Bulldog puppies balls haven’t dropped yet help

[Ssbd7]

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Hi I have a 18 week old English bulldog, everything is perfect with him apart from his balls haven’t dropped. Our vet said he needs to be castrated at 6 months if nothing happens, we really don’t want this as we would hopefully like to breed him, has anybody had similar experiences
Thanks in advance

 

[JoanneF]

Your vet is right, you will have no choice unless they descend.

However, in terms of breeding, it's rather early to be thinking about that - there are so many badly bred dogs that to justify breeding from him ethically you ought to be able to demonstrate that he will bring something to the breed. So, some show wins would be the starting point. Do you know what his parents' hip and elbow scores were?

 

[leashedForLife]

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Agreeing with @JoanneF here, it’s never “too early” to consider neutering a M pup, as any healthy pup can be safely desexed as soon as they weigh 2# / 1-kg, & in fact, pediatric desex is the safest age to desex any dog (pediatric is before 12-WO).

As approx 50% of pups are M, & only a few are needed to sire the next generation, any prospective sire must be good enuf to consider him excellent. There is no point in reproducing mediocre dogs; the intention of breeding is always to produce pups who are BETTER THAN their parents.
So there are always huge numbers of M dogs who are simply excess; they are not needed to breed, & in fact are not wanted to breed, as they are not excellent representatives of their breeds, or they have less than stellar temperaments.

Mere physical looks are not enuf; any dog of either sex needs to be screened for heritable issues, which isn’t cheap, plus they should earn some recognition by folks other than their doting owners that they are, indeed, excellent specimens, physically, mentally, emotionally stable, & in performance. It’s not just looks.

Good joints, eyes, skin, ears, open nostrils (not vertical slits), good teeth, & so on, are only the beginning. Only radiographs can reveal if his hips, knees, & elbows are good to excellent, & I would recommend Penn-HIP as the scoring process, not the BVA scheme (in the UK) nor the AKC version (in the U-S) which uses the OFA - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals.

Penn-HIP scores dogs within their breeds, not as compared to an “ideal sighthound skeleton”, as OFA does, but GSD to GSD, Beagle to Beagle, etc. // ALL the dogs who are radiographed are kept on file, U cannot cherry-pick & decide not to record / file the x-rays of a dog with poor joints, so Penn-HIP is far more accurate in ratings, plus it tracks the breed’s ongoing joint quality, for better or worse.
Neither BVA nor OFA track breed statistics with any accuracy, as both are opt-in, & lousy rads are tossed in the trashcan, not filed.

Bulldogs have multiple heritable issues, which should all be screened for, prior to even considering a dog as sire or dam material. Eyes, ears, soft palate, spine & tail, knees, etc, have particular Bully problems, all of them heritable.

Cryptic gonads / retained testes are highly, highly heritable, so I would personally get him neutered, if he was mine. // Normal development has both testes in the scrotum by 6-WO, before they even leave their dam and littermates.


- terry

EDITED:
Just saw that the iPad “corrected” my use of the plural ‘doting owners’ to make it, wrongly, “doting owner’s”. Why does software think it knows grammar better than a native speaker? ...

.

 

[Ssbd7]

Your vet is right, you will have no choice unless they descend.

However, in terms of breeding, it's rather early to be thinking about that - there are so many badly bred dogs that to justify breeding from him ethically you ought to be able to demonstrate that he will bring something to the breed. So, some show wins would be the starting point. Do you know what his parents' hip and elbow scores were?

His parents hip scores etc are all fine, and we weren’t thinking of breeding him just now, possibly in the future? Maybe ?Maybe not, we’ve had chowchows for 20 years but never came across this issue before, castration is not what I would like to happen to him I’ve heard the can take up to 1 year plus on bulldog breeds

 

[Ssbd7]

.

Agreeing with @JoanneF here, it’s never “too early” to consider neutering a M pup, as any healthy pup can be safely desexed as soon as they weigh 2# / 1-kg, & in fact, pediatric desex is the safest age to desex any dog (pediatric is before 12-WO).

As approx 50% of pups are M, & only a few are needed to sire the next generation, any prospective sire must be good enuf to consider him excellent. There is no point in reproducing mediocre dogs; the intention of breeding is always to produce pups who are BETTER THAN their parents.
So there are always huge numbers of M dogs who are simply excess; they are not needed to breed, & in fact are not wanted to breed, as they are not excellent representatives of their breeds, or they have less than stellar temperaments.

Mere physical looks are not enuf; any dog of either sex needs to be screened for heritable issues, which isn’t cheap, plus they should earn some recognition by folks other than their doting owner’s that they are, indeed, excellent specimens, physically, mentally, emotionally stable, & in performance. It’s not just looks.

Good joints, eyes, skin, ears, open nostrils (not vertical slits), good teeth, & so on, are only the beginning. Only radiographs can reveal if his hips, knees, & elbows are good to excellent, & I would recommend Penn-HIP as the scoring process, not the BVA scheme (in the UK) nor the AKC version (in the U-S) which uses the OFA - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals.

Penn-HIP is scores dogs within their breeds, not compared to an “ideal sighthound skeleton” as OFA does, but GSD to GSD, Beagle to Beagle, etc. // ALL the dogs who are radiographer are kept on file, U cannot cherry-pick & decide not to record / file the x-rays of a dog with poor joints, so Penn-HIP is far more accurate in ratings, plus it tracks the breed’s ongoing joint quality, for better or worse.
Neither BVA nor OFA track breed statistics with any accuracy, as both are opt-in, & lousy rads are tossed in the trashcan, not filed.

Bulldogs have multiple heritable issues, which should all be screened for prior to even considering a dog as sire or dam material. Eyes, ears, soft palate, spine & tail, knees, etc, have particular Bully problems, all of them heritable.

Cryptic gonads / retained testes are highly, highly heritable, so I would personally get him neutered, if he was mine. // Normal development has both testes in the scrotum by 6-WO, before they even leave their dam and littermates.


- terry

.

Well a

.

Agreeing with @JoanneF here, it’s never “too early” to consider neutering a M pup, as any healthy pup can be safely desexed as soon as they weigh 2# / 1-kg, & in fact, pediatric desex is the safest age to desex any dog (pediatric is before 12-WO).

As approx 50% of pups are M, & only a few are needed to sire the next generation, any prospective sire must be good enuf to consider him excellent. There is no point in reproducing mediocre dogs; the intention of breeding is always to produce pups who are BETTER THAN their parents.
So there are always huge numbers of M dogs who are simply excess; they are not needed to breed, & in fact are not wanted to breed, as they are not excellent representatives of their breeds, or they have less than stellar temperaments.

Mere physical looks are not enuf; any dog of either sex needs to be screened for heritable issues, which isn’t cheap, plus they should earn some recognition by folks other than their doting owner’s that they are, indeed, excellent specimens, physically, mentally, emotionally stable, & in performance. It’s not just looks.

Good joints, eyes, skin, ears, open nostrils (not vertical slits), good teeth, & so on, are only the beginning. Only radiographs can reveal if his hips, knees, & elbows are good to excellent, & I would recommend Penn-HIP as the scoring process, not the BVA scheme (in the UK) nor the AKC version (in the U-S) which uses the OFA - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals.

Penn-HIP is scores dogs within their breeds, not compared to an “ideal sighthound skeleton” as OFA does, but GSD to GSD, Beagle to Beagle, etc. // ALL the dogs who are radiographer are kept on file, U cannot cherry-pick & decide not to record / file the x-rays of a dog with poor joints, so Penn-HIP is far more accurate in ratings, plus it tracks the breed’s ongoing joint quality, for better or worse.
Neither BVA nor OFA track breed statistics with any accuracy, as both are opt-in, & lousy rads are tossed in the trashcan, not filed.

Bulldogs have multiple heritable issues, which should all be screened for prior to even considering a dog as sire or dam material. Eyes, ears, soft palate, spine & tail, knees, etc, have particular Bully problems, all of them heritable.

Cryptic gonads / retained testes are highly, highly heritable, so I would personally get him neutered, if he was mine. // Normal development has both testes in the scrotum by 6-WO, before they even leave their dam and littermates.


- terry

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well thank god your not the vet,, I think I’ll take my chances and wait till he’s a year to decide what’s what,

 

[JoanneF]

we weren’t thinking of breeding him just now, possibly in the future?

Of course, he is obviously too young just now anyway. But as bulldogs have such serious health and conformation issues, and are actually very high risk to breed because of the potential for dystocia (the size of the puppies' heads in relation to the dam's pelvis) a responsible breeder will not want to risk his female unless your boy is an exemplar of the breed. And thats why i suggested showing him (even if showing isn't something you are particularly interested in) so you have independent endorsement of his quality.

Edited to add: in breeding, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

[leashedForLife]

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Errrm... I didn’t make up that statement from thin air, @Ssbd7 -

There have been repeated retrospective studies done, around the world, that are quite conclusive.
Pediatric desex is safer for many reasons: less bleeding, less pain, fewer complications of all kinds, from minor to catastrophic.

Young pups fast briefly, are under GA for much shorter times, recover from both anaesthesia & surgery faster, & heal quicker than prepubertal pups, who in turn heal faster & have fewer complications than pubertal S/N patients, and traditional-age desex is in turn, safer than adult S/N surgery.

Don’t take my word for it, Google Schiolar is chock-full of research articles from peer-reviewed journals.

Here’s one example of search results:
Google Scholar+neutering+%2B+safety%2C+puppy&btnG=

 

[Ssbd7]

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Errrm... I didn’t make up that statement from thin air, @Ssbd7 -

There have been repeated retrospective studies done, around the world, that are quite conclusive.
Pediatric desex is safer for many reasons: less bleeding, less pain, fewer complications of all kinds, from minor to catastrophic.

Young pups fast briefly, are under GA for much shorter times, recover from both anaesthesia & surgery faster, & heal quicker than prepubertal pups, who in turn heal faster & have fewer complications than pubertal S/N patients, and traditional-age desex is in turn, safer than adult S/N surgery.

Don’t take my word for it, Google Schiolar is chock-full of research articles from peer-reviewed journals.

Here’s one example of search results:
Google Scholar+neutering+%2B+safety%2C+puppy&btnG=

You talk like a computer, it’s cool I will wait and see what happens

 

[leashedForLife]

.

Damn this iPad, I can’t copy / paste links!—- I laboriously typed every bl**dy character of a 50 or so character address, & the LINK broke.

Anyway, enter “pediatric neutering + safety, puppy” on the Google Scholar home page, & dozens of articles will come up, with actual data on the topic.

Meanwhile, the AVAR list of heritable issues in purebred dogs would be a useful resource, to look up English Bulldogs, & see what specific issues are heritable concerns in the breed.

CANINE CONGENITAL AND INHERITED DISORDERS | TheDogPlace.org

I see 35 heritable problems listed beside Engl. Bulldog, some of which cannot be screened for, while others will have tests which can differentiate a carrier from an affected dog, & either of those statuses from a dog who is free of that problem, entirely.

154, for instance, hydrocephalus, may or may not have a genetic test.
179, keratitis sicca or “dry eye”, can be tested in the individual dog, but so far as I know, there is no screen which can determine carrier / affected / clear.
Pulmonic & pyloric stenosis, 260 & 261, respectively, are cardiac & stomach valve problems that are known to occur in Engl Bulldogs, but again, I don’t know of any test which can screen for them.

Stenotic nares are only an external sign of stenosis (narrowing) thru out the dog’s entire sinus & airway, clear to the tracheal opening in their throat - the nostrils are VISIBLE, & don’t need a test. Dogs should have nice wide round dots for nostrils, not narrow vertical slits, as that indicates the dog has a patent airway all thru the skull’s bony tissues and also thru the soft tissues of the upper throat.


As for my personal credentials, no, i’m not a veterinarian.

I planned to become one, but with only 17 accredited universities offering a DVM when I was in college, getting into grad school was a lottery drawing. (There are now 22 universities where U can complete a vet-Med degree, whoopee - meanwhile, U can spit in any direction & hit a medical school of some sort, in any good sized town in America. )

Carrying a dual major, I completed 134 credits: AgEd & Animal Science, with a GPA of 3.2, at Penn State Univ.
I am also a Certified Vet’s Assistant, with many years experience as a dog handler & trainer, beginning when I was 10 in 4-H, & I’ve been training other folks’ pets as a professional since I was 18. // That was over 40 years ago.

I did wildlife rehab before it required a license, using my biology teacher & my local vet as my support network.

I have owned, trained, handled, & cared for many exotic, domestic, & wild species, plus bred, owned, and cared for domestic species (dogs, cats, rabbits, sheep, geese, ducks, chickens, horses).
I’ve taught an Amazon parrot to roller skate, & a head-shy horse to put on his own halter or bridle, although a human has to buckle them, once on. I’ve trained cats to play fetch, & a box tortoise to come when called.

If there’s anything else U’d like to know about my background or working knowledge, i’ll be happy to provide a list of some of the conferences, workshops, seminars, & other classes I have attended - currently, i’m taking Udemy courses, & have an ongoing subscription to Behavior Education Network (BEN) run by Suzanne Hetts, PhD, & Dan Estep, PhD.

- terry

Terry Pride, PCA / CHHA;
CVA, member Truly Dog-Friendly
Past member, USA-apdt, Aus-APDT, & Intl. Positive Dog Trainers Assoc.


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[JoanneF]

I will wait and see what happens

This worries me. Do you realise that undescended testicles can cause serious and life limiting health problems? And British bulldogs already have an extremely short lifespan .

 

[Ssbd7]

This worries me. Do you realise that undescended testicles can cause serious and life limiting health problems? And British bulldogs already have an extremely short lifespan .

I wish I hadn’t signed up to this form it’s so depressing, and probably full of puppy farms or nerds I’m now going to delete my profile, enjoy your sad life
Leashedforlife

 

[JoanneF]

probably full of puppy farms

Ironically, irresponsible breeding is what we were trying to prevent. I doubt the OP will be back but hopefully the information we have offered in our replies will help someone who may read this in future.

 

[Josie]

I can understand that breeding is a sensitive subject and that the importance of breeding correctly is essential. This is very clear to see in the posts.

However,

Lately I feel that anyone that even mentions the word breeding gets an unfair grilling. The OP was asking for advice - the first post even stated they had been to the vet about it.

This is a friendly forum and I want to keep it that way.

 

[JoanneF]

I dont think its unfriendly to point out that if he wants to breed responsibly, his dog (which is currently only 18 weeks old) ought to have proven qualities. British Bulldogs are difficult to mate naturally and are one of the high profile breeds designated by the Kennel Club as requiring particular monitoring for conditions which may cause health and welfare problems. I also think it wasn't unfriendly to highlight the risks of taking a somewhat cavalier 'wait and see' approach to an undescended testicle, which can lead to serious health problems (including cancer).

He was given advice by his vet - castrate if the testicle doesn't drop. He asked here and was told the same thing. I don't think we were unfriendly to the OP, we just didn't tell him what he wanted to hear.

 

[Josie]

I dont think its unfriendly to point out that if he wants to breed responsibly, his dog (which is currently only 18 weeks old) ought to have proven qualities. British Bulldogs are difficult to mate naturally and are one of the high profile breeds designated by the Kennel Club as requiring particular monitoring for conditions which may cause health and welfare problems. I also think it wasn't unfriendly to highlight the risks of taking a somewhat cavalier 'wait and see' approach to an undescended testicle, which can lead to serious health problems (including cancer).

He was given advice by his vet - castrate if the testicle doesn't drop. He asked here and was told the same thing. I don't think we were unfriendly to the OP, we just didn't tell him what he wanted to hear.

I’m sorry but I have to disagree with you.

Of course there are health issues when breeding dogs and it’s important that all people are aware of this if they intend to breed - do they have to prove to this forum that their dog meets those health qualities before they post anything about breeding? It feels that way. To me personally, the advice feels like more of an attack on that person - this is the second person to feel this way during these types of discussions.

I am not suggesting that advice shouldn’t be given or condoning poor breeding. I just feel like the person gets a member assignation!

 

[PWDmum]

t 18 weeks there is still a little time for them to drop, but to be honest it is unlikely, have you spoken to the breeder about this. And did you buy him with the intention for the future to use him at stud , did and does your breeder know this, did he have endorsements on his breeding,and is he KC REGISTERED, undescended testicle can be hereditary, so you realy need to speak to the breeder to find out his history.

I would not be panicked into castration just yet I’m not of the camp that some seem to be in that you should castrate and spay everything in sight as soon as possible, but you need to face up to the fact if his testicle do not drop he wil need to castrated at some point, as retained testicles can lead to cancer due. It if he is was mine I would just keep an eye on Him for. While before making the final decision .

 

[Janet Stiles]

His parents hip scores etc are all fine, and we weren’t thinking of breeding him just now, possibly in the future? Maybe ?Maybe not, we’ve had chowchows for 20 years but never came across this issue before, castration is not what I would like to happen to him I’ve heard the can take up to 1 year plus on bulldog breeds
If your pup was from reputable breeder, ie Kennel Club approved, you should be able to go back to him/her to ask about the usual age for testicles descending in bulldogs.

 

[Janet Stiles]

If your pup was from a reputable breeder, ie Kennel Club approved, you should be able to go back to them and ask the usual age for testicles descending in bulldogs.

 

[Ssbd7]

Just a update
He is an old English Bulldog, not and English Bulldog,
The breeder who is reputable breeder says it’s not uncommon for old English Bulldog to descend at even 1 year old, or more so don’t be in a hurry for castration. And I’m with josie on this i felt like my puppy was a duffer to all of the perfect people on hear with there show stopping dogs not a friendly atmosphere . I am clueless even though we’ve had dogs , “ Doberman, border collie, mongral, 2 chowchows, in the last 30 years,,,,all female may I add, so we never encountered this, I was hoping for a friendly chat with someone with experience with the issue i raised, we did show our chowchows and the both had qualified for crufts numerous times with the CC wins they had however show dogs is all about backhanders, and who you know, nothing to do with how good your dog is, we learned that the hard way unfortunately
Thanks for all the replies positive and negative I will keep my cavalier approach to myself....unbelievable

 

[leashedForLife]

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Note to @Josie -
according to the initial post, this pup is bilaterally cryptorchid (IOW, neither testis has descended from the abdomen to the scrotum).


I’m sorry to disagree with the breeder -
but “testes descending the inguinal canal” is not a breed-specific developmental stage; Bulldogs’ testes, whether Ye Olde or standard Brit Bulldog, American Bulldog, Alapaha Blueblood, whatever bully-breed they might be, descend no earlier or later than other breeds.

Any M pup of any breed, or indeed, any crossbreed or random mix, should have both testes in their scrotum by 5 to 6-weeks age. // If the pup is a planned future sire, & his testes are still in his abdomen at 8-WO, most breeders would sigh heavily, wipe away a tear or 3, get him neutered, & sell him as a pet.

Cryptorchid is very-highly heritable, & males whose testes don’t drop naturally & on schedule, should not be bred. Most especially, a possible sire for a breed that has a slew of health issues, including respiratory & joint problems, brachycephalic syndrome, cardiac & eye issues, & a short life expectancy.

Another ethical breeder of a UK-native breed would be fantastic. But I think that the “Olde” Brit Bulldog is a re-created breed, produced by outcrossing for desired traits, & also to avoid a foundation bottleneck?

I am not dismissing the idea of carefully planned outcrosses, since any closed gene pool is an inevitable dead-end; however, it’s very hard to get predictably consistent traits in a “new breed” created by crossing established breeds.

The original Australian kennel that did the initial Labrador x Poodle cross, in the hope of developing a low-allergen, mandatory-groom crossbreed as a guide dog, has diligently scored & culled their progeny for over 30 years - yet they still produce pups who fail to meet their criteria, & cannot be used as breeding stock, or cannot become working Guide Dogs.
It takes a long time, & a dedicated, very co-operative group of breeders, to achieve a new breed that throws predictable traits, & which is recognizable as a distinct breed.

Another concern about this particular puppy is, as the vet said, if his testes are still retained at 6-MO, they need to come out promptly. // The longer his testes stay trapped in the abdomen at body temperatures they were not evolved to tolerate, the higher his risk of several different cancers - not as an aged senior dog, but as a young adult.
It would be a real pity to lose him to a preventable disease.


I would not take medical advice about my dog from a breeder, no matter how experienced or knowledgeable s/he might be; veterinarians are licensed medical pros, & once we go beyond the 1st-Aid subsection, no one but a licensed vet can give medical advice, diagnose, prescribe treatment, or opine on the prognosis of that animal.
We lay folks can express opinions, but that’s all they are; qualified medical advice can only come from qualified medical professionals.

- terry

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