Bbc 1

[bertha]

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I too thought that she was very brave.  She obviously loves her breed to put up with what I am sure will be severe fall out.The Kennel Club is sitting on the fence.  What is all this about losing the breeders if they put their foot down?  Where else are they going to register their pups,  and unregistered pups can't be shown nor command high selling prices?  I just don't understand this argument.

No I am not a breeder and yes it is my business.  It is every animal lovers business.

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Unregistered pedigree puppies can command high prices, enough to make it worth while breeding them! For people who just want a pet.

You need to get your facts about the KC right, they run testing schemes but not all breeders have their dogs scored for HD, or tested for PRA, so don't batter the KC just because they appeared to come out badly. They were not allowed to answer questions properly, were cut off from saying things. It was just so set up to damn anything to do with pedigree dogs, the KC and dog breeders.

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Didn't say they don't run testing schemes. Get your facts right. I still don't understand that particular argument.

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You saying the KC is sitting on the fence, they are not as far as the health of pedigree dogs is concerned. All breed clubs have to have send a Health Declaration Document to the KC every year, laying down their criteria for the health of their particular breed.

That is a fact.

 

[neave]

Neave I am not having a go at you at all. - I was making a statement (that is why I did note "quote your post")
This is an option given by the program makers last night, I do not think that Stopping Father/daughter or mother/son matings is the answer to all the health problems faced by breeds in the UK (and further afield) What I am trying to say is it will take a long time and alot of research to make health improvements.

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I totally agree (sorry i was having a bit of a rant :wub: )it will take along long time and alot of research before any health improvements are made but i think close matings such as father/daughter or mother/son dont help the situation either and people should think twice before doing so.

I also agree that the KC should take more responsibilty and ban these type of matings by not allowing pups from these mating to be registered but whether this can be policed is another matter !

 

[jayp]

In Sweden, the inbreeding coefficients of ALL litters are printed in their whippet breed club magazine, Their KC provides a service whereby all breeders can calculate how inbred any proposed litter will be

Their aim is to get the average inbreeding coefficient down and they are all working towards this

Close matings are not tolerated, havnt seen them running for cover, look on thier pedigrees and check for yourself and they continue to work with their KC to reach their goals, many litters are just 2 and 3% inbred, whereas ours are into the 20 and even 30% or more. These highly inbred dogs are being used on highly inbred bitches, sorry but that is fact

The reasons this is bad for any breed is that we are losing genes at a frightening rate, they can never,ever be recovered. Some of them may serve a purpose in protecting the animal from disease,they are so complex we have no idea which genes are lost, the more inbred an animal is the less varied is its genetic makeup

Jan

 

[June Jonigk]

Of course stopping close in-breeding (father/daughter etc) will not solve all the problems. The major problem is breeding within a small gene pool and using dogs which are unhealthy (with or without the knowledge of the owner). Talking of whippets I do not know if anyone is deliberately breeding from unhealthy dogs but they are breeding father to daughter which is deliberately flouting the advice of vetinarians and geneticists who know much more about this than the breeders themselves. These are people at the top of our breed (judged by show success) who should be setting a better example.

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I agree - the KC should stop registering pups from close in-breeding. The people at the top of our breed as you say, should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[masta]

IMO the program was too biased, what about all the healthy pedigree dogs there are?This was the BBC over stepping the mark and not allowing anybody to comment on the health programs the KC has in place, or the Cavalier clubs struggle to keep up to date on the health issues within the breed, all the testing that goes on and had been going on for various inherited and genetic problems.

It was also bound to cause loads of critisism of the KC and pedigree dog breeders regardless of who they are, and making out we are all irresponsible for breeding freaks.

Sad, but I found it difficult to watch those dogs suffering, ON CAMERA, what was the idea of that, if not being totally over the top. How on earth could those dog owners have allowed their dogs to go through all that?

I sincerely hope the KC and the Cavalier club take the BBC for task for allowing such a biased program to be broadcast.

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"IMO the program was too biased, what about all the healthy pedigree dogs there are?"

the programme was not about healthy dogs it was highlighting inherent problems in some pedigree breeds and the fact that these breed club and the KC and breeders have been aware of the said problems and neither have done anything constructive to help and put that right, oh yeah they may have paid lip service and had a few articles etc in the breed magazine, but these "guardians" of the breed have basicially broken the laws of nature time and time again until nature has rebelled dont think dogs are a lone example it has happened in many other animals i hope the Cavalier club do take the BBC to task because believe me it will not be the beeb that loses they will go to town on the whole subject digging through med records breed supplements registrations etc and it will open a can of worms

 

[Noise]

for people who missed it - it's now up on iPlayer Pedigree Dogs Exposed

 

[SilverScreen]

I too thought that she was very brave.  She obviously loves her breed to put up with what I am sure will be severe fall out.The Kennel Club is sitting on the fence.  What is all this about losing the breeders if they put their foot down?  Where else are they going to register their pups,  and unregistered pups can't be shown nor command high selling prices?  I just don't understand this argument.

No I am not a breeder and yes it is my business.  It is every animal lovers business.

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Unregistered pedigree puppies can command high prices, enough to make it worth while breeding them! For people who just want a pet.

You need to get your facts about the KC right, they run testing schemes but not all breeders have their dogs scored for HD, or tested for PRA, so don't batter the KC just because they appeared to come out badly. They were not allowed to answer questions properly, were cut off from saying things. It was just so set up to damn anything to do with pedigree dogs, the KC and dog breeders.

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Personally I think it is about time The Kennel Club was challenged about its attitudes and behaviour! I think the programme did NOT go far enough!

I have bought three new KC reg puppies in the last year and I was plagued by their aggressive insurance sales teams DAY AND NIGHT even when I had told them "no thanks". I found this terribly intrusive and vastly inappropriate.

I also take HUGE objection that they take people for a ride! For example, on the owner tranfer form, given to the people who buy our puppies, the KC offers several EXPENSIVE copies of the pedigree (which are only colour photocopies) THEY DO NOT TELL PEOPLE THERE IS A £6 Pedigree! And I could go on and on!!

My point is that The Kennel Club need to act with transparency and adopt good business practice if they are to recover and survive.

Maybe its about time that another type of Kennel Club stepped UP!! What a great business opportunity for somebody out there!

 

[muttz]

Well said Silverscreen. That was my view of the programme too.

The Kennel club know that these practices are taking place but are still happy to take the money for registering these litters.

 

[stormydog]

ive had grievances before with the Kennel Club, i found them very very rude on the phone and difficult to work with. the point made about the Pedigree colour copies is spot on.

the bottom line here is......ITS BUSINESS AND RUN BY BUSINESS PEOPLE !

 

[seaspot_run]

It sounds a little one-sided, focusing as it does on a breed which has so many problems.

I work as a groomer now and I do not necessarily see all the crosses and mixes as being totally healthy and the purebreds as being a mess. Today I shaved down several mixes which had every autoimmune skin problem and allergy known to veterinary science.

There are many reasons why our modern dogs have a tough go. So much about how they live and eat isn't really all that natural.

They are right about some of these distorted breeds, but saying that the RR people put down dogs for lacking a ridge is slander. Most of those puppies end up in pet homes--I have seen them.

 

[Seraphina]

Stopping Father/daughter or mother/son matings, in itself, is not going to improve the health of many breeds . It will take alot more!  (Ducking For Cover)

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Stopping close matings will not sort out every problem, but it would improve some.

It would improve genetic diversity, which is good basis to build on. Genetically diverse individuals have better functioning immune systems than inbred ones

Where do you draw the line ? Is grand father Grand daughter also too close ?

I, personally, always had a rule that first cousins and closer are too close. But after studying my dogs' pedigrees further back and seeing how many father-daughter, mother-son, grandfather- granddaughter matings were there, and most were to the same famous dog, I also pay lots of attention how related the stud dog is to my girls in the generations past the 4th.

However, if I had a stunning bitch and her grandfather was the most amazing dog I have ever seen, and he was not particularly close to the rest of the dogs in my bitch's pedigree, and there just would not be another dog of the quality and type, then I would do granddaughter to her grandfather. As a one of.

 

[SilverScreen]

It sounds a little one-sided, focusing as it does on a breed which has so many problems.
I work as a groomer now and I do not necessarily see all the crosses and mixes as being totally healthy and the purebreds as being a mess.  Today I shaved down several mixes which had every autoimmune skin problem and allergy known to veterinary science. 

There are many reasons why our modern dogs have a tough go.  So much about how they live and eat isn't really all that natural.

They are right about some of these distorted breeds, but saying that the RR people put down dogs for lacking a ridge is slander. Most of those puppies end up in pet homes--I have seen them.

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It's NOT SLANDER when the breeders themselves admitted they cull these puppies claiming they are "not the breed standard". Also I have friends who are vets and they have all been asked to cull perfectly healthy pups who do mot have the Ridge! I think the programme was spot on! More needs to be said, not less!!

 

[SilverScreen]

Stopping Father/daughter or mother/son matings, in itself, is not going to improve the health of many breeds . It will take alot more!  (Ducking For Cover)

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Stopping close matings will not sort out every problem, but it would improve some.

It would improve genetic diversity, which is good basis to build on. Genetically diverse individuals have better functioning immune systems than inbred ones

Where do you draw the line ? Is grand father Grand daughter also too close ?

I, personally, always had a rule that first cousins and closer are too close. But after studying my dogs' pedigrees further back and seeing how many father-daughter, mother-son, grandfather- granddaughter matings were there, and most were to the same famous dog, I also pay lots of attention how related the stud dog is to my girls in the generations past the 4th.

However, if I had a stunning bitch and her grandfather was the most amazing dog I have ever seen, and he was not particularly close to the rest of the dogs in my bitch's pedigree, and there just would not be another dog of the quality and type, then I would do granddaughter to her grandfather. As a one of.

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That is still taking an unwarrented risk for the superficiality of how a dog looks!

 

[seaspot_run]

It sounds a little one-sided, focusing as it does on a breed which has so many problems.
I work as a groomer now and I do not necessarily see all the crosses and mixes as being totally healthy and the purebreds as being a mess.  Today I shaved down several mixes which had every autoimmune skin problem and allergy known to veterinary science. 

There are many reasons why our modern dogs have a tough go.  So much about how they live and eat isn't really all that natural.

They are right about some of these distorted breeds, but saying that the RR people put down dogs for lacking a ridge is slander. Most of those puppies end up in pet homes--I have seen them.

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It's NOT SLANDER when the breeders themselves admitted they cull these puppies claiming they are "not the breed standard". Also I have friends who are vets and they have all been asked to cull perfectly healthy pups who do mot have the Ridge! I think the programme was spot on! More needs to be said, not less!!

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That is certainly not a common practice here among the RR breeders I know. There is a pet market for that breed in the USA. A ridgeless Ridgeback is not deformed, it just can't be shown, but it has as good of a chance of living to be 14 years old as a healthy pet as one with a ridge.

You can be factual, but so one-sided as to demonize, and it sounds as though this program may have succeeded in painting breeders with a very broad brush.

The genetic complaints are one thing, but most breeders are not callous about their dogs and puppies--not here, and I would be very shocked to find that they are that way in the UK, considering how much at the forefront of animal welfare issues the UK has been for decades. What about showing some breeders who really love their dogs and puppies and try hard to find the right home for everything they produce, whether it can be shown or not? Don't you think that's the majority?

Just a little balance is all I would ask. Not to sweep issues under the rug, but don't lump us all together with cosmetic puppy-cullers and habitual inbreeders.

 

[bertha]

IMO the BBC should pull out of screening Crufts, then perhaps it could return to a dog show without all the Flyball, Agility and all the other things that are screened. After all it is only another championship show with loads of trimmings, it now has little to do with actual dog showing.

No field officers are allowed to visit Crufts, it would fail dismally.

So let it revert to what it was intended to be, just s dog show.

I still don't agree with the way that program was done, it was so biased. There is no going back from it however, but there should be a program made to give a more balanced outlook on dogs and breeding them.

Personally I have always found the KC very helpful on the phone, being a breed club secretary I do have to contact them from time to time and have found them very polite.

As for photo copy pedigrees, you don't have to buy a pedigree if you don't want one!!!!!! You don't have to take out KC insurance if you don't want it. It is up to you to refuse it all!

 

[T Hoare]

IMO the BBC should pull out of screening Crufts, then perhaps it could return to a dog show without all the Flyball, Agility and all the other things that are screened. After all it is only another championship show with loads of trimmings, it now has little to do with actual dog showing.
No field officers are allowed to visit Crufts, it would fail dismally.

So let it revert to what it was intended to be, just s dog show.

I still don't agree with the way that program was done, it was so biased. There is no going back from it however, but there should be a program made to give a more balanced outlook on dogs and breeding them.

Personally I have always found the KC very helpful on the phone, being a breed club secretary I do have to contact them from time to time and have found them very polite.

As for photo copy pedigrees, you don't have to buy a pedigree if you don't want one!!!!!! You don't have to take out KC insurance if you don't want it. It is up to you to refuse it all!

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Snap, I have phoned them fairly often since February & have always had courteous phone calls.

 

[SilverScreen]

IMO the BBC should pull out of screening Crufts, then perhaps it could return to a dog show without all the Flyball, Agility and all the other things that are screened. After all it is only another championship show with loads of trimmings, it now has little to do with actual dog showing.
No field officers are allowed to visit Crufts, it would fail dismally.

So let it revert to what it was intended to be, just s dog show.

I still don't agree with the way that program was done, it was so biased. There is no going back from it however, but there should be a program made to give a more balanced outlook on dogs and breeding them.

Personally I have always found the KC very helpful on the phone, being a breed club secretary I do have to contact them from time to time and have found them very polite.

As for photo copy pedigrees, you don't have to buy a pedigree if you don't want one!!!!!! You don't have to take out KC insurance if you don't want it. It is up to you to refuse it all!

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You have totally missed the points raised! And what you have to say about the pedigrees and insurance makes no sense and is suspiciously defensive on behalf of the KC!

The programme makers obviously know that a lot of good breeding and dog ownership is out there but they only had an hour to tell this story (which has needed telling for MANY years) and so obviously concentrated on what needed to be said. Is the NEWS full of good news? No, there is not time - it tells us what we need to know and informs us of what is MOST urgent. This is what Pedigree Dogs Exposed did!

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

Do you think it would be a good idea if when new owners receive their paperwork from the KC a form with their dogs details was included to be filled out by a vet in the case of any major illness and returned to the KC? That way they may get feedback from many more pet owners. :thumbsup:

 

[fewterer]

Do you think it would be a good idea if when new owners receive their paperwork from the KC a form with their dogs details was included to be filled out by a vet in the case of any major illness and returned to the KC?  That way they may get feedback from many more pet owners. :thumbsup:

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There is already a good deal of feedback/statistics about the health profile of pedigree breeds via pet insurances schemes, as premiums are calculated by actuaries, based on the statistical likelihood of having to pay out for the treatment of conditions.

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

Do you think it would be a good idea if when new owners receive their paperwork from the KC a form with their dogs details was included to be filled out by a vet in the case of any major illness and returned to the KC?  That way they may get feedback from many more pet owners. :thumbsup:

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There is already a good deal of feedback/statistics about the health profile of pedigree breeds via pet insurances schemes, as premiums are calculated by actuaries, based on the statistical likelihood of having to pay out for the treatment of conditions.

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But do these pinpoint stud dog/brood bitch? Could be of great help to breeders.