Cheating?

[UKUSA]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

what a load of nonsense. Whats worse a dog with chalk on it or a dog with a bad front or incorrect movement or a hundred other bad faults. Go around the Bull Terrier ring if anyone is worried about chalk theywill faint when they see the amount of chalk that gets used there.O.k its a kennel club rule that no substance should be used etc etc but the original poster of this thread surely cannot believe that an inferior dog with a bit of chalk on it will beat a better dog who has no chalk on him. If that were to happen then I would say that the problem is the judge. This is dog showing, these are show dogs. Surely what should concern us more is that for the first time Whippet registrations are in the top twenty, if this breeding trend continues Whippets will go the same way as Afghans did in the 60s. People should be far more concerned about this rather than whether an exhibitor is chalking their dog, furthermore white on white does not change a colour.

 

[whippynit]

Although i dont have a strong opinion on this either way, ( I dont chalk myself BTW ), in fairness to the poster i think he/she maybe means if there are two dogs of equal merit (in the jugdes opinion) and the judge cannot make their mind up the more 'immaculaty'(sp) turned out dog may clinch it...so is it fair that the winning dog is turned out in a way which is against the rules? (IF chalking is classed as against the rules :wacko: ) Obviously no dog is going to win on the sparkliness of his coat alone. Well, he shouldnt anyway! :thumbsup

 

[patsy]

Well I seem to be guilty on all counts, a well known championship show judge,author of a whippet book and take great pride and have done for the last forty years of putting my whippets into the show ring in imaculate condition. I think that the kennel club were trying to clamp down on the colouring that was going on in quite a few breeds, and am sure they turn a blind eye to a bit of chalk on the feet, a breed like whippets it is all there for all to see there is nothing to hide.

Well said ukusa it is very alarming that we have moved into the top twenty registration wise and it should concern us all that care for the breed. We at Courthill have just had two champion bitches in season and they have not been mated because we are concerned about the amount of whippet puppies that are looking for homes.

Patsy

P.S. NOT GUILTY OF BEING AT A SHOW IN DECEMBER IT MUST HAVE BEEN THOSE OTHER TWO WELL KNOWN AUTHORS

 

[Happy Humber]

Chalk is used to clean white terrier coats as they are never bathed as this would soften the coat texture

 

[Sarsanet]

Chalk is used to clean white  terrier coats as they are never bathed as this would soften the coat texture

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I don't use chalk on my dogs because it leaves the coat dull & harsh - just right for terriers but not for my whippets. Here in Oz we have a fabulous, locally made, shampoo with whiteners in it which brings all coats (even black & especially white) up to a sparkly shine. I also feed a diet that improves the coat from the inside out. People constantly ask me what I put on their coats to get that bloom & shine. When I say nothing they don't believe me. Plush Puppy make a no water, spray on shampoo that you just rub with a towel which gets rid of grubby marks when you get to the show.

On a dull day I do admit to using a light spray shine on a silk scarf & wiping the dog over with it. If that makes me guilty of altering the coat texture then so be it but this is a dog show for heaven sake. I don't take my dog straight from running around in the back yard into a showring anymore than I present myself to the judge in jeans & runners.

Gail.

 

[seaspot_run]

Chalk is used to clean white  terrier coats as they are never bathed as this would soften the coat texture

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I don't use chalk on my dogs because it leaves the coat dull & harsh - just right for terriers but not for my whippets. Here in Oz we have a fabulous, locally made, shampoo with whiteners in it which brings all coats (even black & especially white) up to a sparkly shine. I also feed a diet that improves the coat from the inside out. People constantly ask me what I put on their coats to get that bloom & shine. When I say nothing they don't believe me. Plush Puppy make a no water, spray on shampoo that you just rub with a towel which gets rid of grubby marks when you get to the show.

On a dull day I do admit to using a light spray shine on a silk scarf & wiping the dog over with it. If that makes me guilty of altering the coat texture then so be it but this is a dog show for heaven sake. I don't take my dog straight from running around in the back yard into a showring anymore than I present myself to the judge in jeans & runners.

Gail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Plush Puppy products from Australia are sold at some US shows. They are good grooming products. I like their coat sheen spray, very much. In fact, my Whippets have nice coats for the most part, but my own hair can use some help and I have been known to use their products on myself and not the dogs. :lol: :b

 

[aslan]

Plush Puppy products from Australia are sold at some US shows.  I have been known to use their products on myself and not the dogs. :lol:   :b

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Not surprising considering Jon and Cheryl Le Court were hairdressers before they were show dog owners and grooming product producers.

 

[wilfred]

Perhaps this topic should be split, as it now deals with 2 important issues:

1) the question of breaking the rules re dog showing (products still being left in the coat before taking a dog in the ring etc); whether or not we agree on whether or not the practise should have a blind eye turned to it is interesting, but to leave products in dogs' coats still flouts KC rules. Possibly the rules should be changed, depending on a person's stance on the subject. I think we all took it as read at the start of the discussion that dogs should be taken into the ring in a spotlessly clean condition.

2) the very sad topic of the Whippet now being in the top 20 breeds registered has now been introduced.

 

[Mabelline]

Of course they may not take into account the fact that what has been altered for showing purposes may genetically reproduce itself when the dog is bred! 

Lanny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Do you mean the next generation may be born coated in talk? :lol:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Or even coated in CHALK (w00t) :teehee:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Wouldn't that lead to a dry birth? :- "

 

[dessie]

I can however see me having to use talc on the legs of my puppy Amos,he is the first of my boys that pee's up the back of his front legs, and if he does piddle up them before going into the ring, mopping them up with a tissue might not be enough.

drying them out properly with talc is surely more preferable than allowing a judge to get **** on their hands :x

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

You could always use wet wipes!! I've always got a pack of "Grubby Faces, Sticky Fingers" in my showbag!!!

 

[dragonfly]

Hello jthatton (Topic Starter)

Do you show whippets? I see you are new to this board, it would be nice if you introduced yourself. We really do like to know who we are chatting with.

Cathie

 

[jthatton]

Hello jthatton (Topic Starter)
Do you show whippets? I see you are new to this board, it would be nice if you introduced yourself. We really do  like to know who we are chatting with.

Cathie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Hi Cathie.

My name is James Hatton and and I grew up with working whippets and have friends who show various breeds. I have been following whippet showing and considered trying to show the breed but it seems adult discussion is not allowed and if one questions rule breaking it is not liked. The PMs I have received have put me off things a little I must say. And some people have warned me not to give my name...is this dog showing or the Mafia?

 

[Seraphina]

The mistake of the OP was to use the term "cheating" in the heading of his/her post. That got quite a few hackles up and is really not an issue. Definition of cheating, is doing something underhanded that gives a person unfair advantage. All show dogs are groomed before they are shown, some may need only quick sponge, while others need complicated procedures. When showing my white Borzoi i used to not only wash him before show, but also deeply condition his coat, and use products which supposedly enhanced the white - we lived on few acres and he would spend his time doing his best to destroy and discolour his coat. He would roll in black swamp or the deep red clay, both difficult to get out. I never used chalk and lost trust in the whitening products after one turned my dog rather green :lol: , which came out after about 10th bath, but left the coat harsh and dry

The only way I would see a problem with using chalk would be for a breed for which the standard calls for sparkling white coat and people are able to change naturally off-white dog into white. That would be cheating, because it would hide a fault.

 

[seaspot_run]

I kind of thought we'd addressed that, and moved on...

Using coat products to enhance, clean, or brighten what's already there is ok.

Using coat products or other substances or procedures (incl. surgical) to hide or cover up a fault under the breed standard is not ok.

This isn't very hard to see where the line gets drawn.

Chalking out a grass stain isn't cheating.

It's grooming.

 

[seaspot_run]

No substance which alters the natural colour, texture or body of the coat may be present in the dog's coat for any purpose at any time during the show.
Any other substance (other than water) which may be used in the preparation of a dog for exhibition must not be allowed to remain in the coat or on any other part of the dog at the time of exhibition.

:- "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Yeah, but I'm talking reality, here.

There's a set of shows here where the flies are AWFUL.

You get your dog stacked but flies keep lighting on it and it keeps trying to turn around and bite at the flies. So, both the owners AND the dogs drench themselves in bug spray to repel the flies.

It's a foreign substance in the coat which prepares the dog for exhibition, but come on....is a judge supposed to penalize that?

Literal interpretation, then yeah. It's cheating and unfair, no doubt, to those who didn't bring bug spray or have any friends who would lend them some.

I'm not a fan of lots of chalk, and I don't like to see a Whippet chalked heavily so that you can pat the dog and cloud rises into the air, but that's not really what's happening for the most part--the chalk IS brushed out, it does not alter the natural color (since the dog is white there to begin with), it does not alter the natural texture or body if it is brushed out, so how important is this? Just because you see an exhibitor apply chalk in the grooming area doesn't mean that the exhibitor hasn't brushed the dog out once the desired whitening and cleaning has been achieved. Whippets caked with chalk have wrong coat texture. It's a much worse problem in terriers than in our breed.

There, the harsher texture can be attained with product.

 

[Seraphina]

Anyway I do not think person would gain advantage by taking a heavily chalked up dog into a ring. Actually, I know that judges get rather annoyed if they get covered in white powder while going over a dog (w00t)

 

[seaspot_run]

Anyway I do not think person would gain advantage by taking a heavily chalked up dog into a ring.  Actually, I know that judges get rather annoyed if they get covered in white powder  while going over a dog  (w00t)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Absolutely!!

Here in the US, we penalize with our standard missing eyerim and nose pigment*, and pale nose pigment. When I judge, if I suspect incomplete eyerims are colored in, I brush my thumb over the eye and if black smears come off then I don't use that dog. If it looks like a pale nose has been blackened, then I don't use that dog. But it's different if you have a dog who has a very black nose and has scuffed it, maybe against a racing muzzle, or maybe by trying to bury something (food, diarreah) in a crate. If someone wants to dab a bit of coverup on a scab, I see that the same as I do a dog who appears to have had some pee stains from the morning walk "chalked out".

I just usually have bigger fish to fry as a judge than to worry about something like that. It may not HELP the dog, but I can't see penalizing it. The exhibitor no doubt feels more confident if they think they've groomed over the " ".

*I wish our standard's wording on pigment corresponded to that of the UK and FCI, but if you are judging you have to judge by the official standard in effect, not the standard you WISH was in effect.

 

[maggie217]

Hello jthatton (Topic Starter)
Do you show whippets? I see you are new to this board, it would be nice if you introduced yourself. We really do  like to know who we are chatting with.

Cathie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Hi Cathie.

My name is James Hatton and and I grew up with working whippets and have friends who show various breeds. I have been following whippet showing and considered trying to show the breed but it seems adult discussion is not allowed and if one questions rule breaking it is not liked. The PMs I have received have put me off things a little I must say. And some people have warned me not to give my name...is this dog showing or the Mafia?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Of course you are entitled to your opinion re: preparation of dogs for the showring. I am sorry if you now feel offended by the replies you have received. However you cannot be surprised if some of the people replying do not agree with you. You cannot make a statement about cheating, especially as you do not KNOW if chalk/talc used remained in the coat in the showring. If you are truly upset and really feel cheating is being carried on then you can take the correct course of action as Alayna outlined early in the postings. You appear now to be upset, and feel that there has not been an adult discussion. IMO there has been an adult discussion but I have not read anywhere in the debate where you have considered/discussed any other view but your own. You now appear to be offended because people did not all agree with you.

Pauline

 

[wild whippies]

My name is James Hatton and and I grew up with working whippets and have friends who show various breeds. I have been following whippet showing and considered trying to show the breed but it seems adult discussion is not allowed and if one questions rule breaking it is not liked. The PMs I have received have put me off things a little I must say. And some people have warned me not to give my name...is this dog showing or the Mafia?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Hiya James, welcome to K9. Personally I think you raised a valid question and to those outside of the show world it would be an easy perception to presume they are cheating, especially when KC rules are substantiating this.

I used to show various breeds of dogs as a child and my own opinion on it is dog showing is a beauty pageant. I wonder how effective breed standards are when so much emphasis is put on appearance rather than functionality.

I'm sorry to read you've been in receipt of what appears to be abusive PM's, all I would suggest is you forward these on to Admin - I for one find that kind of behaviour more despicable than some newbie asking a question regardless of how the question was asked! :angry:

 

[chelynnah]

Perhaps this topic should be split, as it now deals with 2 important issues:
1)  the question of breaking the rules re dog showing (products still being left in the coat before taking a dog in the ring etc); whether or not we agree on whether or not the practise should have a blind eye turned to it is interesting, but to leave products in dogs' coats still flouts KC rules.  Possibly the rules should be changed, depending on a person's stance on the subject.  I think we all took it as read at the start of the discussion that dogs should be taken into the ring in a spotlessly clean condition.

2)  the very sad topic of the Whippet now being in the top 20 breeds registered has now been introduced.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I have split the topic as suggested after finally having a chance to read it. Until I had a chance to read it in full I had made it invisible.

I think there is a lot of merit in the discussion, however I think it's been played out and all that's left really is personal insults so I'm locking the discussion. If people think they can 'play nice' and have something else they would like to add to the discussion that hasn't already been said please contact me privately via pm to disucss it, but really I think the topic has pretty much been done. The split topic can be found here:

http://www.k9community.co.uk/forums/index....showtopic=42357

Wendy