Best time to spay a dog?

[Violet Turner]

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I'm glad i read this thread. What about male dogs? The vet suggested that Frankie gets the snip at 6 months old. Thank you

why are you having him neutered? you can have him neutered from any were between 5 to 16 months but i recommend waiting until 1 years old because then he's fully matured. If you neuter a dog too early before the hormones have fully developed, then they stay a puppy for ever you might like this stage but it will just get worse; chewing everything, weeing everywhere and humping forever! this is only some *Examples of this event. Hope This Helps

 

[FrankieDoodle]

why are you having him neutered? you can have him neutered from any were between 5 to 16 months but i recommend waiting until 1 years old because then he's fully matured. If you neuter a dog too early before the hormones have fully developed, then they stay a puppy for ever you might like this stage but it will just get worse; chewing everything, weeing everywhere and humping forever! this is only some *Examples of this event. Hope This Helps

Thank you. It has helped. At Frankies last vet visit I bought up the subject and ironically she said at 6 months as it helps to calm young dogs down.

 

[Violet Turner]

Thank you. It has helped. At Frankies last vet visit I bought up the subject and ironically she said at 6 months as it helps to calm young dogs down.

 

[Mrs S]

I'm glad I read this thread too... We were debating whether to look into having Giz done (he's 6 months) in the hope it might settle him a bit... However I didn't consider that it may affect his development. Would you suggest we wait until he's at least a year old?

 

[leashedForLife]

Because it's generally thought, I believe, that you shouldn't spay or castrate a dog until it's fully grown and mentally mature.
This will mean that a [Scottish] Deerhound or Great Dane, for example, should not be spayed as early as a small dog. Deerhounds are still more or less puppies at two years of age.

I

... What about male dogs?
The vet suggested ...Frankie get the snip at 6 months old.
...

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for Fs, there is significant short-term risk of Pyo [as noted above] which continues as long as she has a uterus.
intact-Fs also have a sharply-greater risk of UTIs v Ms; once spayed, their risk is still higher than that of M dogs, but the difference is less-extreme.

The LONG-term risk for F-dogs, of all breeds & any size, is mammary cancer.
The standard recommendation in the USA & Aus for Fs who are not potential dams, is to spay by 6-MO - b/c spaying BEFORE the 1st estrus eliminates 99.999% of a F-dog's risk of breast cancer; each estrus she goes thru, adds to her risk.
Vets here & in Oz do not tell owners of giant-breed bitches to "wait till she's 2-YO" to spay; they say, do it B4 the 1st estrus, & as that can occur anytime from 5-MO on, between 5 & 6-MO is a perfectly reasonable age.

- breast cancer is 4X as common in F-dogs as in F-humans
- almost 7 of every 10 F dogs who are diagnosed with mammary tumors are euthanized at the same vet-appt; by the time she has symptoms & is seen by a vet, it's already metastasized to her lungs, & cannot be treated.
[The precise figure is 68% of Dx'ed F-dogs in the U-S are put down during the same vet-appt, when their mammary cancer is discovered, & a chest X-ray shows cancer in one or both lungs.]

I'll add that pediatric desex [S/N done on healthy pups or kittens who weigh 2# or more, generally between 8-WO & 12-WO] is significantly safer for that pup or kitten than later S/N, during the pre-pubertal stage, which is safer than pubertal S/N, which is in turn, safer than adult S/N.
S/N patients who are under 3-MO have huge advantages: they fast for a shorter time B4 surgery, are under G-A for a shorter time, lose less blood, have far-fewer complications than their elders, suffer less post-surgical pain, heal faster, & have less scarring - by which i don't mean external / cosmetic or visible scars, i mean INTERNAL scars, which can cause chronic complications [bladder adhesions to the abdominal wall, for instance] or can make any future surgeries difficult.
Less scarring internally means a very-low risk of complications, now or thru the pet's lifetime.

Kittens or pups after "early" S/N are up & bouncing around in a few hours, eating, drinking, & playing, with none of the sad-sack hangovers of 6-MO animals, whose adrenals are slammed by their longer time under anaesthesia. Millions upon millions of pups & kittens in shelters & rescues have had pediatric S/N, starting in 1972 in the USA, & gone on to long, active, normal lives. It's now standard-procedure in US & Australian shelters & rescues, & early S/N in the UK is offered by many ethical cat-breeders, who desex B4 the kitten leaves their custody for the buyer's home.

As a trainer, if a client tells me they won't be breeding this pup, i suggest 5.5 to 6-MO for any dog of any breed or mix, & especially for young pups who already display same-sex dog-aggro [not rare in M Scotties, M JRTs, many classic terrierrrists, M Bouvier, M Bostons, M Giant Russian Black Terriers...], I suggest they talk to their vet about neutering between 3 & 4-MO.
Waiting for the advent of full-on puberty at 6-MO won't improve their pup's same-sex aggro. It exacerbates it.

- terry

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[JudyN]

@leashedForLife, are you discounting all the evidence of the negative impact of early neutering, e.g. increased risk of bone cancers, abnormal joint development, urinary incontinence, decreased longevity and the dog not maturing mentally? Sure, a male dog may show increased aggression when the testosterone kicks in, but it's also argued that they need that testosterone to develop confidence and without it can develop fear aggression. This link does reference some scientific studies though: Dog Neutering: The Unspoken Risks Of Neutering | Dogs First

Sadly the evidence on the internet is confusing and a lot of sources are biased in one way or another.

 

[Sezzy]

We had Misty speyed after her second season, so she was about 18months old. We were going to have her done after her first season, but it would have meant her recovery period would have coincided with Christmas and I didn’t want to ruin that for her , that’s the only reason we then waited until after the second time.

 

[Caro Perry]

I'm in no hurry to have Harri neutered. I don't expect we'll want to breed for him so it's not off the agenda but I doubt it'll be before he's fully physically mature. I'm not sure Welshies ever mature mentally!

 

[merlina]

I've worked for a couple of rescues and of course they tend to spay very early because unwanted puppies keep them overwhelmed. But I agree that a well cared for dog of either sex should be allowed to mature before spaying- and vet friend feels the same though will spay rescue dogs if asked because it helps get them a home. As for castration for calming down male dogs, surely this is a quick fix rather than put the work in with exercise and training? We've only ever castrated our male boys for medical reasons (prostate- yes, dogs too!). I think all dogs should be allowed their exuberant youth even if it means the zoomies every night and a wrecked house/garden.

 

[leashedForLife]

.
As far as Mother Nature is concerned, M dogs are "mature" as soon as they're not firing blanks -
IOW, they produce fertile sperm, & can sire a litter... which is at approx 6-MO. // Similarly, biology sez that a F dog is mature when she can breed - at her 1st estrus, which is generally about 6 to 7-MO, but can be later, depending upon her own F forebears & their 1st estrus [her dam, granddam, etc], & breed is also a factor - Whippets for ex., tend to have their 1st heats around 8 to 9-MO.

I'm certainly not advocating that anyone breed a M-dog at 6-MO, nor a young bitch on her 1st heat! -
only pointing out that Nature's opinion is that any animal of any species which can reproduce is "an adult".
That dogs can breed does not mean that they *should* breed - the 2 are very separate topics, IMO.

One highly-precocious & indeed, oversexed M pup actually bred his own dam at the tender age of 4-mos.
[His breeder called him 'Romeo' as a pup, b/c of his humpomatic habits; he mounted his siblings starting at 8-WO, & his dam needed a mismate jab to terminate their mother/son litter. He was a CKCS, in Britain.]

My personal opinion is that no dog should be bred B4 they're 2-YO, & i do mean 24-MO.
This serves 2 critical purposes: it allows heritable issues that might affect that dog time to become symptomatic, & it extends the lifespan of the pups who are born by an average of 2-years.
Source of both facts:
https://www.amazon.com/Control-Canine-Genetic-Diseases-Reference/dp/0876050046

- terry

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[thedogsbeforetime]

2-6 years old; for both males and females. I prefer 4 years old for pets, and 6 years old for breeders. If you feel the need to get it done ASAP, no earlier then 2 years old.

I refuse to have them done earlier than 2 years old, as I want them fully mature, and would rather do it in their prime - instead of never doing it and having a health issue come up when they're old due to not having it done. Which is a changed view for me, as I used to be against altering at all.

I find it disturbing how much vets still push for altering PUPPIES. Who need their hormones for proper growth. Thankfully, studies are being done more so these days to show why early altering is not good to do - and the effects it has on dogs as they age. So, maybe one day the sad reality of early altering will be a thing of the past.

 

[leashedForLife]

I've worked for a couple of rescues and of course they tend to spay very early because unwanted puppies keep them overwhelmed.

But I agree that a well cared for dog of either sex should be allowed to mature before spaying- and vet friend feels the same though will spay rescue dogs if asked because it helps get them a home.

As for castration for calming down male dogs, surely this is a quick fix rather than put the work in with exercise and training?

We've only ever castrated our male boys for medical reasons (prostate- yes, dogs too!).
I think all dogs should be allowed their exuberant youth, even if it means the zoomies every night and a wrecked house/garden.

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here in the U-S, rescues & shelters desex pups & kittens 'early' [pediatric, meaning B4 they're 12-WO] so that they can offer them for adoption - not b/c they think they're get pregnant at 3-MO, but to ensure that they ARE desexed B4 they leave their possession.
Even if adopters sign a contract that stipulates they will be fined, & their pet can be confiscated, if they FAIL to desex her or him - the U-S national average for S/N compliance is only 40%. That leaves 60% of adoptees intact - so shelters & rescues must, perforce, desex them B4 they transfer ownership.

When i suggest neutering M pups B4 they enter their super-male period [9 to 11-MO], i'm not talking about the inconvenience of zoomies, or a few plants dug-up or knocked over.
I'm talking about Male-Specific, Hormonally-Driven behaviors that appear at 4 to 6-MO, but intensify during the super-male stage to the point of becoming obnoxious, & which can cost a dog his home: escaping to roam, leg-lifting indoors or other inapropos marking, M:M reactivity or aggro, mounting other dogs & /or humans habitually, pestering F dogs of all ages whether they're reproductively-intact or long-since spayed or even pre-pubertal pups, & so on.

Novice owners often have no clue what they will face as their 1st-time pup grows up, & i don't think they're required to shepherd their M pups thru the most-awkward & trying stage of their lives, when they have NO INTENTION of ever breeding that dog, just to satisfy others' desires that their pups stay intact longer.
Only the owner or the family who live with that dog, get to decide when they want to snip him.

That also means that as a trainer, i sometimes must deal with truly obnoxious, or even aggressive or [rarely] dangerous, M dogs who *should* have been long-since neutered. // I can recommend that a dog be neutered - I can't mandate it; & if i cannot deal with the dog, intact, & the owner insists on keeping him so, then my only recourse is to quit the case.
That's only happened 3 times in over 35-years of training, & all 3 dogs had bite histories - one had been deemed "a dangerous dog" by the courts, & had been whisked out of the state to evade mandatory neutering.
After i quit, 2 more trainers attempted to work with that particular dog & his owner; she still wanted to breed him, & he bit 2 more ppl within the next 2-mos. He was finally euthanized - 5-mos after i'd quit, still intact, when he bit his F owner's forearm to the bone, & caused nerve damage to her right hand. Thank God, she'd never actually sired a litter, using him. Presa Canarios don't need any more bad actors or bad press.

- terry

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[leashedForLife]

@leashedForLife,
are you discounting all the evidence of the negative impact of early neutering, e.g. increased risk of bone cancers, abnormal joint development, urinary incontinence, decreased longevity, and the dog not maturing mentally?

Sure, a male dog may show increased aggression when the testosterone kicks in, but it's also argued that [male dogs] need that testosterone to develop confidence, & without it, can develop fear aggression.
This link does reference some scientific studies though: Dog Neutering: The Unspoken Risks Of Neutering | Dogs First

Sadly the evidence on the internet is confusing and a lot of sources are biased in one way or another.

.

Can U cite any studies that support the statement that dogs neutered "before maturity" never mature mentally?
I've never seen any statement to that effect, in any peer-reviewed journal article.

IMO, the AVMA is a pretty reputable source -
An overview of pediatric spay and neuter benefits and techniques

Quote from the page cited above,
"Other organizations [besides the AVMA] supporting pediatric neutering are the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association [6], the British Small Animal Veterinary Association [7], & the American Animal Hospital Association [8]."

[The bracketed numbers indicate footnotes in the bibliography of the article.]


Quote, continued:
"ADVANTAGES OF PEDIATRIC SPAY AND NEUTER
In addition to the commonly accepted health benefits associated with ovariohysterectomy & orchiectomy, such as reducing the incidence of mammary neoplasia & behavioral problems, pediatric (between 8 and 16 weeks of age) spay and neuter offer additional advantages.
They are effective tools for dealing with the overpopulation of unwanted dogs and cats. The surgical procedures are easier, faster, & less expensive than in adult animals [9, 10]. With shorter surgery times and shorter anesthetic episodes, the incidence of perioperative complications is low [9]. Anesthetic recovery and healing are shorter than in adults as well [9, 11]."

I will also add that, tho they are not listed in the article, the Australian veterinary association also approves of pediatric desex & has conducted extensive studies, proving its safety - which, as i've already said, is statistically far greater than pubertal S/N, & pubertal S/N is in turn, safer than S/N of adult dogs & cats.

- terry

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[JudyN]

Can U cite any studies that support the statement that dogs neutered "before maturity" never mature mentally?
I've never seen any statement to that effect, in any peer-reviewed journal article.

Proper studies, probably not. But the study you mention doesn't say that this isn't the case, and didn't look itself at behavioural issues - it just refers to the 'commonly held belief' that it helps with behavioural issues. Medically, I'm quite ready to accept that the procedure is safer at a younger age, but there are still concerns about the long-term behavioural effects that I don't think this study addresses.

This article gives the other side: Should You Spay Castrate (Neuter) Your Dog? No, it's not peer-reviewed, but you can't discount the risk until it's been properly assessed. This study, published in a peer-reviewed journal, also indicates that spay/neuter doesn't reduce aggression: Aggression toward Familiar People, Strangers, and Conspecifics in Gonadectomized and Intact Dogs

And more: Are There Behavior Changes When Dogs Are Spayed or Neutered?

I'm not interested in trading studies and statistics, looking at the qualifications and the motivations of the authors, because it gets far too complex. What I am saying is that I think there's still a case to be proven either way so the picture is not clear cut - and studies that only look at the medical aspects don't give the whole answer.