An Opinion

[kris]

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we can always improve a breed no matter what that breed is.if say its got  a problem with luxating patellas or cervical spondylosis then try to breed pups that are top show specimens and are also healthier and have  a better chance of a life that is free from health problems and pain.im sure other folk can put it better than me but i want to breed an allround dog.a superb specimen of the breed,good health and good temperament. its easier said than done though! :thumbsup:

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Trying to eliminate health problems, is NOT what I call "improving the breed", that should be called "eliminating health problems". Of-course, we should all strive to breed pups that are better than the parents, but that is where the problem starts, as somebody may think that extremely long neck is an improvement, while others recognize it as a potential problem ( as it predisposes dogs to the Wobbler Syndrome). To me improvement is if the pups have better angulation, topline or movement etc, than my bitch. I strive to improve my line, not to change the breed.

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isnt eliminating health problems improving a breed? that is what im saying.if we breed a dog with a longer length of neck and it has wobblers how is that improving the breed or your line?it isnt.moderation is the key,not exaggerration. you may think youre improving your line but i personally think of it as improving the breed as a whole because pups you sell and are used at stud and are bred from all add to the breed .i never mentioned changing the breed just trying to improve on the last generation,isnt that what its all about,not being static but going forward?.no breeder is an island to coin a phrase. :thumbsup:

by the way i took part in the first clinical trials at liverpool university which did research and surveys into cervical spondylosis (wobblers syndrome) and although its a good few years ago i think i can remember the results being published in the north of england dobe club written by the well known geneticist who ran the survey after getting funding partly from the breed clubs.his findings were that spondylosis is multi factoral and isnt caused by one particular thing.so for example we filled in sheets asking such questions as do you feed on a raised surface or the floor,what age did you introduce a choke chain,what supplements do you add to the feed et ctc.he said that he thought being overweight as a pup added to the problem and some of the other things ive just mentioned although not casuing the problem by themselves if they were taken together they could make problems for asdog that wouldnt otherwise have them

 

[seaspot_run]

Three thoughts--

a) this is a very cozy board with a limited number of posters, so I think that even if your username is something that wouldn't peg you on a search engine, it will help others to relate to your postings better if they feel like they know "who" you are and "who" your dogs are. This is only natural and I say this as a veteran of many many dog-related message boards and e-group lists.

b) You can breed the most health-cleared, test-normal, stainless pedigrees in the world from a health standpoint, but if the dogs in it aren't truly excellent in some arena, it's the genetic equivalent of the tree that falls in the forest with no one around to hear. Or the sound of one hand clapping--take your pick. Your own puppy buyers will be happy with their puppies, but if you want to make a difference in the breed as a whole, you have to breed something that other breeders will want to use because it can do very well in one of the competitive arenas open to that breed.

c) Temperament is more important than anything there is. This is why there is a market for breeds such as Bulldogs which have any number of health problems rampant, but who are so sweet and lovable that people want them, even so.

I think that it goes without saying that newbies can breed good litters. All successful lines and kennels were at one point started by a newbie breeder who hit the jackpot with some really good dogs that won well and that other breeders admired. We were all there one day. A healthy, well-bred puppy which is properly reared with all health clearances should be worth the same to pet market whether it is a breeder's first litter or their fifty-first. Breeders need to get together and decide what the price of a healthy, guaranteed, properly-reared pet puppy should be. And stick with that. There's a lot less unpleasantness if breeders don't get into price wars over the pet market.

Just my opinion from the USA, where such things have indeed occurred.

Karen Lee

Surrey Hill (since 1979!)

 

[Seraphina]

isnt eliminating health problems improving a breed? .....................he said that he thought being overweight as  a pup added to the problem and some of the other things ive just mentioned although not casuing the problem by themselves  if they were taken together they could make problems for  asdog that wouldnt otherwise have them

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The reason why I have a problem with the expression "improving the breed" is that it makes people feel that they have the right to change the breed. That is what led to so many breeds acquiring problems - pushed-in noses got so pushed-in the dogs cannot breath properly etc. Thankfully, Whippets are still relatively problems free, however I believe that in the USA there have been cases of both Wobblers and hip dysplasia (w00t) - at least i came across websites where breeders state that they test their Whippets for both. In Danes Wobblers appeared when they started to get very long and beautiful gracefully arched necks. I do realise that the long necks were only part of the problem, but nevertheless it is a contributing factor, and we should keep it in our minds. Overfeeding and over mineralising, incorrect exercise all play part.

The reason I mention the long graceful necks is because it is something that may bring the winning edge, so some may feel that breeding longer and longer necks is a good idea and an improvement to the breed.

I have to admit, back in the 70's i used to look at the photos of longnecked Danes and wished mine were like that :b , now i look at the Whippets and wonder how long is long enough, and if any longer can be problematic for the breed. After all Whippets should be free of exegeration.

 

[seaspot_run]

isnt eliminating health problems improving a breed?

.....................he said that he thought being overweight as  a pup added to the problem and some of the other things ive just mentioned although not casuing the problem by themselves  if they were taken together they could make problems for  asdog that wouldnt otherwise have them

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The reason why I have a problem with the expression "improving the breed" is that it makes people feel that they have the right to change the breed. That is what led to so many breeds acquiring problems - pushed-in noses got so pushed-in the dogs cannot breath properly etc. Thankfully, Whippets are still relatively problems free, however I believe that in the USA there have been cases of both Wobblers and hip dysplasia (w00t) - at least i came across websites where breeders state that they test their Whippets for both.

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Wobblers is not known in the USA in Whippets. People can test for it, but that doesn't mean it's a problem. I've been in the breed since 1979 and Wobblers has simply never been mentioned in my presence, ever.

Hip Dysplasia in the USA is limited to a few very isolated and unrelated cases which are right now viewed as nutritional.

You have to understand that the USA is an extremely litigious society. If anything goes wrong in so much as .0001% of the stock, then it's SOMEONE'S fault and they must be made to PAY. So, you can't go by what people test for the USA. They tend to test for expensive, splashy things which are not really genetic issues while completely ignoring things that can be passed off as poor husbandry, such as temperament problems.

The primary genetic issues in the USA can't even be tested for in young stock. These include middle-age onset mitral valve cardiac issues, epilepsy, and Addisons. Some eye problems can be screened for as baby puppies, as can hearing problems, but most of what most affects our Whippets affects them in the middle of, or after, their prime breeding and competitive years, which makes the whole thing a real puzzle to work out.

Do not forget that our dogs come from the same basic stock as yours. I'd be shocked if we have any genetic defects in the USA that can't be found to some extent (however minor) in other gene pools.

 

[Seraphina]

Wobblers is not known in the USA in Whippets. People can test for it, but that doesn't mean it's a problem.  I've been in the breed since 1979 and Wobblers has simply never been mentioned in my presence, ever.
Hip Dysplasia in the USA is limited to a few very isolated and unrelated cases which are right now viewed as nutritional.

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Thanks for that explanation. I have to say i was wondering about the Hip Dysplasia as I could not understand why would Whippet suffer from this. I have always considered it to be largely contributed to by incorrect diet, insufficient excersise and having young pups/dogs carrying too much weight. But I am sure I did hear of Wobblers in Whippets, somewhere...........I certainly got attacked on other forum when i admitted i do not test my dogs for it.

As far as some countries having widespread problems that others do not, I could explain that. In large place like USA a top winning dog may sire couple of hunfreds of litters over his lifetime, if he carried some very rare but serious defect and people kept line breeding to him, this defect could become entrenched in the population. For instance i have not heard here in OZ of a Whippet having mitral valve cardiac issues. That does not mean anything, as people may want to keep it quiet, or if the dog was a pet nobody knows. But very often, when i ask people enquiring about pups, why did they decided on Whippet the answer is; " My vet told me to get one, she has many of them in her books and for most of their lives only sees them for their vaccinations".

 

[kris]

years ago in dobes there were no cases of von willibrands disease in the uk.it was something we never tested for. we did hips and necks that was it.now i see lots of dogs and with their hip and neck scores is their von willibrands status.over the last few years dobes have changed greatly and imho not for the better.all the years i showed them it was the american lines that were imported and that were popular.their tempreaments were fine and they had relatively few health problems.i certainly had all my dogs scores published and i never had any pups born with hip or neck problems that needed corrective surgery or any bad health problems.my vet saw them once a year for their jabs and that was it apart from a few knocks and spills.in recent years the german and dutch bloodlines have become very fashionable and popular and also in recent years i now see adverts about von willebrands tested etc.has this come into the breed with the influx of german dogs?i dont know.i havent bred for years and i no longer have any dobes as i lost my last boy a few years ago.but it certainly makes me wonder.i remember a very well known internationally recognised breeder/exhibitorwho on seeing i had a car sticker in the window with a pic of a dobe on she started to rant about the german dogs and what awful dogs they were.(i didnt know what she was on about then as i was a newcomer and id just bought the sticker as i liked it!)all her dogs were based on american imports and champions mainly kayhills which was a very well known line in the states.ive since seen that same person advertising pups and dogs at stud now and guess what?theyre all german bred now! (w00t) fashions in breeds worry me.ive seen it happen in two of the breeds ive been involved in over a long period of time that the breed has suddenly developed a characteristic that isnt favourable but cos of the well known person who has those dogs everyone rushes to use them at stud and to buy bitches to breed with from them,cos they see how successful they are in the ring.but they arent correct.manchester terriers went over the top on height for a long period when a couple of breeders were winning everything.the dogs lacked substance,they didnt have the correct hare like feet,they had breeching and were well oversized.but cos they were famous breeders, judges (mainly allrounders who i think were placing them at the top thinking it was a safe bet cos joe bloggs another well known allrounder had given them b.o.b. last month)put them up and people bought pups and used the dgs at stud.i had a newcomer to the breed tell me once that my dogs were small!i replied no my dogs are the exact size according to the standard,not 4 or 5 inches taller!but can you see were im coming from?if newbies see things like this in the ring winning (and yes im agreeing with seraphina here about exaggeration)then they automatically think its correct,and even if they dont they see them winning and some might not have a long term agenda within the breed,they may be in it for the short term and the short term rewards like a red rosette.

 

[quintessence]

years ago in dobes there were no cases of von willibrands disease in the uk.it was something we never tested for. we did hips and necks that was it.now i see lots of dogs and with their hip and neck scores is their von willibrands status.over the last few years dobes have changed greatly and imho not for the better.all the years i showed them it was the american lines that were imported and that were popular.their tempreaments were fine and they had relatively few health problems.i certainly had all my dogs scores published and i never had any pups born with  hip or neck problems that needed corrective surgery or any bad health problems.my vet saw them once a year for their jabs and that was it apart from a few knocks and spills.in recent years the german and dutch bloodlines have become very fashionable and popular and also in recent years i now see adverts about von willebrands tested etc.has this come into the breed with the influx of german dogs?i dont know.i havent bred for years and i no longer have any dobes as i lost my last boy a few years ago.but it certainly makes me wonder.i remember a very well known internationally recognised breeder/exhibitorwho on seeing i had  a car sticker in the window with a pic of a dobe on  she started to rant about the german dogs and what awful dogs they were.(i didnt know what she was on about then as i was a newcomer and id just bought the sticker as i liked it!)all her dogs were based on american imports and champions mainly kayhills which was a very well known line in the states.ive since seen that same person advertising pups and dogs at stud now and guess what?theyre all german bred now! (w00t) fashions in breeds worry me.ive seen it happen in two of the breeds ive been involved in over  a long period of time that the breed has suddenly developed a characteristic that isnt favourable but cos of the well known person who has those dogs everyone rushes to use them at stud and to buy bitches to breed with from them,cos they see how successful they are in the ring.but they arent correct.manchester terriers went over the top on height for  a long period when a couple of breeders were winning everything.the dogs lacked substance,they didnt have the correct hare like feet,they had breeching and were well oversized.but cos they were famous breeders, judges (mainly allrounders who i think were placing them at the top thinking it was a safe bet cos joe bloggs another well known allrounder had given them b.o.b. last month)put them up and people bought pups and used the dgs at stud.i had a newcomer to the breed tell me once that my dogs were small!i replied no my dogs are the exact size according to the standard,not 4 or 5 inches taller!but can you see were im coming from?if newbies see things like this in the ring winning (and yes im agreeing with seraphina here about exaggeration)then they automatically think its correct,and even if they dont they see them winning and some might not have  a long term agenda within the breed,they may be in it for the short term and the short term rewards like a red rosette.

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Surely the villains of the peace here are the long time breeders who only wanted to win, how much care were they taking; with their experience they should have known better. I don't automatically think newcomers are as naive as they are painted, they are quite capable of understanding a breed standard, quite capable of seeing what's going on, and quite capable of looking at a dog and liking what they see, I myself am studying another breed at the moment, I have no experience in the breed or indeed the group, yet I already know what I like and why I like it, I am totally open minded about what I see in the ring and haven't a clue who the handlers are, i'm just looking at the dogs. Hours quietly sitting at a ringside studying a breed must count for something, how do you know other people don't follow the same route before they take the plunge.

Perhaps we ought to consider the role of the stud dog owner and their responsibility to the breed.

Jenny

 

[fewterer]

Health, soundness, temperament, breed standard will lead to show or working accolades.

And what exactly is a 'working accolade' ? An odd turn of phrase for someone with so much experience in the breed...

 

[seaspot_run]

Well, there is certainly such a thing as "founder effect".

It may be that one stud dog imported into a country carries a relatively rare defect but in breeding back onto that dog many times over the next four or five generations, that defect becomes widespread in that country while it remains ultra-rare elsewhere.

We have what I consider to be an issue in the USA with most of our top show winners all going back to just a handful of sires.

If any one of those sires turned out to carry a serious defect, we are going to be in a world of hurt here. But it is much as I said before, if you want to have an impact on the breed, you have to have dogs that other breeders admire and want to use, and right now, most of the popular dogs who are admired and win well and breed consistent quality over here do go back to one or more of those five "super sires".

It's a critical mass thing. It's hard to fault the small-scale, dedicated breeder who breeds their one litter every year or two for going to lines that can keep their competitive quality high. That's what you're supposed to do, right? But when everyone ends up working the same lines, then you can run into problems.

Mitral valve is the #1 thing being talked about here, but you have to understand that we are not talking about heart problems that show up in puppies. We are talking about heart problems that show up in 8-12 year old dogs, with maybe a very low grade murmur that presents at 6 or 7--if then. Some of these dogs (the majority, probably) live on well past 12 years old, but there is a segment of them who blow up into major heart problems and cardiomyopathy and die before the age of 10. Obviously, that's not something that we want to perpetuate. But it's tough when they're not showing evidence of a heart problem during their prime breeding and showing and coursing years.

I think this problem has been with us for awhile, but there may be contributing factors in modern life, vaccine protocols--who knows? And few of them are symptomatic until right before they die, so in the past, these may not have been dogs that went to the vet enough to have their murmurs diagnosed early in some cases. A lot of people do not have their dogs' hearts listened to every year when those dogs are retired and seem healthy and aren't needing to go to the vet. Most of the US breeders give their own vaccines, other than rabies.

I know that mitral was in the breed 30 years ago, and it was found in populations that were sired by or out of dogs who were imports, so it's not logical to me that mitral valve murmurs are just a US problem. But the difference is, now we really focus more on health problems and all the testing and screening that we do, and with the internet, it certainly gives the impression that we have a lot more problems than anyone else. Not to mention, if you sell a puppy with a defect, the chances that the whole world will know about it are pretty good nowadays.

My own worst mitral valve murmur is a case in point. For the 8 years I actively coursed and raced her, she was pretty well known for being in all likelihood, the fastest showbred bitch out there. A superb athlete--certainly no indication there was anything wrong with her heart. She blew up with a Grade 5 mitral murmur at the age of 10, and ended up dying at 11.5 from a brain tumor, still not on any heart medication for symptoms of cardiac insufficiency. Because of her murmur, I put her into the study so she is in the records for mitral valve problems in the USA.

It is hard to know, as a breeder, how to deal with something like this. But I do think this is a good example of a dog whose mitral valve murmur probably would not be on any database in the past, without a specific study in place designed to get such dogs documented.

The more exotic stuff--Von Willebrands, Wobblers, etc.--no. I do not think Whippets need to be screened for hip dysplasia. With regard to Dobes, cardiomyopathy is an enormous problem in US Dobes and it seems that there could be said to be fault on the part of some breeders who offered dogs at stud they knew had heart problems.

We may have a higher incidence of health problems in the USA in Whippets. But without hard data, that's a tough case to make. I think trying to keep our gene pools diverse is generally a good idea, but again, if you can't massage dogs who win well at something out of that kind of breeding scheme, you're not really going to have any impact on the health of the breed.

Karen Lee

 

[kris]

years ago in dobes there were no cases of von willibrands disease in the uk.it was something we never tested for. we did hips and necks that was it.now i see lots of dogs and with their hip and neck scores is their von willibrands status.over the last few years dobes have changed greatly and imho not for the better.all the years i showed them it was the american lines that were imported and that were popular.their tempreaments were fine and they had relatively few health problems.i certainly had all my dogs scores published and i never had any pups born with  hip or neck problems that needed corrective surgery or any bad health problems.my vet saw them once a year for their jabs and that was it apart from a few knocks and spills.in recent years the german and dutch bloodlines have become very fashionable and popular and also in recent years i now see adverts about von willebrands tested etc.has this come into the breed with the influx of german dogs?i dont know.i havent bred for years and i no longer have any dobes as i lost my last boy a few years ago.but it certainly makes me wonder.i remember a very well known internationally recognised breeder/exhibitorwho on seeing i had  a car sticker in the window with a pic of a dobe on  she started to rant about the german dogs and what awful dogs they were.(i didnt know what she was on about then as i was a newcomer and id just bought the sticker as i liked it!)all her dogs were based on american imports and champions mainly kayhills which was a very well known line in the states.ive since seen that same person advertising pups and dogs at stud now and guess what?theyre all german bred now! (w00t) fashions in breeds worry me.ive seen it happen in two of the breeds ive been involved in over  a long period of time that the breed has suddenly developed a characteristic that isnt favourable but cos of the well known person who has those dogs everyone rushes to use them at stud and to buy bitches to breed with from them,cos they see how successful they are in the ring.but they arent correct.manchester terriers went over the top on height for  a long period when a couple of breeders were winning everything.the dogs lacked substance,they didnt have the correct hare like feet,they had breeching and were well oversized.but cos they were famous breeders, judges (mainly allrounders who i think were placing them at the top thinking it was a safe bet cos joe bloggs another well known allrounder had given them b.o.b. last month)put them up and people bought pups and used the dgs at stud.i had a newcomer to the breed tell me once that my dogs were small!i replied no my dogs are the exact size according to the standard,not 4 or 5 inches taller!but can you see were im coming from?if newbies see things like this in the ring winning (and yes im agreeing with seraphina here about exaggeration)then they automatically think its correct,and even if they dont they see them winning and some might not have  a long term agenda within the breed,they may be in it for the short term and the short term rewards like a red rosette.

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Surely the villains of the peace here are the long time breeders who only wanted to win, how much care were they taking; with their experience they should have known better. I don't automatically think newcomers are as naive as they are painted, they are quite capable of understanding a breed standard, quite capable of seeing what's going on, and quite capable of looking at a dog and liking what they see, I myself am studying another breed at the moment, I have no experience in the breed or indeed the group, yet I already know what I like and why I like it, I am totally open minded about what I see in the ring and haven't a clue who the handlers are, i'm just looking at the dogs. Hours quietly sitting at a ringside studying a breed must count for something, how do you know other people don't follow the same route before they take the plunge.

Perhaps we ought to consider the role of the stud dog owner and their responsibility to the breed.

Jenny

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its not a question of heroes and villains,its a question of seeing what is winning and following suit.if you show a correct size whippet and it never wins cos all the judges are putting up oversized whipets what do you do?keep on breeding correct sized?i did.years later the damage the oversized dogs did to the breed was apparent by the amount of large dogs in the ring.although i hadnt shown for years people remembered my dogs and the champions id bred and they must have talked about them cos out of the blue i started to get phone calls and letters asking if i had any dogs or bitches and that the persons enquiring wanted to use a dog of our bloodlines at stud or wanted to buy a bitch of our breeding.(they all mentioned the size problem as why they wanted to use our lines)unfortunately i only had old dogs so couldnt help,i didnt carry on in the breed as i got fed up of seeing these dogs winning,and comments made about my dogs being small(when you have a correct sized dog and newcomers are telling you that your dogs are small undersized etc etc its hard to stop yourself saying get a tape measure out and ill show you whats the correct size!) but some of the dogs id bred were winning tickets when we had breed judges judging especially breed judges who had been in the breed for many years and knew that size was becoming a problem.why didnt more people especially newcomers who all flocked to these breeders?im just using this as a rough example.you are experienced in whippets so if you go into another breed you already have your experiences to fall back on and to help you decide what you like.maybe a newcomer isnt as able to do that as they dont have any experiences to fall back on?yes some newcomers will spend hours at the ringside studying the breed and yes some dont want to be bothered doing that.theyll just go to the person who has done the most winning and think im on a safe bet here cos theyre the top breeder.i think the test of a good breeder is if their dogs can win in the hands of a newcomer to the breed.its far easier for an established person in a breed to win,sometimes with anything they take into the ring,but if a newcomer can take that dog to the top then surely thats a way of showing that theyre breeding excellent dogs?

as for the problem about rehoming dogs youve bred for the rest of their lives its a nice theory but i wonder how many people could carry it out in practice?what if as echo says you have suddenly a few dogs returned all males and they fight?what then?what if you get divorced and cant have the same lifestyle as you enjoyed when married and had two incomes coming in?theres a big rescue and rehoming problem in this country and as long as people can breed what they want when they want it will continue.whippets have been lucky i think so far as theyve largely escaped a lot of these problems from what i can gather,but these problems can and will rear their ugly heads as their popularity continues and everyone who has one wants to breed from it and so it will continue ad infinitum.whats the answer?the guardians of the breed in some breeds protect their breed from this kind of population explosion by endorsing their progeny not to be bred from.maybe this isnt a bad thing.what do others think?

 

[dessie]

the guardians of the breed in some breeds protect their breed from this kind of population explosion by endorsing their progeny not to be bred from.maybe this isnt a bad thing.what do others think?

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Actually, the endorsement is only that progeny cannot be registered. So, if people want to breed from their bitch, they will. I personally think endorsements are a load of nonsense and mean doodly squit!

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

Is it then the opinion that "the general public" should not have the opportunity to own a whippet? I know that this is a showing forum but showing is not the only value that a whippet, or inded any other breed, has. A health animal with a good temprament is the priority with most "pet" owners.

A confused Rosie :wacko:

 

[chelynnah]

I personally hate the term 'improve the breed'. I believe the phrase that makes the most sense is 'PRESERVER the breed' OR 'Improve the LINES'. At what point is the breed 'improved' upon enough, and who would deign to think they could in any way 'improve' the breed that has a breed standard in place.

That phrase just drives me nuts, because I would never think that I could improve the breed. I don't WANT to improve the breed. I would like to improve upon what I have. I would like to try to preserve breed type/temperament etc. But I do not want to 'improve the breed'. As someone else said, too much 'improving' makes the breed completely unrecognisable from what it was. That's not improving - that's ALTERING.

Why do I want to breed? I didn't originally. I thought long and hard about it. I never planned to. But once I got more serious about it I decided (with encouragement and support from the breeders of my girls) that I would like to give it a try. I'm not new to breeding. My parents bred and showed Mini Dachs YEARS ago. That's part of why I orignally chose NOT to breed.

And until the 'deed is done' I reserve the right to change my mind. I'm very aware that there are often pups with no homes, and at one point I expressed my concern about is it ethical for me to breed a litter when I see so many pups at that moment needing to be homed. A good friend in whippets respected that I asked the question, but answered with the fact that I already have homes lined up for at least 4 pups (plus my own that I would keep), so no, it's not unethical.

But yes, I ask that (and similar) questions of myself often to make sure that I'm doing it for the right reasons in my own mind. Am I scared and nervous - absolutely! But that is only right that I am.

Do I care if they go to show or pet homes? No - Pet homes are preferred and if they're pet homes that show - well that's a bonus. But to me the quality of the home is more important than the 'accolades' the pups might get. Do I want something for me to show - yes, because my pets show.

Will I take anything I breed back at any time for the rest of it's life. You betcha! And that will be part of any sales agreement. And since I don't intend to breed much, that won't be a problem. But my view is if I helped create it then I will be responsible for it.

I had all my reasons for not breeding for many years. I still believe in all those reasons for not breeding, but in addition I now have reasons TO breed, but it will be carefully, sparingly and with LOADS of research and mentoring.

Wendy

 

[chelynnah]

to get back on track,i think there are good newcomers to a breed and bad experienced people in a breed.ive met them all.ive also met the two minute wonders who ive sat at the side of the ring and heard them repeating word for word what they heard me saying the day before at another show.ive also met folk who have been in the breed for 20 odd years and tbh they havent got 20 odd years experience,theyve got one years experience theyve repeated 20 times.being passionate about the breed helps,as does having someone who you respect for what theyve achieved (and i dont  mean just in show wins)and can talk to and ask those questions that arent in any of the books(maybe cos noone wants to recognise the problem so dont talk about it)im talking generalities here as i dont own or show whippets.so ill give my twopennysworth.when i bred a litter i was trying to improve on the parents and produce something not that was their equal but that was better.we can always improve a breed no matter what that breed is.if say its got  a problem with luxating patellas or cervical spondylosis then try to breed pups that are top show specimens and are also healthier and have  a better chance of a life that is free from health problems and pain.im sure other folk can put it better than me but i want to breed an allround dog.a superb specimen of the breed,good health and good temperament. its easier said than done though! :thumbsup:

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Couldn't have said it better myself.

A bad or unethical breeder is a bad breeder and a good or ethical breeder is a good breeder. It's not the number of years behind them that makes the difference it's the motives, the intentions, the passion etc - and those are not things we can necessarily measure from our perch way up high. We can only measure those things individually by getting to know the people involved.

I especially LOVE this line from above "ive also met folk who have been in the breed for 20 odd years and tbh they havent got 20 odd years experience,theyve got one years experience theyve repeated 20 times""

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Rather than basing an opinion on a broad sweeping brush tarring everyone, I think each situation needs to be looked at on its own merit.

Wendy

 

[EJW]

to get back on track,i think there are good newcomers to a breed and bad experienced people in a breed.ive met them all.ive also met the two minute wonders who ive sat at the side of the ring and heard them repeating word for word what they heard me saying the day before at another show.ive also met folk who have been in the breed for 20 odd years and tbh they havent got 20 odd years experience,theyve got one years experience theyve repeated 20 times.being passionate about the breed helps,as does having someone who you respect for what theyve achieved (and i dont  mean just in show wins)and can talk to and ask those questions that arent in any of the books(maybe cos noone wants to recognise the problem so dont talk about it)im talking generalities here as i dont own or show whippets.so ill give my twopennysworth.when i bred a litter i was trying to improve on the parents and produce something not that was their equal but that was better.we can always improve a breed no matter what that breed is.if say its got  a problem with luxating patellas or cervical spondylosis then try to breed pups that are top show specimens and are also healthier and have  a better chance of a life that is free from health problems and pain.im sure other folk can put it better than me but i want to breed an allround dog.a superb specimen of the breed,good health and good temperament. its easier said than done though! :thumbsup:

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Couldn't have said it better myself.

A bad or unethical breeder is a bad breeder and a good or ethical breeder is a good breeder. It's not the number of years behind them that makes the difference it's the motives, the intentions, the passion etc - and those are not things we can necessarily measure from our perch way up high. We can only measure those things individually by getting to know the people involved.

I especially LOVE this line from above "ive also met folk who have been in the breed for 20 odd years and tbh they havent got 20 odd years experience,theyve got one years experience theyve repeated 20 times""

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Rather than basing an opinion on a broad sweeping brush tarring everyone, I think each situation needs to be looked at on its own merit.

Wendy

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I'm in complete agreement with you :thumbsup: & in pretty much the same situation!

Although if I breed a litter it won't be for a couple of years or so & will be with complete support & help from my bitches breeder!

 

[chelynnah]

Is it then the opinion that "the general public" should not have the opportunity to own a whippet?  I know that this is a showing forum but showing is not the only value that a whippet, or inded any other breed, has.  A health animal with a good temprament is the priority with most "pet" owners.A confused Rosie :wacko:

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Absolutely not - you'll see in one of my above posts that my hope is for wonderful PET homes. I don't care if it's John Q Public, or Joe I Show, my hope is to find homes where they are spoiled and loved and if they do anything else competition-wise - well that's a bonus.

I also hope that what I breed will be of sound health and temperament (as my first and foremost priority), and will be a wonderful additiion to anyone's home who wants to love a whippet. That's what I would breed for myself, so that's what I would hope the whole litter would be.

And I think you'll find that most of the breeders on the show forum will say the same thing about the home being the most important, not the showing.

Wendy

 

[kris]

some of the best homes ive had for my pups have been so called pet homes.one much loved dog went to a couple with a beautiful farmhouse,loads of land,he was taken everywhere with them,(no boarding kennels for this lad,if he couldnt go,then they didnt go!) they used to take him to the blackpool lights every year to see the illuminations :blink: and the highlight of his trip was a visit to mcdonalds for burgers and milkshake!) :lol: i got xmas cards off him and his family and photos of him up (and phone calls,he used to woof down the phone to me! :lol: )until the day he died as an old dog who had had the most fabulous life.he broke their hearts when he died,theyve never replaced him with another dog,they said they could never replace him. i wish all dogs could have homes like this. :huggles:

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

Is it then the opinion that "the general public" should not have the opportunity to own a whippet?  I know that this is a showing forum but showing is not the only value that a whippet, or inded any other breed, has.  A health animal with a good temprament is the priority with most "pet" owners.A confused Rosie :wacko:

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Absolutely not - you'll see in one of my above posts that my hope is for wonderful PET homes. I don't care if it's John Q Public, or Joe I Show, my hope is to find homes where they are spoiled and loved and if they do anything else competition-wise - well that's a bonus.

I also hope that what I breed will be of sound health and temperament (as my first and foremost priority), and will be a wonderful additiion to anyone's home who wants to love a whippet. That's what I would breed for myself, so that's what I would hope the whole litter would be.

And I think you'll find that most of the breeders on the show forum will say the same thing about the home being the most important, not the showing.

Wendy

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So very glad to hear this. I have always loved and treasured all of the animals that I have been blesed with. I will, in the future when circumstances allow, be looking for one of the beautiful and loving dogs that is a whippet. I must say that health is top of my list so a show bred whippet is not strictly necessary. What may be regarded by many as a pigs ear may well be my silk purse, after all I don't really like what I see in the mirror but my mum loves me :wub:

 

[kris]

a dog loves you unconditionally.no matter what you look like. :thumbsup: and the feeling is returned by us also. :huggles:

 

[bashful]

Is it then the opinion that "the general public" should not have the opportunity to own a whippet?  I know that this is a showing forum but showing is not the only value that a whippet, or inded any other breed, has.  A health animal with a good temprament is the priority with most "pet" owners.A confused Rosie :wacko:

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Absolutely not - you'll see in one of my above posts that my hope is for wonderful PET homes. I don't care if it's John Q Public, or Joe I Show, my hope is to find homes where they are spoiled and loved and if they do anything else competition-wise - well that's a bonus.

I also hope that what I breed will be of sound health and temperament (as my first and foremost priority), and will be a wonderful additiion to anyone's home who wants to love a whippet. That's what I would breed for myself, so that's what I would hope the whole litter would be.

And I think you'll find that most of the breeders on the show forum will say the same thing about the home being the most important, not the showing.

Wendy

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So very glad to hear this. I have always loved and treasured all of the animals that I have been blesed with. I will, in the future when circumstances allow, be looking for one of the beautiful and loving dogs that is a whippet. I must say that health is top of my list so a show bred whippet is not strictly necessary. What may be regarded by many as a pigs ear may well be my silk purse, after all I don't really like what I see in the mirror but my mum loves me :wub:

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Ah Bless :huggles: and not just your mum Im sure :cheers: