An Opinion

[bashful]

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I personally hate the term 'improve the breed'.  I believe the phrase that makes the most sense is 'PRESERVER the breed' OR 'Improve the LINES'.  At what point is the breed 'improved' upon enough, and who would deign to think they could in any way 'improve' the breed that has a breed standard in place.
That phrase just drives me nuts, because I would never think that I could improve the breed.  I don't WANT to improve the breed.  I would like to improve upon what I have.  I would like to try to preserve breed type/temperament etc.  But I do not want to 'improve the breed'.  As someone else said, too much 'improving' makes the breed completely unrecognisable from what it was.  That's not improving - that's ALTERING.

Why do I want to breed?  I didn't originally.  I thought long and hard about it.  I never planned to.  But once I got more serious about it I decided (with encouragement and support from the breeders of my girls) that I would like to give it a try.  I'm not new to breeding.  My parents bred and showed Mini Dachs YEARS ago.  That's part of why I orignally chose NOT to breed.

And until the 'deed is done' I reserve the right to change my mind.  I'm very aware that there are often pups with no homes, and at one point I expressed my concern about is it ethical for me to breed a litter when I see so many pups at that moment needing to be homed.  A good friend in whippets respected that I asked the question, but answered with the fact that I already have homes lined up for at least 4 pups (plus my own that I would keep), so no, it's not unethical.

But yes, I ask that (and similar) questions of myself often to make sure that I'm doing it for the right reasons in my own mind.  Am I scared and nervous - absolutely!  But that is only right that I am.

Do I care if they go to show or pet homes?  No - Pet homes are preferred and if they're pet homes that show - well that's a bonus.  But to me the quality of the home is more important than the 'accolades' the pups might get.  Do I want something for me to show - yes, because my pets show.

Will I take anything I breed back at any time for the rest of it's life.  You betcha!  And that will be part of any sales agreement.  And since I don't intend to breed much, that won't be a problem.  But my view is if I helped create it then I will be responsible for it.

I had all my reasons for not breeding for many years.  I still believe in all those reasons for not breeding, but in addition I now have reasons TO breed, but it will be carefully, sparingly and with LOADS of research and mentoring.

Wendy

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Well said`young lady ` :cheers: Very nicely put

 

[Seraphina]

years ago in dobes there were no cases of von willibrands disease in the uk.

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My knowledge of Doberman is purely collateral, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that von Willebrand disease was a huge problem in the breed all over world, at least some years ago.

Also i find very curious that some people would dislike German Dobes considering that it is a German breed. It is like saying that British Whippets are wrong. and say the American type is better.

 

[Cartman]

One topic closed down & another very hot. All this & I had nothing to do with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I must be loosing my touch. :- " :cheers:

 

[parnew]

Great point Kris and others,

It's hard to know how to slow the rise and fall of a breed that has come into fashion, other than desexing all of the pups that we place in non show homes. As for the size and types that we see each week, with over sized whippets from the big named kennels beating those of "standard" size whippets from smaller kennels.... this is going to be very hard as greed and win at all cost has now taken over from the love of the breed in some kennels. It seems as if the thrill of being on top of your breed in your town, state, district or country means more to some breeders that the correct size, movement, outline and so on ( it goes on week in week out here in all breeds ). With the world a small place now thanks to the internet and fast air travel, these high flying win at any cost judges and breeders may cause more problems than their ego's and power trips could now. From what I've seen on this site most of the posters have their whippets and the breed intrest at heart and lets hope this continues as we band together to keep the whippet a whippet whilst trying to breed closer to the standard, not trying to improve or change the breed because then we will need a new name for these new fashion statements ( mini greyhounds ) and a truly great breed will be lost as fashion comes and goes just as quick........ :thumbsup:

 

[kris]

years ago in dobes there were no cases of von willibrands disease in the uk.

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My knowledge of Doberman is purely collateral, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that von Willebrand disease was a huge problem in the breed all over world, at least some years ago.

Also i find very curious that some people would dislike German Dobes considering that it is a German breed. It is like saying that British Whippets are wrong. and say the American type is better.

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well i had my first dobe in the early 1970s,and for a good many years id never heard of this defect,id heard of h.d. and c.s. but it seems to have only been in recent years that von willebrands has been a problem here.certainly we never tested for it and we used to test our stock for all known defects.i dont know when it became a problem as i havent been on the show scene for a few years now so have lost touch with a lot of things.but id never heard of anyone whose dogs had it and i never knew anyone who tested for it and i knew all of the top breeders and they all tested for the same as us.

the americans saw the german dobes in the war they were used by the germn army.they were trained to be silemnt attack dogs,warning of the enemy also they were trained to run alongside enemy tanks with grenades and to blow them up.the americans were so impressed by them that they took them back to the usa after the war and started to breed them.using selective breeding methods they became a much more elegant type of dog than the dog that originated in germany,and they gradually became much more good tempered.in the uk german dobes were frowned upon by 90% of breeders.all the successful kennels i knew like tavey,findjans,dizown,sallate,etc were all founded on american imports and american champions,mainly from tavey breeding by fred and julia curnow who imported from the usa.noone wanted german dobes cos they were cloddy,coarse had terrible hind movement (though good fronts)and rumour had it that their temperaments were extremely sharp to say the least. :- " also a lot of them had longish wavy coats a bit like you see on some rotties.so they didnt win even if anyone showed them.by contrast the american dogs had superb temperaments,elegance,good feet and fronts and had good rears on them,so thats what everyone wanted.i remember a couple of scottish kennels who started to import german lines but tbh they stayed mainly in scotland and werent used by any well known english breeders.now its all changed.now german is good and american isnt. it does seem strangeyes,that the country they originated in didnt become popular here but as ive not been around the dobe rings for years i cant comment on why over the last few years german bred stock is now so popular here.

 

[JAX]

One topic closed down & another  very hot.    All this & I had nothing to do with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I must be loosing my touch. :- "  :cheers:

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Hey Cartman , youre back !!! Missed you too :* :huggles:

 

[Seraphina]

german dobes......... americans were so impressed by them that they took them back to the usa after the war and started to breed them.using selective breeding methods they became a much more elegant type of dog than the dog that originated in germany,and they gradually became much more good tempered.

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It is very interesting that similar thing happened with Great Danes. In the USA they became streamlined and developed the elegant long necks. I also never heard of Dane in OZ having Wobblers until we got some US imports.

 

[aslan]

now its all changed.now german is good and american isnt. it does seem strangeyes,that the country they originated in didnt become popular here but as ive not been around the dobe rings for years i cant comment on why over the last few years german bred stock is now so popular here.

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I've had a little bit to do with Dobes over the years here in Oz - I was a handler of them for others for many years and I owned one myself for a while. If I recall correctly there were a couple of German (and a couple of Spanish) imports to Queensland in the 80's. And I also seem to recall that they were much shorter bodied and more stocky than our dobes at the time. I would hazard a guess that the reason for those imports was that the importer believed that our dobes were beginning to become too streamlined and too exaggerated (partic. in length) and they wanted to bring a bit of 'squareness' back into the breed ?

I think we are going to see the same thing happen in whippets. The big profile breeders have been leaning towards the american lines for quite a few years now and I believe I am starting to see the swing back to the English. Overall height and exaggerated length of neck and body are becoming a concern and it seems people are now considering a return to our roots might be best. And at the risk of opening up an old can of worms, we will have to be careful about what we import from England regarding height as well (and how we use it when it gets here) - because, please don't 'kill' me, English whippets on the whole are not as small as they used to be either.

 

[kris]

i think you could be right aslan .but tbh english bred dobes were a type of their own.they were not fine boned and over elegant like some of the american bred dogs,they were a sort of combination between the two types.plenty of bone and substance,square,but also a touch of elegance.i know people from abroad said they werent like any of the extremes in germany or america but a sort of happy medium between the two.maybe its cos of a defect like von willebrands that uk breeders have turned to german lines?i honestly dont know.all i do know is that people who were in the breed when i was showing and loved american lines are now using all german breedong and its getting very popular over here.

 

[Joanna]

Also i find very curious that some people would dislike German Dobes considering that it is a German breed. It is like saying that British Whippets are wrong.  and say the American type is better

We owned a Dobe and took a great interest in talking with one of the breed club members at Crufts a couple of years back. One of the most wonderful charecteristics of the breed is the temprement, but sadly, the gene pool in this country has become very small, and riddled with defects. To increase the pool, breeders started to import from Germany and the USA. It was noted the the temprement of the German dogs was not as affable as that of the British and USA dogs. I do support an improved breeding programme (whatever the breed), as we lost our lovely Dobe at 8 to heart failure ( a genetic disorder).

As for the price of pups, I can go to Debenhams for a pair of jeans and have a vast choice of style and price range. The ones I pick are the ones that suit me and my pocket. Nobody forces us to buy the most expensive, but occasionally, we think it worth the money. Market forces will dictate the price in a breed where there are usually plenty of puppies.

 

[seaspot_run]

I'm going to say it again....the USA is a very litigious society. The kind of things that would get a breeder hauled into small claims court are likely to be discouraged here--this would include expensive early-onset health problems and dangerous temperament.

The things that are tolerated would be more chronic or middle-age or later-onset problems.

As for Wobblers and longer necks, I think unless there is data or a real study that shows a correlation which is independent of lines which tend to produce individuals with longer necks, there isn't any basis for such a contention. In other words. you would need to sample all individuals whose necks were of above-average length and then correct statistically for degree of interrelatedness. How likely is this study to happen? Well, not very likely.

Among certain old time breeders, in the USA, there has been a preconception by many that black/blue lines (what Brits call "colour breeding", although I don't know why as I always learned in art class that black was the absence of color) have less stable temperaments and overly fine bone. This has changed over time so that now that genes for black coat color are widespread in the breed, and diversified through many bloodlines, the old adages no longer have any credibility.

This cannot be a scientific observation in the sense that one locus that codes for black over fawn or red cannot possibly have such an effect on temperament or substance. However, if black lines are relatively rare and in order to perpetuate them, some lines which were of lesser stability in temperament were required to be doubled and tripled-on, there may have been a rough correlation, statistically, in that black/blue dogs had a higher probability of being of unstable or flaky temperament in decades past in the USA. However, this was not because they were black or blue. This is because of the founder effect of 'hitchhiker' temperament or substance genes than came in with the color genes that are being primarily focused on. I don't know that there's any cheese down that hole of looking at longer necks, but I think that before the necks are blamed it would be worth while to look at the degree of interrelatedness of the long-necked Wobblers dogs and figure out if there is a higher correlation with pedigree than neck length due to, perhaps a prepotent sire or dam in the background of such dogs that successfully passed on not only their very long neck, but their genes for Wobblers.

Karen Lee

 

[Mychaka]

I had Dobes for over 18 years - my lines were based mainly on English and European lines. Slowly I have seen the Dobe change to what is mainly in the ring here today, in my opinion they have become too long in body so you see a lot of bounce in the back when on the move, they have lost their rotor action (seems to have moved to Boxers), height has risen considerably and they have streamlined them so they appear not to be as powerful as they use to be.

From experience of my own and some very close friends we have seen the increase in health problems with the Dobes. 10 years ago hardly anyone was testing for von Willebrand although many are now testing, a lot still don't. When a friend's top winning Dobe (mainly american lines) died of Cardo suddenly at the age of 4 - we found out just how much had been previously hidden about Cardo in his line. He tried to get the Dobe clubs to introduce compulsry testing with a lot of backlash almost to the point he quit the breed. His Dobe had sired two litters to which he contact each puppy owner and advised them of the condition and offered refunds. We had a boy in partnership who at the age of 4 went downhill fast in condition and we chose to put him to sleep so his suffering wasn't prolonged - he was a ticking time bomb. Both of us are now out of the breed for various reasons but we still keep an interested eye on the breed.

I totally agree with you Lana regarding Whippets - planning on bringing my blue girl back to the ring and I'm afraid she is going to look like a baby whippet compared to what is being shown currently up my way. Unfortunately a lot of judges are ignoring the height standard of the breed and so some breeders (and I have discussed this with them) think that they shouldn't be penalised as the dog overall is sound. And (should I say) more importantly 'winning'. I know my boy Steelie is right at the top of the height standard and until last year was being condemned as being to tall, even though I had him measured but up against current competitors is now looking smaller.

Cristina

 

[Seraphina]

As for Wobblers and longer necks, I think unless there is data or a real study that shows a correlation which is independent of lines which tend to produce individuals with longer necks, there isn't any basis for such a contention. ....................
Among certain old time breeders, in the USA, there has been a preconception by many that black/blue lines (what Brits call "colour breeding", although I don't know why as I always learned in art class that black was the absence of color) have less stable temperaments and overly fine bone.  This has changed over time so that now that genes for black coat color are widespread in the breed, and diversified through many bloodlines, the old adages no longer have any credibility.

.........interrelatedness of the long-necked Wobblers dogs and figure out if there is a higher correlation with pedigree than neck length due to, perhaps a prepotent sire or dam in the background of such dogs that successfully passed on not only their very long neck, but their genes for Wobblers.

Karen Lee

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I do agree 100% that when you breeding a certain strain of animal, genes will be passed on together although they are not necessarily dependent on each other. I stopped breeding danes 1/4 of century ago, and in those times there were no cases of Wobblers known in OZ. I only read about it in Great Dane Quarterly, which I subscribed to, and the opnion that long neck predisposes a dog to Wobblers was expessed there. And considering that Wobblers syndrome is caused by a narrowing or malformation of the spinal cervical (neck) vertebrae which causes pressure on the spinal cord, it does not sound too far fetched............

Linking temperament and colour or bone is bit different story. I had an argument in that vein here on k9 few years ago - I was arguing that temperament is unlikely dependant on colour.

Of course, Dobes in Germany were police and army dogs, and their temperament reflected that. This sort of temperament is not desirable in today's dogs living in society, so to strive to breed dogs with gentle friendly temperament is one improvement that i agree with, even if it is not the original trait of that breed. :thumbsup:

 

[seaspot_run]

I do agree 100% that when you breeding a certain strain of animal, genes will be passed on together although they are not necessarily dependent on each other.  I stopped breeding danes 1/4 of century ago, and in those times there were no cases of Wobblers known in OZ.    I only read about it in Great Dane Quarterly, which I subscribed to, and the opnion that long neck predisposes a dog to Wobblers was expessed there.  And considering that Wobblers syndrome is caused by a narrowing or malformation of the spinal cervical (neck) vertebrae which causes pressure on the spinal cord, it does not sound too far fetched............
Linking temperament and colour or bone is bit different story.  I had an argument in that vein here on k9 few years ago - I was arguing that temperament is unlikely dependant on colour.

Of course, Dobes in Germany were police and army dogs, and their temperament reflected that.  This sort of temperament is not desirable in today's dogs living in society, so to strive to breed dogs with gentle friendly temperament is one  improvement that i agree with, even if it is not the original trait of that breed.      :thumbsup:

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If they've found a true anatomical correlation between long necks, narrowed vertebrae, and wobblers, then that would definitely be convincing.

But just saying, "USA lines have long necks, we didn't have Wobblers before we brought in long-necked USA lines, and so long necks are responsible for Wobblers" wasn't convincing.

I'm happy to learn something new!

I have not seen any particular correlation between swanlike necks in Whippets and any sort of dread neurological disease yet, though, thank goodness! But we are a smaller and lighter breed so structural extremes wouldn't have as marked an effect, perhaps.

Are young Dobes given neck x-rays to look for narrowed vertebrae to see if they have predisposition to develop Wobblers???

Karen Lee

 

[kris]

ive already said that we took part in the only study i know about c.s.we had to fill in a questionaire and there were numerous question,about 4 A4 sheets if i remember! :wacko: questions ranged from do you feed on the floor or a raised surface,what age did you introduce a choke chain,what supplements do you give and in what amounts,is the dog allowed to run up and downstairs,what amounts of exercise do you give and at what ages etc etc.tbh i cant remember a lot of the questions.this study was done about 20 years ago.the results only gave one point of view after all the analysis and that was that it is MULTIFACTORAL.in other words its caused by a combination of things,most of which would be done unknowingly by the owner.the two main things that the geneticist picked up on were having a puppy overweight he stressed this particularly as he said its everyones view that a fat puppy is a healthy puppy when it just isnt so.he said ideally hed like to see pups on the rangey side and definately not over supplemented with calcium and vitamins etc.now id always done both of these things(well not oversupplemented i just followed the instructions on boxes of SA37 and other calcium supplements)but my puppies were always little dumplings fat round and chubby,i never stinted on food to the extent that vets in the area always knew they were bred by me cos id done them so well!they always had big round bone,and were ,well,chunky!after reading his report in the dobe club magazine i started to think am i doing wrong here?but my dogs scores were always excellent and id never had any problems with the defect so i thought i must be doing something right.(all my dogs died of old age i never lost one that wasnt into double figures so to read about dobes dropping dead at 4 from heart defects comes as a bit of a shock to me. but in those days having a fat baby was what everyone did.now we know its unhealthy for them.so i did take notice and cut back on the supplements but then when i did that youd have days when the pups would get up in a morning and their legs would be bowed like a case of rickets.id take them to the vet and hed say they just need a calcium supplement so id go back to giving it to them again. :wacko: by the way you couldnt x ray and score a dog under two as it was thought that before that age the results could be unreliable :thumbsup:i didnt hear anything about longer necks predisposing a dog to wobblers but im not saying it isnt possible.the problem with multifactoral defects is that they are a combination of things.so if you get two dobes with a longer reach of neck and one is fed on the floor, is overweight as a pup,has too much calcium and is jerked a lot on a choke chain and the other dog is slightly underweight,isnt given any supplements,isnt trained on a choke chain,and is fed on a raised surface then chances are that the first dog will develop wobblers while the second dog wont. :thumbsup:

dobes in germany are used by the police and the armed forces.but they were also used in this way in the states.the american marines in particular had a corps of dobes called the devil dogs unit.(i used to have a book about them that i brought back from the states with me)they were used in vietnam and in many jungle war zones where heavier coated dogs couldnt be used cos of the heat.but dobes were also family pets in germany and the usa.

 

[Seraphina]

i didnt hear anything about longer necks predisposing a dog to wobblers but im not saying it isnt possible.

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Look at these photos; one of 3 harlequins (50 years ago) with lovely strong and IMHO elegant neck, and then the black present day dog. It is obvious that big structural change occurred. The vertebrae must have become elongated, while lot of the muscle was lost.

So when I read that there is a conection I did not doubt it. maybe it is not connected, but even so, I think any exegaration can have some negatives

 

[Seraphina]

............questions ranged from do you feed on the floor or a raised surface,what age did you introduce a choke chain,what supplements do you give and in what amounts,is the dog allowed to run up and downstairs,what amounts of exercise do you give and at what ages etc etc.tbh ....................the two main things that the geneticist picked up on were having  a puppy overweight he stressed this particularly as he said its everyones view that a fat puppy is a healthy puppy when it just isnt so.he said ideally hed like to see pups on the rangey side and definately not over supplemented with calcium and vitamins etc.b..............t two dobes with a longer reach of neck and one is fed on the floor, is overweight as a pup,has too much calcium and is jerked a lot on a choke chain and the other dog is slightly underweight,isnt given any supplements,isnt trained on a choke chain,and is fed on a raised surface then chances are that the first dog will develop wobblers while the second dog wont. :thumbsup:

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I already said (I am sure) I accept that there are other contributing factors. The weight of pups and over supplementation etc. I gave up breeding Danes for several reasons, one being that I do not think they are suitable for city living, they are just too big and unless they have at least an acre to gallop on it is not fair to keep them. But other reasons were that i was constantly being criticized by other breeders. Mainly because my youngsters were too skinny. My baby puppies were Rolly Polly babies (and that is I believe as it should be) but by the time they were 3 months they did not carry any fat, and you could just see hint of their ribs. They were reared in the house and had unlimited access to the property. Then I admitted not to supplement while most breeders at that time injected calcium, one told me she gives her pups 20 tablets of 500g calcium. And they were all horrified that my dogs are not crated. I was told that I am destroying them. Interestingly, my dogs when adult galloped comfortably 8 km a day, did not have any bone problems. Dog needs weight bearing exercise to develop healthy bones.

I find it rather worrying that some breeds should need to be wrapped in cotton wool to grow up without problems :unsure:

Bounce 6weeks old - she was in the last litter I bred

 

[kris]

bloody hell!20 tabs of 500g calcium!and injecting calcium.what for!?are they mad? (w00t) i used to give about half a teaspoon of SA37 daily but when they were going through a growth spurt id double it for a few days till their legs straightened out and then back to the normal dose.cant believe folk are giving such massive doses of calcium. and why are they crated?a puppy needs exercise,just normal running and playing about otherwise how are their muscles and ligaments to develop? :blink:

times have changed since we took part in our survey with dr malcolm willis,so there will probably be new developments and techniques of diagnosis and treatment now and i daresay they know a lot more about these defects also.so who knows maybe breeding for extra long necks will cause problems i agree that exaggeration can cause problems.moderation should be the breeders watchword. :thumbsup:

i remember a work colleague of my husbands who had bought a dobermann puppy from a well know puppy farm near us(he didnt know us at the time he bought it or else i wouldnt have let him go there!)when the dog was about 2 years old he developed spondylosis,and he was taken to liverpool university school of veterinary medicine and they flew a specialist vet in to operate on him.it was done more or less free of charge cos it was experimental surgery and for the liverpool vets to watch and learn the technique.the dog wouldnt have had any quality of life if he hadnt been operated on as he was in terrible pain and virtually crippled,but the downside was noone had operated for this problem before so they didnt know if it would work,and as he was a fairly young dog they wanted to try the operation out on him.(sorry but i cant remember the name of the vet who did the op)i can remember my husband telling me that they had operated from his chest,through the ribcage and into the spine(sounds weird i know but that is what the guy told my husband!) and the dog made a full recovery.i believe after this when any other dog needed an operation for this that they followed the same procedure.

 

[Seraphina]

bloody hell!20 tabs of 500g calcium!and injecting calcium.what for!?are they mad? (

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That was more than 30 years ago. They believed that if the pup exercises it will damage its bones . They kept them grossly overweight and crated and ended up with totally spastic dogs, which looked as collapsing after once around the ring. Unfortunately I somehow lost all my great Dane stuff while moving from OZ to Europe and back, so I only have one folder of pics and papers, which got somehow separated

Things have changed bit since. I recently stopped to talk to a woman with nice looking dane and during the conversation asked her if she gives supplement. She looked absolutely horrified and said NO way, just good diet. ..... did i feel smug

OK, mainly glad that people do not mistreat their dogs as they used to.

 

[kris]

crikey no wonder the dogs were ending up crippled!thats a recipe for disaster!

im glad its changed now.aint it good when what you think is justified! :thumbsup: