Whippet V Yorkie

[harrysmum]

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Billie the whippet joined our family a couple of months ago, she is just over a year old and has fitted in beautifully apart from....

She is being extremely dominant over my 3 year old yorkie bitch. Tiny the yorkie can hold her own but Billie keeps going up behind her, pinning her down then trying to shake her by the neck, she doesn't try to do this with my other whippet, they do the usual shaking with their toys and I know this is a typical hound reaction but I just don't know how to deal with it with my yorkie. Tiny can't move her head round to retaliate and so is starting to get hurt.

Billie is crated when we are out and at night to give Tiny a break but when I am at home I don't have eyes in the back of my head and am worried Billie will go over the top.

Any ideas or thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Annette

 

[midlanderkeith]

Billie the whippet joined our family a couple of months ago, she is just over a year old and has fitted in beautifully apart from....
She is being extremely dominant over my 3 year old yorkie bitch.  Tiny the yorkie can hold her own but Billie keeps going up behind her, pinning her down then trying to shake her by the neck, she doesn't try to do this with my other whippet, they do the usual shaking with their toys and I know this is a typical hound reaction but I just don't know how to deal with it with my yorkie.  Tiny can't move her head round to retaliate and so is starting to get hurt.

Billie is crated when we are out and at night to give Tiny a break but when I am at home I don't have eyes in the back of my head and am worried Billie will go over the top.

Any ideas or thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Annette

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Several views i see but no answers, now im a bit reluctant in posting this cos someone will jump down my throat, distressing, for the yorkie, distressing for you im sure, so try this, roll up a newspaper, and next time Billie goes for Tiny, crack Bllie round the backside with it and say no, it will stop it im sure

keith

 

[jezza]

Hi,

I haven't got a definate answer for you but I can tell you what I am trying with my dog who goes completely mental when he sees other dogs.

On the advice of a qualified behaviourist I have been using training discs. The idea is that when he is doing something I don't want him to ie. barking and snapping at dogs, I rattle the discs. This distracts the dog from what he is doing, then I have to concentrate on treating him when he is quiet. It has been quite effective, except now I tend to use the 'stones in a bottle' technique. Same purpose, a distraction from the unwanted behaviour, just a bit louder!

I really don't know if this technique would be useful in your situation and would advise that you speak to a behaviourist if you think the behaviour could get out of hand. In my dog it is aggression from fear, in your case it sounds like a dominance issue (? I am guessing here!).

If you want to pm me I can ask my trainer next time I see her (wed).

Hope I have been of some help

Lucy

 

[Nicola]

Good luck. :luck:

Sorry I can't offer any advice...but I know how frustrating this problem is, having experienced something similar a while back.

(Nothing to do with my current two I hasten to add, they have a very close bond...or at least Stan thinks the world of Fred...don't think it's equally reciprocated though. :- " )

 

[harrysmum]

Thank you so much for the advice. I have tried the pebbles in a coke can idea but Billie seems to be "on a mission" when it comes to Tiny and nothing will stop her.

When she has done it infront of me I have said "NO" really sharply and a friend who is a behaviourist has said to hold her by the collar and put her as low to the ground as possible, ie her face is on the ground, this shows her she is not "top dog". It works when I am around, but as soon as I am out of the room she reverts back.

She can play with Tiny beautifully, nudging her and they leap around like lunatics but Billie can just "decide" to be dominant and do the grabbing around the neck. There is no lead up to it, ie playing either. She just goes for it.

 

[BeeJay]

>When she has done it infront of me I have said "NO" really sharply and a friend who is a behaviourist has said to hold her by the collar and put her as low to the ground as possible, ie her face is on the ground, this shows her she is not "top dog". It works when I am around, but as soon as I am out of the room she reverts back.

Well it will because what you are doing is showing that you are top over Billie. Tiny isn't doing it herself. This is the whole problem of trying to sort out dominance between dogs. As soon as the human is out of the way then it's down to the dogs themselves.

Has your behaviourist friend actually seen this happening? I would be worried about the shaking part of the behaviour if that was to escalate then Tiny could be hurt badly. Especially if she starts to make a noise. I would be worry about Billie's prey drive kicking in. I've never seen any of my dogs try to shake another one. But others on here might have in which case I could be over reacting.

I think that the problem could have serious consequences and so I'd suggest that you get a good behaviourist to come to your house and see what is going on and that way they can advise you best.

I would muzzle Billie when I wasn't in the room to supervise. That would stop her being able to grab Tiny.

 

[Seraphina]

I would say NO very sharply, grab her by scruff of her neck and give little shake and put her in a crate. Or shake the stones, use the newspaper, whatever shows her you are not happy. She will get the drift that it will get her in the trouble and she will stop eventually. Some things just take time. I find the same thing with barking, but in the end they learn. In meanwhile I would not leave the yorkie alone with her. Actually, i would never leave such small dog alone with a growing up pup in any case. :luck:

 

[harrysmum]

>When she has done it infront of me I have said "NO" really sharply and a friend who is a behaviourist has said to hold her by the collar and put her as low to the ground as possible, ie her face is on the ground, this shows her she is not "top dog". It works when I am around, but as soon as I am out of the room she reverts back.
Well it will because what you are doing is showing that you are top over Billie.  Tiny isn't doing it herself.  This is the whole problem of trying to sort out dominance between dogs.  As soon as the human is out of the way then it's down to the dogs themselves. 

Has your behaviourist friend actually seen this happening?  I would be worried about the shaking part of the behaviour if that was to escalate then Tiny could be hurt badly.  Especially if she starts to make a noise.  I would be worry about Billie's prey drive kicking in.  I've never seen any of my dogs try to shake another one.  But others on here might have in which case I could be over reacting.

I think that the problem could have serious consequences and so I'd suggest that you get a good behaviourist to come to your house and see what is going on and that way they can advise you best.

I would muzzle Billie when I wasn't in the room to supervise.  That would stop her being able to grab Tiny.

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Yes, my friend has seen it, the problem being I have to intervene apparently because Billie pins Tiny down from the back of her neck and she cannot move to retaliate and put Billie in her place. It therefore lies to me to tell her "no". If she just went around her neck Tiny would be able to move and snap to tell her.

Difficult one this, Carol my friend is of the opinion that she shouldn't be living with Tiny as it isn't so much her behaviour that needs to be addressed but her natural instinct and you can't take that away from a dog.

Thank you for your comments, I am worried and seriously thinking about muzzling her.

 

[jezza]

If the pebbles don't work perhaps you should get a loud speaker (w00t) Only kidding!!!

Don't know what else to suggest really. Only thing would be to never leave her alone with Tiny - easier said than done I suppose. Have you ever tried to 'set her up' so to speak? I saw it on Its me or the dog once! The idea is that you hide in the next room, so Billie doesn't know you can see (they used a web cam on the program) and when you see her pinning Tiny down you can run in and distract her and let her know your not happy. Don't know if this may be worth a try.

I've also read about 'setting the dog up' training in a book called The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. Might be worth a read. It isn't written that well (imo) but is very interesting when you get into it!

The thing with the muzzle might be that she will always have to wear it as you won't have enough oppotunities to stop her aggressive behaviour ie. she will not be able to attack Tiny but she may still want to.

When I got my second pup my first dog beat him up mercilessly (and she still does :- " ) but now I can see its only through play. They were also pretty evenly matched sizewise from the start. Not the case with Billies and Tiny though.

Good luck :luck:

 

[graciepup]

Billie the whippet joined our family a couple of months ago, she is just over a year old and has fitted in beautifully apart from....
She is being extremely dominant over my 3 year old yorkie bitch.  Tiny the yorkie can hold her own but Billie keeps going up behind her, pinning her down then trying to shake her by the neck, she doesn't try to do this with my other whippet, they do the usual shaking with their toys and I know this is a typical hound reaction but I just don't know how to deal with it with my yorkie.  Tiny can't move her head round to retaliate and so is starting to get hurt.

Billie is crated when we are out and at night to give Tiny a break but when I am at home I don't have eyes in the back of my head and am worried Billie will go over the top.

Any ideas or thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Annette

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Hi Annette

It sounds as though Billie feels she has top dog status.That includes over you and the dogs.You need to bring her down to the bottom of the pack.Changes have to be made to how you feed her ,make a fuss of her etc etc.Everything you do with the dogs always make Billie last ie:feeding,fussing,leads on etc.As Billie was new to the pack you would have made her feel very welcome and important which is totally normal, but by doing this she now believes she is top dog.Once her status is known she will react much better to your commands if she does go for Tiny.

This is only my oponion as this has worked on my clients dogs.Hope this helps

Claire and Grace

 

[Macha]

I would say NO very sharply, grab her by scruff of her neck and give little shake and put her in a crate.  Or shake the stones, use the newspaper, whatever shows her you are not happy.  She will get the drift that it will get her in the trouble and she will stop eventually.  Some things just take time.  I find the same thing with barking, but in the end they learn.  In meanwhile I would not leave the yorkie alone with her.  Actually, i would never leave such small dog alone with a growing up pup in any case.  :luck:

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yes, I do think a big part of the problem is simply the sizes of the dogs. My lurcher does this with my whippet, but doesn't hurt him (he is able to control his biten - I let him chew on my hand playfully sometimes and it doesn't hurt) and also the whippet isn't that much smaller and is able to fight back. It is a mixture of play and dominance issues; I have seen my lurcher get aggressive with other dogs that annoyed him (yapping and nipping at him or trying to mount him) and the behaviour was different. I'm now very careful with him around strange dogs, but am not worried about leaving him alone in the house with the whippet. So I hope in your case this is something that you will be able to manage as suggested by Seraphina.

 

[BeeJay]

The problem is the dogs at some point will have to cope on the own without Annette being around. Even if it's just when she pops to the loo.

At that point the pack leader isn't in the room she's not there. So who is the pack leader? It is very, very hard to live with a pack that isn't settled or sorted out and NO amount of human insistence on being pack leader is going to sort out who is who amongst the dogs. They will have a hierarchy too. When a pack leader is absent the next in line takes over. If the dogs haven't sorted out who is next in line then .....................

It isn't for any human to decide who is where in a pack because once the human is taken out of the equation the dogs have to decide for themselves. So you can only lower a dog that is naturally lower. ie make sure that you haven't inadvertently raised up the dog yourself and caused the problems. So the pack hierarchy has to be read very acurately in order to do this. Which is why IMO a pack always has to be seen by an very experienced behaviourist/trainer. Best done by an outsider.

Re behaviour modification and why to use a muzzle.

To build a behaviour in a dog you get it to perform a task and then reward it. BUT after the first few repeats you don't continue to reward everytime because that won't strengthen the behaviour. You reward intermittently and that will make the dog work harder to get the reward. In the end of course you phase out the rewards. Now to get rid of a behaviour.

You have to reverse that. As intermittent rewards makes the behaviour stronger then you have to make sure that the dog can't perform that behaviour at all. In this case Billie is getting her reward by grabbing Tiny around the neck. Hence the muzzling. Muzzling will work better than keeping the dogs separate at all times because they can still interact.

>I've also read about 'setting the dog up' training in a book called The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. Might be worth a read. It isn't written that well (imo) but is very interesting when you get into it!

One of the best books written on dog behaviour IMO.

>Yes, my friend has seen it, the problem being I have to intervene apparently because Billie pins Tiny down from the back of her neck and she cannot move to retaliate and put Billie in her place. It therefore lies to me to tell her "no". If she just went around her neck Tiny would be able to move and snap to tell her.

Oh yes if you see it happening then you have to stop it AND it should stop at once, when you say so. If Billie isn't listening to you then I'd say very firmly HOW DARE YOU! and then put her in a crate for 'time out'. I'd pick her up because that's very demoting (dogs aren't naturally carried once past the age when a bitch could do it), she should be wearing a collar so that you can stop her getting free of your arms. If you haven't got a crate then put her out of the room. The biggest punishment that you can give to a dog is ignoring them. Dogs crave attention from their owner and punishment is a form of attention, which is why physical punishment, shouting etc often doesn't work. Remember to reward her good behaviour as well, that is really important.

Difficult one this, Carol my friend is of the opinion that she shouldn't be living with Tiny as it isn't so much her behaviour that needs to be addressed but her natural instinct and you can't take that away from a dog.

The grabbing the back of the neck doesn't worry me it's the shaking that does. I have a suspicion that Carol's right. You didn't have Billie as a pup did you? So how was she living before. What was she doing before. Not meaning that she's nasty or vicious in anyway but it could be learnt behaviour or a strong prey drive that is inappropriate in your situation. Your biggest priority at the moment is making sure that Tiny is safe. I'm hoping that by muzzling Billie Tiny will be able to sort matters out for herself AND it will break the cycle of Billie's behaviour and you reinforcing things with getting through to Billie that you won't tolerate that kind of behaviour will stop it.

 

Living in a house where you are concerned about two dogs alone together is almost impossible and very stressful.

Hope that you can get this sorted out. Let us know how you get on. :luck: