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Yes but they only retract, they do not travel all the up to where they came from originally. In an adult they ought to be far too big for that





There are obviously a lot of handy excuses being circulated amongst breeders as to why a puppy may "seem" to have two normally descended testicles and then have one move up into the scrotum and disappear, but we frankly do not believe any of them. Little pups may yo-yo testicles around when groped by people trying to determine there are two of them, but while one may be slightly higher than the other both should be evident below the canal and in a fully descended position despite the groping. This notion that they are sucking them up from a fully descended position to way up in the abdomen and that they will, again descend, is, in my view, myth and wishes and hopes, not reality.

The simple solution for a puppy purchaser is this. If you are a breeder and the dog you may wish to purchase from a litter will be part of your breeding program, visit the litter and check it out from the time the pups are five or six weeks old. If you cannot find evidence of descended testicles in all the males at six weeks of age, small though they may be, don't make a commitment to any pup in the litter -- male or female -- and revisit the litter at 8 weeks. If you cannot visit the litter because of distance have the breeder provide proof from their vet that all dogs were considered entire by the vet at the time they were examined (usually at first shots at 8m weeks here for us). If all the males are not entire DO NOT BUY EITHER A MALE OR A BITCH FROM THE LITTER. Pass on the litter and go looking for a litter where you are satisfied all of the males in that litter are actually entire at the time of sale to new homes. This step alone would significantly reduce the number of surprises in subsequent litters.

On the other hand, if you have no plans to breed, ever, and I do mean ever, and your heart is simply in a housepet or a show dog that you will never breed yourself and you will never allow to be bred from, then you can safely buy from a litter with cryptorchids. But if the dog you buy is a big success in the show ring you have to stay steadfast to the knowledge that it came from a litter carrying testicle problems and not allow your friends, or someone who will pay you to let you breed to the dog (or take a litter from the bitch) and ensure the dog is never bred from.

We recently brought in a male from a litter in the US as our outcross line. Our partner in co-ownership of this dog personally collected the dog, examined all five of its littermates (ALL male) and confirmed they were entire with both testicles fully descended in the scrotum at 8 weeks of age, then visited the vet who had vaccinated all the pups in a previous litter of both the sire and dam, to seek confirmation that all males in both those litters from the sire and dam were entire, before we bought him. This is due dilligence. If enough people only purchase breeding quality whippets from litters where the males are all entire, much of the current problem could be solved.

It is heartbreaking to see lovely pups in a quality litter that carries problems and tell yourself that they should not, cannot be used in a breeding program, but if want to leave the breed at least as good as you found it when you got into it in the first place, you owe it to the breed to maintain standards that don't contribute to a further decline in the gene pool. One of the easiest ways of doing that is by never breeding to dogs or bitches who originate from litters where a dog was not entire.

Lanhy

Lanny

Lanny
 
alfyn said:
mikadene said:
Hi,I will try and answer your questions truthfully and with experience to boot I will tell you what I did.

On the question did I come out of the cupboard and tell folks I bred Monorchids. a great big YES. I also told folks who the sire and dam was and that was the time I leaned that the sire was producing Monorchids and so was his son. That was Ch Velindre Shea Khan and his son Velidre Lord Luke. I spoke to his breeder and he refused all knowledge of the fact but many others wrer also bitten by his deceipt. Befor useing this dog I asked his owner has he any problems and he said only he has a hip score of 25. My girl had a score of 7 so it is ok to use the dog.

Mike


I used to show & breed gsd,s for over 15 years,& quite honestly,i am amazed that you chose to use a stud dog with a hip score of 25 :wacko:

You would have had a high chance of producing puppies that ended up with bad hips,which in my mind,is far worse for the dog & owner than having a missing testicle!

OK,so you used the dog NOT knowing about the monorchid problem,but you used him knowing he had a relatively high hip score!

Would you have paid the huge vet bills for the owners who ended up with a dysplastic dog?


So you have made a statement that 25 is a high score. Tell me what is the breed average for Shepherds. Well I will tell you it is exactly 25. so after due consideration and advice from experts in this field to which I have attended many lectures and to use a dog of 25 is not uncommen and if the qualities you want are there you should use him. As a dog He was a fine specimen of the breed and did infact stamp his good looks and bone structure on all his pups. Hip dysplacia will be evedent allmost straight away, but many dogs that are dysplastic are because they had a bad upbringing. Wear and tear is the main problem because stupid people take their young puppy on very long walks and the wear on their hips is dramatic. Let me tell you the bitches of the litter which went to pet homes had low hip scores. But this is another topic.
 
Oh and can I say I have a lovely pair of males from my last litter fo sale. It's strange , all people want these days are bitches. These boys are intact in fact all 3 of them are intact and I am keeping a nice bitch myself to carry on with the lines I have borrowed from excellent breeders. I will of course in the fullness of time need some advice on the pedigree's of my dogs to see if they are compatable. That's for another day. It's been a great debate and although people have differing thought's on the subject I think the thread shows we all have an interest in this breed.

Mike
 
masta said:
05whippet said:
Strangely enough Basenji's can and some do quite frequently (especially prominent in the really ancient lines) "take up" their testes,especially when a bitch is in season,so some exhibitors have or can have trouble when showing a male and have a bitch or bitches in season.
not as strange as you think > taken from net doctor

Retractile testicles are very common and it merely means that although your testicles hang normally in your scrotum most of the time, they are pulled up by certain muscles into the groin area in certain circumstances.

Swimming, especially in cool water, will almost always cause this, as the natural tendency of the muscles in the skin surrounding the scrotum is to contract in the cold. The cremaster muscle pulls the testicle upwards and in some men into the inguinal canal that lies just above and behind the crease at the top of the leg where it joins with the abdomen.

This happens too when you are nervous or anxious as a result of stress hormones, as well as during sporting activities.

During physical exertion blood flow is diverted to the exercising muscles and away from the genitalia. Again the testicles are pulled up as a result.

During sport, the scrotum contracts to protect the testicles from harm, and in fact, retractile testicles have a protective value in contact sports for this reason.

Professional sumo wrestlers in Japan actually massage their testicles into their inguinal canals deliberately so they do not become injured during wrestling.

Thanks for that insight Masta,it is interesting. :thumbsup:
 
was Mikadene talking about whippets with hip dysplasia?

I read that the problem wasn't found in greyhounds even if they weren't exercised much they still had such strong muscles

So I thought it wasn't a problem for whippets?
 
Alba said:
was Mikadene talking about whippets with hip dysplasia?I read that the problem wasn't found in greyhounds even if they weren't exercised much they still had such strong muscles

So I thought it wasn't a problem for whippets?

No,GSD's he used to breed and show them,maybe still does??
 
sloopy said:
05whippet said:
Alba said:
was Mikadene talking about whippets with hip dysplasia?I read that the problem wasn't found in greyhounds even if they weren't exercised much they still had such strong muscles

So I thought it wasn't a problem for whippets?

No,GSD's he used to breed and show them,maybe still does??

REMOVED :oops:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:rant:

Back to hips and GSDs , whilst I was waiting for Woody at the vets the other day, a young couple had a white 12 month old GSD from low hip scoreing parents who had already had his elbows done and was being booked in for his hips (w00t)

A big handsome boy he was too ,dog not onwer :- " :cheers:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
sloopy said:
05whippet said:
Alba said:
was Mikadene talking about whippets with hip dysplasia?I read that the problem wasn't found in greyhounds even if they weren't exercised much they still had such strong muscles

So I thought it wasn't a problem for whippets?

No,GSD's he used to breed and show them,maybe still does??

REMOVED :oops:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a bit harsh and uncalled for,don't you think?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JAX said:
sloopy said:
05whippet said:
Alba said:
was Mikadene talking about whippets with hip dysplasia?I read that the problem wasn't found in greyhounds even if they weren't exercised much they still had such strong muscles

So I thought it wasn't a problem for whippets?

No,GSD's he used to breed and show them,maybe still does??

Comment removed by moderator

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Back to hips and GSDs , whilst I was waiting for Woody at the vets the other day, a young couple had a white 12 month old GSD from low hip scoreing parents who had already had his elbows done and was being booked in for his hips (w00t)

A big handsome boy he was too ,dog not onwer :- " :cheers:


Awww,poor dog,and to be having it done at so young an age too. :(
 
Last edited by a moderator:
mikadene said:
alfyn said:
mikadene said:
Hi,I will try and answer your questions truthfully and with experience to boot I will tell you what I did.

On the question did I come out of the cupboard and tell folks I bred Monorchids. a great big YES. I also told folks who the sire and dam was and that was the time I leaned that the sire was producing Monorchids and so was his son. That was Ch Velindre Shea Khan and his son Velidre Lord Luke. I spoke to his breeder and he refused all knowledge of the fact but many others wrer also bitten by his deceipt. Befor useing this dog I asked his owner has he any problems and he said only he has a hip score of 25. My girl had a score of 7 so it is ok to use the dog.

Mike


I used to show & breed gsd,s for over 15 years,& quite honestly,i am amazed that you chose to use a stud dog with a hip score of 25 :wacko:

You would have had a high chance of producing puppies that ended up with bad hips,which in my mind,is far worse for the dog & owner than having a missing testicle!

OK,so you used the dog NOT knowing about the monorchid problem,but you used him knowing he had a relatively high hip score!

Would you have paid the huge vet bills for the owners who ended up with a dysplastic dog?


So you have made a statement that 25 is a high score. Tell me what is the breed average for Shepherds. Well I will tell you it is exactly 25. so after due consideration and advice from experts in this field to which I have attended many lectures and to use a dog of 25 is not uncommen and if the qualities you want are there you should use him. As a dog He was a fine specimen of the breed and did infact stamp his good looks and bone structure on all his pups. Hip dysplacia will be evedent allmost straight away, but many dogs that are dysplastic are because they had a bad upbringing. Wear and tear is the main problem because stupid people take their young puppy on very long walks and the wear on their hips is dramatic. Let me tell you the bitches of the litter which went to pet homes had low hip scores. But this is another topic.

What a load of garbage :eek:

Now i'm not going to get into a discussion,or heated debate on this subject on a whippet forum,so i will pm you when i have time,& then maybe you can answer my question!!!
 
to get back to cryptorchidism, is it true that pups can seem okay but then the testicles retreat and don't descend again?

(sorry if that was already discussed in this thread, it probably was but 4 pages is a lot to go through)

I saw a litter of 9 week old pups today. All 4 males had their testicles in about the right place (so aren't short -corded) but I wouldn't say they were all firmly in the scrotum sac and I'm wondering if there is any risk of testicles disappearing before they mature?
 
our friends dog had both descended when he left Ireland and when he arrived over here one had retreated ! so was bought as a pet and at 8 mths had the op to remove both ( the other was still abdominal )
 
I don't understand, how could it be descended and then go all the way back into the abdomen (back through inguinal ligaments?)?
 
I am not an expert on the physiology/anatomy but all I know is that it has happened to me twice in my 9 or so litters of whippets over a period of 19 years.

Twice I have seen fully descended testicles in male pups only to have them disappear at a later date - the first was slow to lose them completely but he had them all the way through his baby weeks to 10wks of age when he went to his new home (my mother) and at 12 weeks they started to go up and down and by the time he was six months old they were gone.

The other had his at 4-6 weeks and by the time he was 8 weeks they were gone. He left me at 9 weeks and at 16 weeks still did not have them. Lost contact with the owners after that.

I've had so many 'experts' tell me it can't happen but I've witnessed it.
 
I wouldn't have believed it ( said so somewhere on k9 in past :oops: ) until it happened to one of my boys. He had both nice big and very firmly position in scrottum when he left us at about 10 (?) weeks, yet apparently by the time he was 16 weeks they were both gone, and stayed up until he was castrated at 12 months.

I belive they can also disapear if the pup would be hit hard on them. Friend claims that big impact can cause the testicle to rapture and then just disapear, has anybody heard about anything like that? I actually know of a Borzoi pup who definitely had both, was sold to a country property of few hundred acres with sheep and cows, few months later his new owner discovered one testicle went missing. They tried to castrate him later on but the errant ball was never found, and the posibilty was mentioned that he was injured by some of the farm animals at one time. :unsure:
 
Ok a little away from it happening in pup's - my first whippet (who is still with me) was successfully shown until the age of 4, I started to notice one of his testicles was begining to shrink, I had all sorts of tests done to try to detect why it was happening with no answers. The testicle had all but disappeared when I decided to neuter him as the other testicle was showing signs of the same thing. I had a full scrotum neuter done on him (poor baby) with the testicles sent for testing, again nothing showed up in the results. We even tested for a disease found in NZ (just encase) that can be derived from sheep - again the result was negative.

He has never had anything else go wrong and is still active and healthy at his tender old age.

Has anyone else had this happen to a dog? Just curious!

Cristina
 
Mychaka said:
Ok a little away from it happening in pup's - my first whippet (who is still with me) was successfully shown until the age of 4, I started to notice one of his testicles was begining to shrink, I had all sorts of tests done to try to detect why it was happening with no answers. The testicle had all but disappeared when I decided to neuter him as the other testicle was showing signs of the same thing. I had a full scrotum neuter done on him (poor baby) with the testicles sent for testing, again nothing showed up in the results. We even tested for a disease found in NZ (just encase) that can be derived from sheep - again the result was negative.He has never had anything else go wrong and is still active and healthy at his tender old age.

Has anyone else had this happen to a dog? Just curious!

Cristina

Yes I know of a Whippet of my breeding (not owned by me) that the same sort of thing happened to. He had been used successfully at stud, progeny all OK and his testicles then started to shrink and he became infertile. He was not castrated though, as far as I know (haven't spoken to his owner for ages) but remained fit and healthy.

I have also had a puppy that was entire up to 8/10 weeks of age, he went to his new home and one started to go up and down and disappeared (not up into his abdomen) but could not be got down again. He remained a cryptorchid (but was not castrated) until he died at a fairly ripe old age.
 
Roedeane said:
Avalonia said:
dawn said:
At 13 weeks I am sure they will be up and down like yo-yos. 
Why do people worry about this problem at such an early age, give them a chance to drop.

I bet u were a monorchid at 13weeks :D

At the risk of incurring the wrath of those who pretend that monorchidism or cryptorchidism is not a problem in some whippet lines, I am astonished that anyone would think that undescended testicle or testicltes at 13 weeks is anything approaching normal. It is NOT.

In my view and in our experience, testes should be obvious and evident -- as we experience in our dogs -- as early as 4 weeks. And at 8 weeks they should be clearly and fully descended. Our vet certifies, in writing, this fact with every single whippet dog we breed and we are proud that in over 30 litters in more than 20 years we have had exactly one undescended testicle, and that was a short corded testicle held just above the canal where it needed to descend.

It is high time that people quit pretending that some lines do not have huge problems with undescended testicles while encouraging people to buy these dogs and massage the males to assist them descend their testicles. It is also time for "breeders" to quit quietly placing monorchid males, and then keeping their sisters and breeding from them later on.

Hello? It takes two to tango and the undescended testicle, or the cryptorchid does not occur simply down the male line. We firmly believe that it comes down through lines that are riddled with problems and dogs and bitches carry the problem and pass it on. Yet people continue to place the males and pretend they did not exist, while continuing to breed on with their sisters. There is a problem here that people are refusing to recognize. Simply put, lines with these problems should not be continued with. Everything in the line should be spayed and neutered. Full stop.

Lanny Morry

Toatally agree with you on this point Lanny :thumbsup:

And me WFIW

Totally agree
 
I suppose it's difficult to evaluate the progeny if the male pups all look normal when they are weaned but some retract their testicles after going to a new home.

also you might unknowingly breed a carrier-dog several times before s/he produces a cryptorchid

I do know of dogs and bitches who were known to have produced cryptorchids who were bred again (albeit not to each other). The thinking seems to be -- and I don't know if this is correct or not -- that the problem is so prevalent that if we stopped breeding dogs who had cryptorchid progeny or siblings there would be hardly any dogs left to breed from.

I'd be more concerned about the stud dogs who are carriers because they can sire so many litters by so many different bitches and really spread whatever genes are responsible.
 

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