Whippet / Cavalier X ...

[Lynn-Alexandria]

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I completely missed this thread. As someone who has kept Cavalier King Charles Spaniels for years I can tell you that I have NEVER heard of the Tudor Hound. IMHO it is a name that the breeder put on there. The reasoning for this? To make it sound fancy and therefore able to bump the price up. Breeding different breeds together and giving them a fancy name has only one agenda, money. The Tudor Hound was probably a name thought up to save them saying "Cross breed"

Breeding different breeds you are risking the health of the pups. Genetic disorders are all too common in pedigree dogs let alone breeding them with another breed. You are just adding to an existing problem and risking causing more problems with the pups when they are older.

Designer breeding is about money, nothing more. I once heard a breeder of Labradoodles say

"The perfect dog for people with allergies"

then an owner of one who had to rehome their dog becuase their allergy worsened when the pup was brought into the house.

This is my opinion.

 

[Seraphina]

The Downside of Inbreeding:It’s Time For a New Approach

by C.A. Sharp

the downside of inbreeding...

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This is an excelent article. Well worth reading. :thumbsup: Thanks for that fewterer!

Assortative mating—the mating of phenotypically similar but unrelated or less-related individuals—will allow breeders to reach their breeding goals while reducing the loss of alleles in the over-all population. "

This is something I have been trying to practice for a long time.

 

[whippetsrus]

Just not for me I'm afraid. There is too much about the whippet that I love without diluting those characteristics by interbreeding.

I suppose it is all down to the individual, but when I think of all the rescue centres full of lurchers, all sighthound crosses, I struggle to see the difference.

At the end of the day we all look for individual characteristics in our dog and as long as we are happy with the result maybe that is just how it should be left.

Regards

Jackie :cheers:

 

[gavintasker]

Re inherited defects and outcrossing:

Many mutations are recessive and only appear in the pups following close, "pedigree" breeding where both parents carry the problem and therefore 25% of the pups will show the effect.

Not all pedigree breeds have the same the same problems [or genetic burden].

Therefore if you outcross to a different breeds the chances of both parents carrying the SAME problem gene are much reduced, resulting in lively, healthy pups.

Some of the mutations are small, cumulative ones and by outcrossing you can counteract them producing what geneticists call "Hybrid vigour."

As a cat breeder of nearly 30 years I have now switched to a breed where outcrossing is permitted and I have only bred like with like once in the last 9 litters and had only two problems. {One kitten was laid on and one is slightly flat-chested.} My girls give birth naturally,. No trips to the vet half way through labour for Oxytocin. No milk drying up to soon. No kittens fading and dying after up to 21 days.No kittens resorbed or infertility.And they are all different. And GCCF registered stud boys have to have both nuts to get their babies registered.

As for money- since mine are rare breed which Joe Public is unaware of I have trouble giving them away!

They go at 13 weeks, vaccinated,registered and insured for £199.00

I love my whippets and am so glad to have been introduced to the breed.

One of our boys is epileptic so will never be used for stud work.I would like to think that we might take on a lurcher [when we have a space and aren`t past it ]

If they have the wonderful temperament of a whippet and we can find one which will fit in a small bungalow, I would be very pleased.

The only advantage of a pedigree animal is that you have a rough idea of what you are buying and then you are only paying for a "promise". What you end up with 18 months later is a matter of luck.

If you are interested you can see what I have been up to at:

http://groups.msn.com/OURCATSONLINE/bundookangoras.msnw

Sorry to be an old pedant but I did teach Biology for 25 years!

Gavin . {B.Sc Botany Hons. Exeter}

 

[Seraphina]

Re inherited defects and outcrossing:
Not all pedigree breeds have the same the same problems [or genetic burden].

Therefore if you outcross to a different breeds the chances of both parents carrying the SAME problem gene are much reduced, resulting in lively, healthy pups.

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I agree that outcrossing two different breeds of dogs could be beneficial IF done for a particular reason. However genetic problems are not breed specific, albeit some are more prevalent in one breed than other, and some breeds have lot more inherited problems than other. However, unless you know both of the breeds very well, and know the particular dogs you are using, you just cannot know what is there. If you outcross to a breed that has the same problem, you have same chance to double up on the bad recessive. But whichever way you look at it you end up with crossbred pups. On the other hand you can breed two unrelated dogs of the same breed and get exactly the same health benefits.

It is rather different with cats, as the cat breeds do not differ from each other to the extent dogs do, so it is possible to cross to another breed; for instance to introduce a new colour or other trait and not to change the type as dramatically as you do when crossing Whippet with Cavalier.

Nice cats you have. Aren't they Balinese?

 

[gavintasker]

:teehee:

Re inherited defects and outcrossing:
Not all pedigree breeds have the same the same problems [or genetic burden].

Therefore if you outcross to a different breeds the chances of both parents carrying the SAME problem gene are much reduced, resulting in lively, healthy pups.

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I agree that outcrossing two different breeds of dogs could be beneficial IF done for a particular reason. However genetic problems are not breed specific, albeit some are more prevalent in one breed than other, and some breeds have lot more inherited problems than other. However, unless you know both of the breeds very well, and know the particular dogs you are using, you just cannot know what is there. If you outcross to a breed that has the same problem, you have same chance to double up on the bad recessive. But whichever way you look at it you end up with crossbred pups. On the other hand you can breed two unrelated dogs of the same breed and get exactly the same health benefits.

It is rather different with cats, as the cat breeds do not differ from each other to the extent dogs do, so it is possible to cross to another breed; for instance to introduce a new colour or other trait and not to change the type as dramatically as you do when crossing Whippet with Cavalier.

Nice cats you have. Aren't they Balinese?

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On the other hand you can breed two unrelated dogs of the same breed and get exactly the same health benefits.

Ah, BUT finding two unrelated dogs!!!!!!!!!!!!

All pedigree breeds are man-made and often start with one animal or litter of siblings.

Happily for racing/coursing whippets - these are bred for speed rather than conforming to a standard of points so these will be more likely to be good "doers" rather than beauty queens of exaggerated type, likely to comply with what the judges are looking for these days.

No my cats aren`t Balinese but their Dad is! They are Oriental Longhairs [Angoras].

I have a bee in my bonnet about Balis cos they are dying on their feet. The gene pool is minute and the number of breeders outcrossing [legally] to Siamese is minimal. So there are the problems in the breed as mentioned in my first message. Some registering bodies [eg FIFE] recognise my pointed longhair kits as Balinese but not the GCCF.

The problems in pedigree animals are all of man`s [or woman`s] making and it is up to us breeders to do our bit to make healthy babies as a priority. After all, most of our babes go as pets any way, so as long as they are fit,and have good temperaments it doesn`t matter whether they conform to closely to any particular stereotype.

On the other hand I DO like a pedigree cat to like like one and not a farm moggie.

Here endeth the second lesson.

I hope I`m not too boring.

Gavin

 

[chelynnah]

i'm sure there will just as much thought going into their breeding as some pure breds,

I really cannot see how they can do as much research when you are breeding from 2 different pure breeds. When breeders research a pure bred litter - they will be looking at a dog that will compliment and improve any charcteristics in their bitch which they think are lacking.

When crossing 2 different breeds, all you can look at is whether each dog is a good specimen, ensuring it's healthy and then it's temperament.

It's not as though you look at the whippet bitch and think 'oh she's a bit short coupled' - lets mate her to a cavalier is it??

The only exception to this are lurcher breeders - which is completely different from just a cross of two entirely breeds. As you can line breed in lurchers.

if i could get the bet i would be backing a weeks wage on a labradoodle class at crufts in 10 years time i think the fact that they are charging these prices and selling ( iv'e not seen any ads for designer crosses going"cheap") them says something

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Not meaning to be rude Masta, but you must have very limited knowledge of the workings of the Kennel Club to think a cross breed would be at all likely to have breed classes at a Champ show in 10 years!! Pure breeds from other countries eg Azawakhs haven't got breed classes yet - it takes years to get a breed standard etc etc

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i believe from personaly researching these so called designer dogs that most of the pairings have had quite careful thought/research re temperament,health etc (i may be wrong but i believe the poodle x labs etc were instigated by the guide dog society) quite different from most pure breds were Appearance is the first criterion - compliment and improve, hence why you often see a pup advertised as "pet only" also why we still have inherent problems in lots of pure breeds. i dont take your comments as being rude and your quite right i have very limited knowledge of the KC but i have been very interested by these dogs and let me state now that i have two pedigree whippets and have no desire to own or breed these dogs, but i have seen the interest and PR surrounding these breeds and would think the sheer weight of ownership and interest will quicken the process, i maybe wrong.

You may have the answer to this how long did it take Parson russell terrier (purebreed?) to be KC registered?

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Yes, they were originated by the guide dogs societies, but the programme was scrapped as they did not breed true. Therefore if they don't breed true they can never truly be a 'breed', therefore they cannot be KC registered. They always had to go back to one side or the other and bring a purebred back in.

Wendy

 

[Seraphina]

On the other hand you can breed two unrelated dogs of the same breed and get exactly the same health benefits.

Ah, BUT finding two unrelated dogs!!!!!!!!!!!!

All pedigree breeds are man-made and often start with one animal or litter of siblings.

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That could be said about anything living on the planet. Even humans, our mitochondrial DNA can be traced to one female!

As far Whippets go there is lot of them all over the world, we should have not too much problem to retain healthy genetic diversity. In Europe there were many lines not immediately related to the UK ones. There are some beautiful whippets in countries like Lithuania. Although breeders there did import several dogs from western Europe recently.

No my cats aren`t Balinese but their Dad is! They are Oriental Longhairs [Angoras].

:b Obviously, i am not keeping up to speed with the ever evolving cat breeds. I remember Angora to be totally different looking cat. I do not know what is it like over in the UK but here it is (or at leats was) possible for some well established breeders to apply for doing experimental breeding, bringing into the breeds another breed or a moggy. I do not know how many such a crosses were or are produced. But i guess that is how we gor all the tabby pointed siamese etc.

 

[kitty]

I'd love to see some pictures of the puppy that started this thread and hear how she/he is developing.

If the poster who started the discussion is still around!

 

[lurcherman]

too many people messing around with different crosses really get my back up, why arnt peeps never happy with wot they have got :angry: cavs r a waste of space anyway.

 

[Tesa]

too many people messing around with different crosses  Agreewhy arnt peeps never happy with wot they have got :angry:   Agree

cavs r a waste of space anyway.  Disagree

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Sorry but I was sadden to see this come up as a cross. Love my whippets, they are the breed for me :thumbsup: Cavi's are a great little dog, pretty looking dogs and I have never met one I didn't like :thumbsup: But for the life of me I can not understand why anyone would want to cross them. As the old saying goes "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it"

 

[Seraphina]

I'd love to see some pictures of the puppy that started this thread and hear how she/he is developing.

If the poster who  started the discussion is still around!

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Why not PM her?