As it comes to the judge, how can he place as 1st a dog, when he can't really say what sort of mover this dog is?

unless the judge has made up his mind before the ring :-

 

[shenace]

All you can do is never enter under this judge again - he/she has made themself look like a fool by putting up a lame dog.... hmmm... wonder if lame exhibit's owner is judging somewhere soon???? :unsure: Annoying, but alas,,,, it happens

 

[T Hoare]

As the exhibitor who is beaten by a lame dog there is not an awful lot you can do, other than not enter under this judge again

As the judge who puts a lame dog over a sound dog, seriously consider should I ever judge again.

As the exhibitor of the lame dog, should have had the decency to withdraw from the class.

 

[GotWhippet?]

I wouldn't say anything because it is none of my business. The convo is b/w the judge and E1. Judge is an idiot for putting up an unsound dog for starters and E1 is an idiot for not withdrawing the dog.

 

[Mychaka]

I think some judges need to actually read the clause they are signing when awarding CC's - it clearly states.......

"I am clearly of the opinion that this exhibit is of such outstanding merit as to be worthy to qualify for the title of Champion"

Not only by awarding a dog which limps and cannot clearly show correct movement and that the judge had asked the owner of withdrawing the dog can only give the impression to the owner (and anyone else) that he/she can show a dog in any condition and still win.

Does make you wonder why? (w00t)

I have been thinking lately that I wish more people would question judges on their decisions .... they should be accountable for the choices they make - but hey then again I've lost to limping dogs before, I've lost to dogs with full pricked ears and lost to dogs that can't even be judged. Mark the judge down in your little black book Lana and write 'never waste my money again' simple.

I had a good one on Sunday when I took my boy in for baby puppy, now he is a couple of days off being 6mths old, he was first on the table with a dog a month younger then him behind him with not a lot of difference in height. I get from the judge in a loud voice that everyone could hear "I certainly hope that dog is at least 5mths old" to which I clearly stated to her that he was 2 days off being 6 mths of age - I thought of withdrawing him right then as we clearly did not have a hope in hell of getting the class, but we did our up and back and triangle without fault and only for this class was the other dog placed in front of him to go around the ring again and of course not we were not even considered. I did think afterwards that I should of innocently told her he was 3 months of age and was there a problem? I wouldn't of had anything to lose and the look on her face most likely would of been worth it.

Now before the flames come .......... I'm not having a go at all judges but when this sort of stuff happens I can see why numbers of dogs being shown are dwindling because of the 'old you pat my back and I'll pat yours' which if you honestly think about it - does happen.

Ok off my soap box now - just got me at a time when I'm feeling a little bit off about the going on's in and out of the show ring.

Cristina

 

[liza]

I think some judges need to actually read the clause they are signing when awarding CC's - it clearly states.......
"I am clearly of the opinion that this exhibit is of such outstanding merit as to be worthy to qualify for the title of Champion"

Not only by awarding a dog which limps and cannot clearly show correct movement and that the judge had asked the owner of withdrawing the dog can only give the impression to the owner (and anyone else) that he/she can show a dog in any condition and still win.

Does make you wonder why? (w00t)

I have been thinking lately that I wish more people would question judges on their decisions .... they should be accountable for the choices they make - but hey then again I've lost to limping dogs before, I've lost to dogs with full pricked ears and lost to dogs that can't even be judged. Mark the judge down in your little black book Lana and write 'never waste my money again' simple.

I had a good one on Sunday when I took my boy in for baby puppy, now he is a couple of days off being 6mths old, he was first on the table with a dog a month younger then him behind him with not a lot of difference in height. I get from the judge in a loud voice that everyone could hear "I certainly hope that dog is at least 5mths old" to which I clearly stated to her that he was 2 days off being 6 mths of age - I thought of withdrawing him right then as we clearly did not have a hope in hell of getting the class, but we did our up and back and triangle without fault and only for this class was the other dog placed in front of him to go around the ring again and of course not we were not even considered. I did think afterwards that I should of innocently told her he was 3 months of age and was there a problem? I wouldn't of had anything to lose and the look on her face most likely would of been worth it.

Now before the flames come .......... I'm not having a go at all judges but when this sort of stuff happens I can see why numbers of dogs being shown are dwindling because of the 'old you pat my back and I'll pat yours' which if you honestly think about it - does happen.

Ok off my soap box now - just got me at a time when I'm feeling a little bit off about the going on's in and out of the show ring.

Cristina

you wouldnt even concider putting up a limping dog as said before how can you see the movement

 

[bethany]

Now iam still a beginner in the show dog world and i certainly dont pretend to know everything about showing dogs, i love showing my little whippet and have some good wins with her with my limited experience, but iam a very experienced horse handler and have shown many horses with great success over the years showing part bred arabians in hand at a very high level with many wins in reserve champions, champions and grand champion to my name. I know longer show horses as i wish to concentrate now on showing my dog. In this situation i think back to showing horses and how there is no way i would have shown any of my horses that where lame, during 3 day events horses are checked by a vet and if any unsoundness shows the horse is scratched from the event.

Lamness=discomfort! its not right to show a lame animal no matter how superficial the wound is, is a judge allowed to remove a dog from the ring if he/she feels the animal is unsound?

The animals should be judged on how they are on the day if a dog is presented that is lame surely that constitutes a dog that is not in peak condition. I know if a horse was shown lame it would probably be asked to leave the ring i know i have done this myself when judging horses.

A lame dog in the ring looks bad for everyone with the bad press that showing dogs has been getting lately can we really afford to be showing lame dogs?

It makes me very cross when people put ribbons and trophies before the welfare of there animals.

But like i said iam a newbie and people may think iam a bit soft and spoilt my dogs to much but i love my dogs and thats what realy matters.

cheers.

 

[Cartman]

Several issues here.

First: Forget what the others won. Lets just say there were other dogs of quallity.

Second: The exhibitor of the dog with a cut pad should not of entered the ring. That offence shows just how low someone can go. Opens the question of why was the dog not under treatment of a Vet?

Third: The judge. Shoud of made a firm stand & called in the steward to remove the dog if the exhibitor did not have the insides to do so.

Fourth: The idiot showing the dog that came second. If it were I, I would of said to the judge something like " that dogs been like that for weeks now, makes you wonder dosent it?" & or when placed 2nd. "WANKER". When the judge questions that just say, "who said I was paying a complement to you?"

Then when it goes befor Council you will have a good chance of getting off or (in my case) a fine of $200 & told to be a good boy for 12 months. That is if the judge has the guts to report you.

So in short I would not of shown the dog like that, & i have no respect for those kind of exhibitors & judges that do that kind of thing.

 

[Wayward_Angel]

I think in the end it is the judges decision. Maybe the judge thought that the E1 dog was better quailty then the others entered (or was it face judging?)

I don't think there is much you can do apart from what others have said - don't enter under them again.

 

[aslan]

How in the world can it be considered better quality if it is not moving properly?

You must judge on the day - you can't say to yourself - this would be a great dog if it wasn't limping and award it when it is. You cannot see its natural movement if it is hindered in any way.

My reasoning for mentioning what the other dogs had won was to justify that there were other quality dogs in the ring who were not limping.

The cut was not actually on the pad. E1 was not a judge. But I wish to go no further in describing details of anything else as I do not want to bring the identities of the people to the fore on the public forum.

In the first post I asked, "If you were E2 in this situation what would you do?"

I am questioning the behaviour and consequent actions of the judge rather than E1.

The "idiot that came second" (E2) would have made a complaint on the day if they'd had $20 on them with which to lay the complaint. (not sure if you have to pay in other states when you want to make a complaint).

But it seems that most of you, with the exception of Cartman, would have taken it laying down ie walk away grumbling and just not enter under that person again, which lets the judge get away with this kind of behaviour.

I've been beaten by limping dogs before - but in every other case the judge has just pretended they don't see it and the exhibitor pretends it's not happening. There's not much you can do in those cases, usually we do the above, because if no-one else is going to verbalise that the dog is limping it's only your word against theirs.

In this case it was openly acknowledged by both judge and exhibitor, within hearing distance of the steward, the other exhibitor in the class and other exhibitors in the assembly area - and I would think there is cause for action of some kind. My personal opinion is that it is the most openly blatant disregard for the system that I have witnessed in my 35 years of exhibiting. I think the judge should be called upon to explain their actions - so at least they know they haven't got off with this kind of behaviour scott free.

 

[GotWhippet?]

I only say I'd do nothing because: you can spend all the money in the world, report as many times as you like and tell as many people as you can.....BUT.....the end result will be the same

nothing will happen.

The whole situation isn't worth vesting the energy. The judge is an idiot and so is E1. Write them both off and move on.

 

[Mark Roberts]

not a good situation

but i think you have to put it down to experiance and move forward.

 

[JAX]

What a bummer Lana

I think I would have said something to the judge . in fact I know I would

A couple of years ago at a local show we had an Irish judge and it was noticed that 1 exhibitor had travelled 5 hours with 5 poor examples of the breed to the venue when they had never been there before . . the puppy class winner was ok but 2nd and 3rd was one of theirs .

In the next class they had one of the worst specimins of a whippet I have ever seen , . This was placed 1st he then pointed to me to be 2nd , and I said in a loud voice I AM NOT STANDING THIS BITCH BEHIND THAT !! , I with draw from the class . `

He carried on judging .placing the other whippets from wales above superior specimins. I withdrew my next dog from Open and said to the judge` Your judging is the worst I have ever seen and you should be ashamed of yourself .`

I wonder if the fact that £100.00 was on for BIS had anything to do with it as the BIS show judge was also from Ireland ( I have nothing against the Irish, honestley )

I found out the the peps who had travelled form Wales even tried to enter a whippet they owned by the judge , under him . It was only spotted by the sec as they entries went in , these folk have never returned to the venue either

Now , I could have got into serious trouble with the KC for what i did had he reported me ,but then again I wouldnt have thought hed have the nerve to , and funnily enough , no critque was ever sent to the dog press either

a judge for your little black book , thats for sure

 

[Sachiko]

I have a feeling, that if such would happen in Finland, I could make a complain about it (for free) and it would be investigated and the dog's results were taken away.

Finnish kennel club has these new antidoping rules (very strict) and if the dog had any medicine, even a simple antibiotic, it wouln't be allowed to enter. So I do think showing a limping dog would be forbidden also.

But I just have to wonder, how superficial and minor can a cut be, if it makes the dog to limp? It would have to be on the paw and wouldn't it then be quite cruel to force the dog to walk since it must hurt if it lays down the paw.

 

[whippetfan]

What can you do?

Mark the judge as one not to bother exhibiting under in future and walk away. That's really about it.

Anything else makes you look like a bad loser. There will always be unfathomable judging decisions. The only way to know why the judge makes placements is to politely ask them afterwards.

 

[Cartman]

I have mellowed in the past 40 or so years of showing whippets. But I still like the old days, like the time I was in aline up for res. cc. I held the dogs 2 hock together with one hand & suported the weight of the dog with the other. The judge promptly came over & asked what on earth are you doing that for. I replyed with "trying to make my dog look like the CCwinner." 8)

On leaving the ring the judge told me never do that in her ring again. Again came a classic reply," Thats no problem, I will never enter under you again, & my Mum said if I always told the truth I would not get into trouble."

Oh, to 16 again..........................

 

[Cartman]

The only way to know why the judge makes placements is to politely ask them afterwards.

"Politely" I have heard of that word somewhere. Must find out what it means someday. :clown:

 

[whippetfan]

Cartman:

The judge promptly came over & asked what on earth are you doing that for. I replyed with "trying to make my dog look like the CCwinner."

Naughty Cartman.. wish I'd seen/heard that one. (w00t)

"Politely" I have heard of that word somewhere. Must find out what it means someday. :clown:

"Politely".. any question that doesn't commence with three little words starting with WTF...