What a poor understanding of animal behaviour you have,so sad to read you had dogs,you should not be allowed to have any with that mentality!Biting them back is the most appalling stupidity anyone could try, and should you truly have practice such barbaric methods,as you claim to have done , then I am sorry you got away with it without being prosecuted for animal cruelty .What an ignorant "recommendation" you dared to post.Hopefully no one "listens" to it.
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Aggressive 4 Year Old Beagle Biting Us Hard
- Thread starter desperatebeagleowner
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What a poor understanding of animal behaviour you have,so sad to read you had dogs,you should not be allowed to have any with that mentality!Biting them back is the most appalling stupidity anyone could try, and should you truly have practice such barbaric methods,as you claim to have done , then I am sorry you got away with it without being prosecuted for animal cruelty .What an ignorant "recommendation" you dared to post.Hopefully no one "listens" to it.
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Agree 100% with the last two posts, biting back for heavens sake ???
Like I said I knew my suggestion would upset a few people here, but how do you think puppies are taught proper and acceptable behaviour from their parents? - growling, snapping and nipping/biting.
I will admit biting the dog back is not the first thing I would resort to, but it is something I will do to a dog that refuses to stop biting - it's done to children for christ sake to teach them not to bite. And as I pointed out I am used to dealing with aggressive dogs and have even encouraged aggression in dogs - training attack and guard dogs.
I agree with building a trusting loving relationship with your dog, but the dog has to understand that there are boundaries and consequences for crossing them. It's one thing for a dog to bite its master, but your dog biting a complete stranger will land you in a lot of expensive trouble, even possibly jail.
Just out of curiosity though a member in this thread suggested having the dog put to sleep - A.K.A killed. Isn't that far more extreme than biting the dog back? And that seemed to provoke less of a reaction and no personal attacks like my suggestion has.
nomad
When you have a mouthful of dog ear your face is well out of reach of their mouths. And the dog turning it's head to try and get your face into biting range won't work.
I will admit biting the dog back is not the first thing I would resort to, but it is something I will do to a dog that refuses to stop biting - it's done to children for christ sake to teach them not to bite. And as I pointed out I am used to dealing with aggressive dogs and have even encouraged aggression in dogs - training attack and guard dogs.
I agree with building a trusting loving relationship with your dog, but the dog has to understand that there are boundaries and consequences for crossing them. It's one thing for a dog to bite its master, but your dog biting a complete stranger will land you in a lot of expensive trouble, even possibly jail.
Just out of curiosity though a member in this thread suggested having the dog put to sleep - A.K.A killed. Isn't that far more extreme than biting the dog back? And that seemed to provoke less of a reaction and no personal attacks like my suggestion has.
nomad
Biting a dog is to deliberately inflict pain and injury on it. There can never be any justification for that.
I believe that if you have to resort to such brutal behaviour, you have no true understanding of dogs.
Dogs have limited intelligence and biting is instinctive when they feel threatened or anxious. You're a human being. Aren't you talking here about copying the dog's behaviour?
I'm surprised you're trying to justify such a shocking suggestion. Believe me, you're very much in the minority.
I believe that if you have to resort to such brutal behaviour, you have no true understanding of dogs.
Dogs have limited intelligence and biting is instinctive when they feel threatened or anxious. You're a human being. Aren't you talking here about copying the dog's behaviour?
I'm surprised you're trying to justify such a shocking suggestion. Believe me, you're very much in the minority.
And how many police officers are currently patroling the streets with dogs that you have been involved in training?
Believe it or not you can actually bite somebody without inflicting pain or injury - it has happened quite recently in a soccer match, and made lots of front pages in the national papers.
nomad
Yes, the bite in the soccer match has made the front pages, but not for good reasons.
In general, people are appalled by such stupid behaviour.
I'll say it again. We, as humans, are supposed to be of superior intelligence to dogs. If we have to resort to imitating the dog's basest instincts, then we're demonstrating that we're not, in fact, of superior intelligence.
I have owned terriers for forty years and many of them. I agree that every dog needs to know that someone is in control and making the rules, which I have always done. I have never, however, resorted to biting a dog.
How can you malign the dog for biting when you're prepared to bite yourself?
In general, people are appalled by such stupid behaviour.
I'll say it again. We, as humans, are supposed to be of superior intelligence to dogs. If we have to resort to imitating the dog's basest instincts, then we're demonstrating that we're not, in fact, of superior intelligence.
I have owned terriers for forty years and many of them. I agree that every dog needs to know that someone is in control and making the rules, which I have always done. I have never, however, resorted to biting a dog.
How can you malign the dog for biting when you're prepared to bite yourself?
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ooh dear, each to their own, i'm sure nomad isn't suggesting anyone really hurt their dog, he has explained what he means, and though it might be a bit daft to suggest that a novice puts his head anywhere near a dogs head if that dog is a known aggressor, some people do use dog tactics, to control their dogs. Defense and attack dog training is in itself pretty hardcore stuff, not neccessarily what your regular dog lover would go in for.
It is true that if a dog has resorted to biting, repeatedly, then some serious measures need to be taken, or he will be passed on, or pts, or you've got another 10 years of being bitten. This dog has had a bit of rough time perhaps, none of us has met it. One thing is for sure, if you choose a rough handling method, and it doesn't work to make your dog happier, then you have just made things worse.
The dog at work is a bit of a ninja, when her littermate comes over to play, she would bully her something rotten, the other dog ends up full of little holes or lumps (she is the most submissive dog on the planet, and gets taken advantage of). The only way to stop the bully is by getting very cross. Have you ever had a dog that would do this task for you? I have and she would bite the one behaving badly, exactly as nomad describes (if you didn't stop her obv's). I've seen mother dogs hold their pups down and pee on them for being annoying, or an adult dog pin a younger one by its head for acting out.
I wouldn't suggest biting a dog, or weeing on one, or hitting one, and i would personally use a very loud bluff, a stamp or clap or something, or i'd just stand there looking shocked probably, and maybe cry a bit. I mean what would any of you do in the three seconds after your own dog had bitten you? Honest now.... Would it be straight away onto a system of positive rewards? Glad its never happened to me. I do know i would be more upset with someone for suggesting i kill him than i would with someone suggesting i bite him back, however misguided you think that would be.
It is true that if a dog has resorted to biting, repeatedly, then some serious measures need to be taken, or he will be passed on, or pts, or you've got another 10 years of being bitten. This dog has had a bit of rough time perhaps, none of us has met it. One thing is for sure, if you choose a rough handling method, and it doesn't work to make your dog happier, then you have just made things worse.
The dog at work is a bit of a ninja, when her littermate comes over to play, she would bully her something rotten, the other dog ends up full of little holes or lumps (she is the most submissive dog on the planet, and gets taken advantage of). The only way to stop the bully is by getting very cross. Have you ever had a dog that would do this task for you? I have and she would bite the one behaving badly, exactly as nomad describes (if you didn't stop her obv's). I've seen mother dogs hold their pups down and pee on them for being annoying, or an adult dog pin a younger one by its head for acting out.
I wouldn't suggest biting a dog, or weeing on one, or hitting one, and i would personally use a very loud bluff, a stamp or clap or something, or i'd just stand there looking shocked probably, and maybe cry a bit. I mean what would any of you do in the three seconds after your own dog had bitten you? Honest now.... Would it be straight away onto a system of positive rewards? Glad its never happened to me. I do know i would be more upset with someone for suggesting i kill him than i would with someone suggesting i bite him back, however misguided you think that would be.
I agree to some degree with you. In these days of training by positive reinforcement, there is a tendency to believe or for us to be told that to say "NO" to a dog is virtually abuse.
I tend to have an old fashioned approach with my dogs. When trying to train them to do something, such as recall, I will use treats and lots of praise. Bad behaviour, however, I deal with very firmly or block it very assertively before it begins. I have always had Jack Russells, eight at one time, and if I had allowed them to rule the roost, they would have been happy to take over! They always knew who was in charge and that they had to do as they were told.
I would never reward a dog that had bitten or growled, or reward any bad behaviour.
Dogs, however, don't usually bite for the fun of it. It may be deep down, but there is usually a reason why.
I'm simply saying I would investigate other ways of getting to the cause of the biting, rather than biting the dog back. It may stop the dog biting, because he'll become terrified of his owner, but I honestly believe it will make the behaviour worse if the biting is anxiety based.
I tend to have an old fashioned approach with my dogs. When trying to train them to do something, such as recall, I will use treats and lots of praise. Bad behaviour, however, I deal with very firmly or block it very assertively before it begins. I have always had Jack Russells, eight at one time, and if I had allowed them to rule the roost, they would have been happy to take over! They always knew who was in charge and that they had to do as they were told.
I would never reward a dog that had bitten or growled, or reward any bad behaviour.
Dogs, however, don't usually bite for the fun of it. It may be deep down, but there is usually a reason why.
I'm simply saying I would investigate other ways of getting to the cause of the biting, rather than biting the dog back. It may stop the dog biting, because he'll become terrified of his owner, but I honestly believe it will make the behaviour worse if the biting is anxiety based.
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you are right rosie33, i've been trying to imagine what circumstances would cause my dog to bite me, he would definitley have to be under some kind of pressure, and attacking back i imagine would not help, and would be an awful thing to do to a dog, that was already so stressed out.
I was just trying to see nomads point of the argument, as it was getting a little heated. I cannot personally imagine taking a puppy and training it to be an attack dog..... Most of our dogs would guard the house or what ever, and we encourage them not to, because we don't want them scaring visitors. I've been chased by many jack russells on my paper round as a kid, they need no encouragement eh? And good on them for being brave little souls. Someone who has trained dogs, as nomad says he has done might have a few good pointers for us all, tho i feel this thread wasn't the best place for them, and maybe wasn't explained too well at first.
I, for instance would be curious to know what circumstances have caused him to bite a rottweiler, alsation, or a pitbull or whatever, and the longterm outcome of this....
Not on this thread tho....
I was just trying to see nomads point of the argument, as it was getting a little heated. I cannot personally imagine taking a puppy and training it to be an attack dog..... Most of our dogs would guard the house or what ever, and we encourage them not to, because we don't want them scaring visitors. I've been chased by many jack russells on my paper round as a kid, they need no encouragement eh? And good on them for being brave little souls. Someone who has trained dogs, as nomad says he has done might have a few good pointers for us all, tho i feel this thread wasn't the best place for them, and maybe wasn't explained too well at first.
I, for instance would be curious to know what circumstances have caused him to bite a rottweiler, alsation, or a pitbull or whatever, and the longterm outcome of this....
Not on this thread tho....
A 'positively reinforced' behaviour is one that is rewarded or encouraged.
What you're talking about is a behaviour which has become a habit and any habit can be broken, but better first to establish why it began in the first place.
What you're talking about is a behaviour which has become a habit and any habit can be broken, but better first to establish why it began in the first place.
They use Operant Conditioning with the primates in Monkey World and reward is a part of it.
The monkey is asked to show say a hand. When it does, a clicker is used and a reward given.
As I said before, I don't believe any dog should be rewarded for negative behaviour, only positive, but I don't agree in going to the other extreme and biting your dog.
The monkey is asked to show say a hand. When it does, a clicker is used and a reward given.
As I said before, I don't believe any dog should be rewarded for negative behaviour, only positive, but I don't agree in going to the other extreme and biting your dog.
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Interesting thread - how are things going desperate?
‘They’ use operant conditioning on any animal capable of learning something in thousands of establishments suitable for purpose around the globe, including places where psychotherapy is practised, you will not hear ‘reward’ used in the way you used it in any of them. ‘Reward’ is a conatative word, can you imagine a pysychotherapy report being read by a lot of different people (auxileries) with ‘reward’ meaning something different to every one of them.
Reinforcement is used in operant learning theory as denotave word, it means only one thing, a reinforcer strengthens behaviour, (1) B F Skinner 1974 wrote;
Reinforcer: When a bit of behavior has the kind of consequence called reinforcing, it is more likely to occur again.
Skinner went on to define ‘positive’ 'reinforcement';
A positive reinforcer strengthens any behavior that produces it:
Out of interest, who told you reward & reinforcement in OC (operant conditioning) meant the same thing, it’s accepted that once behaviour has gone through the conditioning ‘process’ the habit behaviour can then be called rewarding but habit is not the ‘causal process’ of learning, habit is formed 'because of' the 'causal process', which is what OC is.
So, to repeat, this dogs behaviour of biting is a 'positive reinforced' behaviour, the behaviour of biting is strengthened & so it became recurrent.
Refs
1. B, F. Skinner, (1974). About behaviorism, Random House, New York, p52.
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this is an interesting thread eh? I wonder how desperatebeagleowner is doing, and if he's been following the thread...
Cofs, i think i understand you; whatever the reason this dog first bit someone, the consequence of his action was a positive one, or not a negative one i.e. He didn't get bitten back (jokes), or the owner backed off, or he got to keep the tea towel or whatever. In other words, it worked, he got a not unpleasant result for his actions, and felt loads better. Is this right or have i double negatived myself into a confusion.
in order to 'condition' this dog into not biting its owner, would the owner have to repeat the whole biting thing (or situation that caused the biting) and then ignore being bitten, or some kind of negative consequence, or is this even possible? I'm thinking chainmail!
Obviously i'm not aking for advice for this owner, i'm just curious.
Cofs, i think i understand you; whatever the reason this dog first bit someone, the consequence of his action was a positive one, or not a negative one i.e. He didn't get bitten back (jokes), or the owner backed off, or he got to keep the tea towel or whatever. In other words, it worked, he got a not unpleasant result for his actions, and felt loads better. Is this right or have i double negatived myself into a confusion.
in order to 'condition' this dog into not biting its owner, would the owner have to repeat the whole biting thing (or situation that caused the biting) and then ignore being bitten, or some kind of negative consequence, or is this even possible? I'm thinking chainmail!
Obviously i'm not aking for advice for this owner, i'm just curious.
I suppose thats one of the most important leads -If you go back to the OPs' first post, theres all kinds of fragments which might end in nipping or biting by some dogs, the owner said quite a number of little things, one thing was that they percieved the dog as being a bit 'dominant' over the family (used the word "us") & a few which seemed to mean the dog probably percieved the owners behaviour as sub-serviant & simply took the lead under some circumstances only the dog itself experienced.
The owner & family have to make changes to their own behaviour towards the dog, unless or untill someone sees the interactive situation first hand & make suggestions to the owner as to how to change their behaviour as well as how to respond when then the next biting event ocurres theres no way beyond an educated guess pass anything usefull on to the owner, which might work or might not.
Sorry I ended up with a quite vague & probably completly useless bit of info but if you read the OPs' first post you'll see quite a few bits & pieces where the owner behaves in a way the dog will understand that they are just lower ranking than him, so behaves according to the way he sees his status.
I suppose an analogy would be, how woud it take for the kids to take over if you let 'em? well...little bleeders are litle bleeders, no matter what species they are!
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