Would You Put Your Dog Through Surgery

[Suzycbee]

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One of the worst is neutering at 4 months old. For convenience

Why is this one of the "worst" and strangest things to do to a dog? Many puppies are desexed before they leave the breeder, meaning they are desexed at 3 months of age. Not strange at all, widely accepted and im sure this is not one of the worst surgical interventions a dog must endure.

How can you say that? No dog should be neutered until it is fully mature, it's cruel. No vet I know would do that just for convenience. For a bitch it is major surgery.

I agree. "de-sexing" - what sort of a term is that? - at 3 months old is cruel. In which country is this done?

 

[~Annie~]

One of the worst is neutering at 4 months old. For convenience

Why is this one of the "worst" and strangest things to do to a dog? Many puppies are desexed before they leave the breeder, meaning they are desexed at 3 months of age. Not strange at all, widely accepted and im sure this is not one of the worst surgical interventions a dog must endure.

How can you say that? No dog should be neutered until it is fully mature, it's cruel. No vet I know would do that just for convenience. For a bitch it is major surgery.

It horrifies me that anyone anywhere widely accepts the notion that it's ok to desex before a dog is physically mature ... as already said hormones serve many purposes. Prepubertal spay/neuter is favoured by animal adoption agencies for obvious reasons, and many studies suggest that the younger the dog the quicker the recovery time, but that doesn't make it a given that there are no long term effects on the health, physique or temperament of individual animals, e.g. there is a delay in the closure of growth plates in the bones of prepubertally sterilized dogs relative to post pubertally sterilized dogs, a fact of particular significance in larger breeds and breeds with long leg bones such as whippets. What's more there is evidence that suggests that where spaying a mature bitch is a good idea in terms of long term health, an intact male dog is statistically better off in that regard than a neutered one. And many of the studies that the pro prepubertal spay/neuter lobby draw on actually relate to cats where science suggests that the pros do outweigh the cons, and not to dogs where the reverse may well be the case. At the end of the day prepubertal spay/neuter is done for human convenience and it doesn't suprise me that there is a lot of literature attempting to justify a practice that most would surely instinctively shun.

Annie

 

[seaspot_run]

The early spay/neuter is not driven over here in the USA by the show breeders, but by the veterinarians. There is a lot of propaganda out there which says that you reduce your risk of certain cancers to zero if you spay/neuter very young.

I don't agree with it, but it's the vets who are pushing it, not the show breeders. It was really quite a trend here about 5/6 years ago but some of the popular opinion has turned against it. I prefer to recommend altering after full height has been reached and the dog looks more developed physically.

That being said, although I do not think artificial testicles are an issue in the breed ring, Americans do more surgical stuff on their dogs and some of it is dodgy and against the rules of the AKC. If caught, though, you pay a pretty severe price. It seems that some people are more likely to get the blind eye turned than others. And let me be clear, that if you are able to get away with it, and win big, people think nothing of buying from those big-winning kennels which "fix things". Virtue may be its own reward, but it doesn't sell many prospects.

There is cheating in all sports and competitions. I get depressed sometimes about what goes on in dogs, and then I look at things like cycling and dang, someone is caught doping every other day it seems. Anything to get a competitive advantage. People are people no matter where you go. There will always be honest people and those who try to get away with cheating.

 

[stonegrace]

I agree. "de-sexing" - what sort of a term is that? - at 3 months old is cruel. In which country is this done?

That "term" is also used here rather than "Neutering", so is "sterilisation"!

Obviously things are different over here in Australia than the UK or USA! It is widely accepted to perform paediatric "desexing" here, some disagree with it, many breeders do do it. There is NO scientific evidence to suggest that it is cruel, interferes with normal development nor hinder hormone production. There have been studies done to show this. Working in the veterinary industry and in repro vet hospitals for over 17 years, i saw it regularly, rarely did we have any problems, many reputable, respected registered breeders do it with their puppise before they are rehomed. The same goes for kittens.

But anyway, its a little off topic!



Edited for Sp.

 

[Noise]

has there been a study looking into how this kind of neautering affects the dogs later development and maturity? would like to see one. or a study that de sexing after a dog has matured has negative effects?

the question I think is - why?! why on earth would you neuter a pup before it goes to its new home? what are the pros?

 

[Esty]

has there been a study looking into how this kind of neautering affects the dogs later development and maturity? would like to see one. or a study that de sexing after a dog has matured has negative effects?
the question I think is - why?! why on earth would you neuter a pup before it goes to its new home? what are the pros?

I think it's to prevent new owners breeding a line that the breeder wants to 'own'. It's like insurance that either they won't have competition or that their line won't get 'spoiled' (whatever that means) by people who have different ideas. it seems very common in Australia for some reason.

Either way it's still barbaric. Can you imagine sterilising a child at toddler stage and thinking that won't have any effect on hormone production/ body shape etc??!! My vet won't neuter before a year old unless there are good reasons (medical/ behavioural) so it's NOT an accepted medical viewpoint that neutering babies is a good idea.

And talking of 'altering' when my American cousin came to visit she was very surprised that my cat lived mostly indoors and still had all his claws! She didn't support declawing herself but said every house cat she knew in the States had been declawed. I think that's awful, especially as there are more wild animals in the States that a domesticated cat needs to defend itself against. Many Americans prefer to declaw (Keep the furniture nice! Honestly!) and keep the cat indoors all the time which I think is doubly mean.

 

[Noise]

has there been a study looking into how this kind of neautering affects the dogs later development and maturity? would like to see one. or a study that de sexing after a dog has matured has negative effects?
the question I think is - why?! why on earth would you neuter a pup before it goes to its new home? what are the pros?

I think it's to prevent new owners breeding a line that the breeder wants to 'own'. It's like insurance that either they won't have competition or that their line won't get 'spoiled' (whatever that means) by people who have different ideas. it seems very common in Australia for some reason.

Either way it's still barbaric. Can you imagine sterilising a child at toddler stage and thinking that won't have any effect on hormone production/ body shape etc??!! My vet won't neuter before a year old unless there are good reasons (medical/ behavioural) so it's NOT an accepted medical viewpoint that neutering babies is a good idea.

well, I knew the answer... I'll keep to myself what I think about these respectable breeders. suppose their lines started when one day they gave birth to a whippet pup themselves.

 

[stonegrace]

I think its more to do with breeders ensuring the new owners of their puppies and kittens - dont become backyard breeders and breed their pet to some random unregistered dog, perpetuating the issue of unwanted dogs and puppy farming. Its not so much about protecting lines. It may be more of a problem here in Australia than other countries, im not sure. A lot of the animal shelters and rehoming centres also desex their puppies and kittens before rehoming - again to stop irresponsible people breeding them.

In the repro hospital i last worked at (Im a midwife now so it has been a year or 2 since i worked there) there were often articles floating around about the debates surrounding early desexing and the studies done that shows there are no adverse effects. Particular equipment and drugs are used to ensure the safety of the animal and a vet experienced in paed desexings only performed the surgery.

I personally dont do it, but the reason i brought it up was because i was surprised that people thought it was such a barbaric thing to do, when it is done reasonably often here. I guess its what we are used to doing, for example - a previous poster mentioned inside cats being declawed in the US is the norm, however it is unethical for vets to do it here in Australia and i would be shocked if a client requested that it be done!

 

[Seraphina]

Unfortunately, our law makers here in OZ have recently introduced law, in many areas, that pet dogs have to be registered with council by the time they are 3 months and at that stage have to be de-sexed. There have been many claims of "scientific" studies, done by the pro early spay/neuter lobby, which claimed there is only benefits and no set back.s More realistic studies show that there are pros and cons - like with everything. The thing is that de-sexing very young animal is considerably easier operation, vets just love it. But early desexed dogs do have slightly increased chance of some bone cancers, slightly more chance of incontinence and some other problems. Early spayed bitches do have slightly less chance of mammary cancer, but what the advocates for early spaying do not say is mammary cancer in bitches is extremely rare anyway, and is very easily treated. In males, early castration does not prevent prostate cancer; some research indicates it actually increases the occurrence.

I would not recommend spaying/castrating until dog is reasonably mature.

 

[seaspot_run]

I think its more to do with breeders ensuring the new owners of their puppies and kittens - dont become backyard breeders and breed their pet to some random unregistered dog, perpetuating the issue of unwanted dogs and puppy farming. Its not so much about protecting lines.

For those breeders who are ok with it, this is definitely the reason. I'm surprised by some of the very judgemental and harsh attitudes displayed here. Most of the breeders I know who are proponents of early spay/neuter or even will have their pets altered before they release them to any pet home are those who have been burned badly by someone who bought a pet and lied to them about the sort of home they were offering, and that breeder has had to endure the hearbreak and humiliation of seeing their lines show up in rescue and puppy mill dogs.

Nobody who is fronting for a mill will buy a pup which is already desexed.

I'm not in favor of it, but I would not presume to judge these people if I had not walked in their same shoes. JMO.

Declawing cats is a different subject. My neighbors have a declawed OUTDOOR cat. How STUPID is THAT??? I live in fear my dogs will get loose and kill it. So, there is me being harsh.

As for debarking, I would consider it a last resort to avoid having to get rid of the dog. It has never come to that for me, thank goodness, but Whippets aren't usually that barky and most of us keep our dogs indoors. I've known debarked dogs and I don't see that their personality is in any way affected. They still bark their fool heads off, it's just that the neighbors can't hear them and then decide to sue the owner.

 

[Esty]

I can sort of see the 'puppy mill' argument but why not get tougher laws against dog breeding for profit/ number of dogs a person can own etc? Get the animal welfare people on the case rather than the vets . Demand that all dogs are registered. Also, it seems a bit elitist that just a few breeders would have the monpoly on a breed - thats how we end up going down breeding cul-de-sacs only to find out too late that an unfavourable trait has unknowingly been concentrated. Everybody has to start somewhere - what is the definition of a backyard breeder anyway? My pups were bred from a much loved pet, no profit made by the breeder, two strong lines brought together to produce healthy dogs. The pups were well socialised, trained and we still meet up with their Mum occasionally. On paper the breeder is probably a 'back yard' breeder but I defy anyone to say that these pups did not have the best start in life. I have no intention of breeding my dogs but I'd hate to have had to buy neutered eight week olds. Just doesn't seem right IMO.

Also, rescues in the UK make people buying pups sign a contract to say they will get the dogs neutered/ spayed at about 6 months old which must be a better way of doing it than operating on babies?

 

[Noise]

a BYB can have many varied definitions. I believe most puppies on the market, not just in whippets are produced by people who want to witness ''the wonder of life'', they love their pets very much, but they just can't be bothered with shows (funnily enoug, they actually haven't been anywhere near a show), boring, pointless, elitist, but they can certainly bother with putting their bitch through giving birth, risk their bitch's life in the name of, well, nothing. since they have no interest in pedigrees/lines etc. they produce pups that won't be good enough for either showing/racing/coursing. the pups will go on to pet homes and the cycle carries on.

they're not bad people, they're not what most would consider puppy farmers, they are just uneducated.

then of course there's the puppy mill types, doubt they acquire their breeding stock from show breeders.

 

[Esty]

At the risk of appearing sarcastic and flippant, you could put that argument forward about people.

Not many of us will win a beauty pageant or Olympic race but it doesn't mean we are not worthwhile and shouldn't have been born

Anyway, on a personal level, I know that some of the pups in my dogs' litter are being raced and worked so they are fit for purpose (their dam comes from showlines and sire from Mike Brown's working lines). I know there are some unscrupulous uneducated breeders out there but just because someone wins shows with their dogs doesn't always mean they are the best people either. We all take risks with our dogs, whether it's breeding them, running them, working them. Most people don't see breeding their dog as risking its life in the same way people don't consciously risk their dogs' lives in order to race them.

Just playing devil's advocate...and we are getting off the original topic. In answer to that, I would not have cosmetic surgery done on my dog but if for example, they had an accident and were having a GA anyway I would hope the vet would do their best to restore the dog as much as possible eg take longer over stitches to ensure limited scarring. I hate docking and ear cropping.

 

[larruu]

I've recently heard of this happening with other breeds from breeders at shows etc. I thought the kennel club had rules on this????. I certainly wouldn't put any of my dogs through the risk of surgery just to improve it's chances in the show ring, i think far too much of my dogs to even consider this.
I appreciate that alot of kc breeds to inherit problems that from time to time require surgery. I'm not questioning this as if the dog was suffering and surgery would improve it's quality of life then it would be criminal to deny it surgery.

what i am asking is do you think it's right to put a dog through surgery just to improve it's chances in the show ring??? And I would be interested to know if it happens with whippets. If you know of any and don't wish to put it on an open forum then you can pm me in confidence.

I've heard of reluctant testicles being stitched down , does that count ?

 

[~Annie~]

Not sure we are getting off the topic actually, or at least there is certainly a connection when breeders do have babies sterilised to protect their show lines (and it's clear some do) ... that's still potentially about surgery undertaken to improve your kennels chances in the ring ... although I appreciate that many breeders in favour of prepubertal sterilisation don't have this end in mind.

And on a different note ... there's an interesting moral and ethical argument behind the notion that some dog owners, e.g. those with successful show lines, have a greater 'right' to breed than those with a nice family pet. Some would say no one should breed (I recently got chucked off a rescue forum for buying a puppy even though I have fundraised and volunteered for rescues for years), some might argue that only those who properly understand the implications of their choice of dam and sire re. the pups physique, long term health, etc. should breed, and others might argue that fitness for purpose and a guarantee of a home for life are the only issue. It's an interesting one ... maybe we need another thread (although it's been debated before I think).

Annie

 

[seaspot_run]

Unfortunately, our law makers here in OZ have recently introduced law, in many areas, that pet dogs have to be registered with council by the time they are 3 months and at that stage have to be de-sexed. There have been many claims of "scientific" studies, done by the pro early spay/neuter lobby, which claimed there is only benefits and no set back.s

This has been the case here, as well. A lot of areas are moving towards outright bans on any pet not spayed/neutered (unless you pay a really high kennel/breeder license fee and submit to annual inspections), which means that you would have to have this done right away after getting your puppy in order to be legal. Many of the people voting on these laws have no real animal sense or dog knowledge--they are just responding to the anti-breeder lobby and groups like PETA.

There are going to be fewer and fewer places where people can be hobby breeders and operate legally without going commercial and incorporating it as a business.

Tacking down testicles is done here. It's pretty hard to prove that happened, as a judge or fellow exhibitor, though. I guess I feel sorry for people who want to win that badly that they would cheat to that extent. I do know of people who bought intact male pets from at least one well-known show kennel here and found that this operation had been attempted when they took the dog in to their vet to be neutered. Of course, nothing was done other than gossip--nothing is EVER done. Since the dog was never shown (as the operation didn't work), no rule was broken. People won't speak out....they either don't care or they just don't want the grief. I wonder about the others, though--surely there were attempts that succeeded. Who were those dogs? I'll never know and the owners aren't talking.

Karen Lee

 

[chelynnah]

Also, rescues in the UK make people buying pups sign a contract to say they will get the dogs neutered/ spayed at about 6 months old which must be a better way of doing it than operating on babies?

Sorry to disagree with you but this is definitely NOT true of all rescues. MANY MANY rescues in the UK paediatric spay/neuter puppies before releasing them - and in fact I would say that most do. Our Chelsea (now 11.5yo) was spayed when we got her at 12 weeks. And for what it's worth we have never had any issues with her regarding spay incontinence, and even though she'd had the op only a couple weeks earlier you couildn't tell. It's actually (from a practical point of view) a much easier surgery and less stressful on a small/young dog.

I'm not saying this is the way *I* would do things, but I had no issues accepting a dog from rescue who had already been done. As for much of the rest of this discussion, Karen has pretty much summed up what I would have said. While it's not for me, there are very legitimate reasons for making some of those choices regarding early spay/neuter, and who am I to tar everyone with the same brush. I get so tired of hearing 'breeders egos' this and 'breeders egos' that. If it weren't for breeders most people on this list wouldn't have the dog they have now.

Wendy

 

[GotWhippet?]

I desex pups before they go to their new homes. I have desexed 3 month old pups and older. I have read numerous literature articles before making my decision to have dogs, sold as pets, desexed before they go to their forever homes.

The hormone issue indicates that pre-pubital desexing dogs are slightly increased CHANCE of being taller than their litter mates. Why is this a problem? I don't see any problems with this. The hormone issue in one of the older articles also indicated that the low oestrogen levels in pre-pubital desexed dogs results in urinary incontinence. Well then why don't my bitches have incontinence when they are in season and why don't they have incontinence when they are carrying a litter? I have also read that urinary incontinence can also be attributed to man (vet not experienced with early desexing) also older bitches STILL have a chance of urinary incontinence from desexing.

I suggest that anyone who researches this area does it properly. Look at the pros and cons. Then after that look at the journal articles in depth and critically analyse the study. How many subjects are used? One of the articles I read regarding urinary incontinence involved a study of only 20 dogs. It would only take 1 dog to completely skew the percentages in favour of what the author was trying to achieve, and it did.

In my last litter I have so far desexed 2x 3 month old pups and 1x 7 month old pup. The 2 younger ones recovered quicker from the anaesthetic. The incision in the dog was about 3mm and the bitch was 1 cm. The incision in the 7 month old male pup was 4cm. The bigger dog had a bigger wound which took longer to heal. All 3 desexed dogs are not significantly taller or shorter than my entire whippets that are in the backyard. The 3 pets don't have incontinence. The 7 month old pup spent longer on the surgery table. The 3 month old pup had her op done in about 15mins. The 3 month old dog was done in not quite 10 mins (his was very very quick). I also get a reproductive specialist to perform the surgery.

The reason I early age desex is to prevent my whippets ending up in puppy mills. I know there are a couple of BYB of whippets in the area I live plus registered whippet breeders that seem to ALWAYS have pups for sale on DOL (an Australian dog forum). I don't want my dogs to go to these people. When someone can 100% guarantee my dogs will not end up like these BYB dogs then I will continue doing what I do. As far as people getting dogs via the back door well it won't be mine either. I don't want a pup that I sold as a pet to end up in the ring or bred from. I only want the best of my pups to end up in the ring and the best bitches/dogs bred from.

There was an article here recently about an Afghan breeder selling a "pet quality" dog (not desexed and on limited registration). The dog ended up in Asia, was shown and had litters. The Asian kennel club (can't remember the country) had re-issued the papers because the dog had a recognised pedigree from Australia, even though it was on limited registration and not to be bred from.

My priorities are: what kind of home is my dog going to? what are these peoples breeding practices? I don't really care if they have different lines to my own as long as they have quality dogs. I don't care if I am called barbaric with desexing my dogs before rehoming, at least I know they won't end up in puppy mills or involved in any other unscruplulous breeding practices.

As far as tacking down testicles :wacko:

 

[seaspot_run]

I get so tired of hearing 'breeders egos' this and 'breeders egos' that. If it weren't for breeders most people on this list wouldn't have the dog they have now.
Wendy

:thumbsup:

Most people would have pariah dogs and learn to like it.

 

[liza]

has there been a study looking into how this kind of neautering affects the dogs later development and maturity? would like to see one. or a study that de sexing after a dog has matured has negative effects?
the question I think is - why?! why on earth would you neuter a pup before it goes to its new home? what are the pros?

i was told if you have a dog / bitch spayed or neautered before a year old it can cause health problems