Crufts

[Jack-Russell-Lover]

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Hi all,
Hope this hasn't been discussed already, I didn't see a thread for it.
I love Crufts, I watch it every year and was so chuffed for the little Whippet that won. Such a good final 7 this year. I was just wondering what people's thoughts are about it? I think its a bit like marmite, you either love it or hate it! Thought we could get a little debate going.
Right at the end after the winner was announced, protesters ran into the arena :O

 

[Mad Murphy]

About 4 years ago I wrote this about my dogs because I really believe if you want a dog to boost your ego or your social standing, to impress the neighbours, to win prizes for you or make money for you, then you don't really need a dog, you need a therapist, because you have a problem with yourself that having a dog cannot fix.
Im not saying people shouldn't have pedigrees or that responsible breeders shouldnt breed. but..
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*Theres been a load of reports about crufts on the news and the net the last few days people taking one side or the other and being quite nasty about other peoples views so I thought I would just say ..

I look at my own 14 year old beagle Benny each morning and think OMG you are beautiful , you are strong , eager , alert slim and downright wonderful. The best beagle ever born.

I look at my old crossbreed Remy and think , you got the short straw boyo,,, a small head and broad shoulders, chicken stick thin legs and a constant sad look. You won't win any beauty shows unless the judges can look inside and see the kind, loving, shy, little dog who sticks to me like velcro. Who laid in front of his housemate after he was attacked and sheltered him from any other foe who might dare try it on.

A little dog who is scared of his own shadow but who let Oscar use him as a pillow and would front up to any dog who got too close when Oscar got frail.

I dont need anyone else to tell me my dogs are wonderful, I know they are. I dont need a rosette to tell me they are winners, they won my heart years ago.

But I also know that everyone who truely loves their pet thinks exactly the same about thier companion and I accept that without malice or jealousy.
I just think its a pity there aren't more who think that way.*

 

[JoanneF]

It's a difficult one. I can see both sides of the issue.

I think it is great that this year, none of the finalists were what you might call 'extreme' which is encouraging, but on the other hand it isn't Crufts or the Kennel Club that sets breed standards, it is the breed clubs themselves. Then again, the fact that none of the finalists looked like they had run headlong into a brick wall maybe gives a message to some breed clubs.

I didn't see it but I also heard about some dogs being anxious and overwhelmed and I don't like that either.

But on a positive note, things like Discover Dogs where members of the public are able to get lots of great information about different breeds, and the agility and obedience type competitions are great to watch - again with the caveat that the dog is enjoying the experience.

 

[Jack-Russell-Lover]

Love what you wrote @Mad Murphy
Absolutely, your own dog(s) are always winners in your eyes, and I believe that every dog is of course very special, because dogs are amazing!

I think I enjoy watching Crufts because of all the breeds you see in the ring, ones that you don't see everyday (or ever) because they're not the popular one (I think the fact that there are 'popular' breeds and breeds that are vulnerable because they're not featured in tv shows/films etc. is absolutely ridiculous btw) because there are some fabulous looking breeds out there that you just don't hear about or see. The amount of Poodle crosses and Shih Tzus etc. that I see in the grooming salon is ridiculous. That's why yes, @JoanneF, discover dogs is a really good idea to open people's eyes about what breeds are out there.
I was so happy that there were no Brachycephalic breeds in the final 7, I mean did you see that thing with no face running around in the toy group (Pekingese)? Well, hardly running, just shuffling because of it's ridiculously short legs.
It does annoy me when they're so picky about the way the dogs stand for the judging, constantly lifting their tails and making sure they're as high up in the air as possible (even when the dog is quite capable of holding it up just fine) and looking like they have major twitching issues with their hand because they're moving it about, teasing the dog with a treat to get their attention (even if they're looking alert already).

I can also see both sides.

 

[JudyN]

As usual with things that are supposed to be like Marmite - including Marmite - I'm on the fence. Crufts is my guilty pleasure because I love seeing all the beautiful dogs but cringe at the sight of the Pekes, pugs, GSDs and so on. And I hate the thought of all the dogs who are really not happy to be there.

Crufts does raise the profile of all the issues involved - without Crufts the general public wouldn't be at all informed about the physical issues in the GSDs or how we've turned the Pekes into - well goodness knows what, you could barely call them dogs any more And things are changing. Not anything like fast enough, but Crufts and the KC can put a lot of pressure on the breed clubs so there is some hope of progress.

I showed Jasper when he was younger, though lurcher showing is very different to pedigree. The pull of those rosettes was enticing, the validation that a lurcher expert also recognised my dog as being awesome and wonderful... I was gutted when it became clear that his personality wasn't right for showing or racing - which is simply wrong, because a rosette doesn't make him more gorgeous or faster, and it shouldn't even matter anyway. But the point is that I can imagine it being addictive, and we know only too well what terrible things people can do to fuel their addiction.

 

[arealhuman]

Hate it as posted elsewhere - an ego boost for the owners, a lot of dogs look like they don't want to be there. A modern day circus, and we all know how that "industry" went. I appreciate my view doesn't align with others, but it's just that, my view

 

[Mayblossom]

I’m not sure about Crufts , a lot of the dogs seem to have two or three interested parties in them, a bit like having shares in a racehorse! We used to show Old English sheepdogs many years ago but became very disillusioned when we were showing a 6 month old puppy who we knew wasn’t a real show dog, he didn’t enjoy it as he was very timid, only took him along as the breeder suggested it....he actually won the class ...found out later the judge was a very close friend of the breeder and he never should have won. We gave up showing, had the Old English clipped so they could enjoy going out without the worry of getting their coats damaged . Amazes me that so many competitors travel thousands of miles to show their dogs all for the chance of a rosette, in crates on planes, hundreds of miles by road ...wouldn’t fancy doing that at all .

 

[Biker John]

I like Crufts and enjoy either visiting or watching on TV. OK when there I do tend to only watch various Sight hounds, both those I know and love, Whippet (of course), Salukis and Deerhounds plus others I haven't seen before. And I always tour round Discover Dogs. This year I nearly teared up by fussing a Lancashire Heeler that was the spitting image of one my parents bred and I grew up with. As to the dogs not enjoying themselves, in general for a dog to do well at any show let alone a big one it has to be the type that loves it all.

 

[FrankieDoodle]

How inconsiderate, selfish and stupid of Peta.. Protesting the mistreatment of dogs, yet running out and scaring them! Thankfully it wasn't anything worse! Would have been 100%more effective had they protested outside.

 

[Violet Turner]

How inconsiderate, selfish and stupid of Peta.. Protesting the mistreatment of dogs, yet running out and scaring them! Thankfully it wasn't anything worse! Would have been 100%more effective had they protested outside.

I only just saw this...

 

[leashedForLife]

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I enjoy Crufts, i've paid for full-show video access B4, & it was terrific!

I have attended U-S shows in person, & like the UKC versions far-more than the AKC -
in the UKC, no pro-handlers are permitted; anyone handling a dog must be the owner, or co-owner.
In the AKC, judges spend too dam*ed much time looking at the human end of the leash; "if So-&-so is handling this dog, s/he's gotta be a contender..."
BS - anyone with sufficient $$$ to throw at the problem can get an AKC Ch on their dog by paying gazillions to someone to professionally groom, otherwise known as "sculpt" a decent dog out of a lump of furry clay, then they pay another someone to "special" their dog all over the country once they've met the basic # of points.

In the AKC, evening gowns on women & dress suits on men can be expected attire at high-prestige shows; designer clothing & shoes are common, even in local AKC-shows. // In the UKC, practicality rules; nobody gets extra points for Anna Karan hosiery, Jimmy Choo shoes, or a bespoke suit. U might see a 10-YO in shorts & sneakers showing their dog in the ring with adults in T-shirts, billed caps with seed-company logos, & sweat pants - nobody cares; THE DOG is what matters. U can show yer dog wearing a bowling-team shirt & sandals, calf-high socks & Bermuda shorts in a loud obnoxious plaid; if the dog is quality, s/he will be placed.

my experience of ARBA, the Am Rare Breeds Assoc, has been uneven -
i was stunned when a judge put up a horribly aggro Tibetan Mastiff for the purple rosette, one day in N.C.! - that dog had spent the entire show clear across a wide grass field from the roped ring, IN HIS CRATE - except for toilet breaks; there was a solid tract of woods behind his crate, & he was in deep shade all day, as it was about 85'F.
HE GROWLED to one volume or intensity ALL DAY, & erupted inside the crate like a k9 maniac any time a dog or a human went past the ring by so much as 5-ft, on "his" side - he must have been 250 to 300-ft away, & he'd roar, lunge, & hit the door so hard, he moved the crate across the grass under him!
He also GROWED AT THE JUDGE in the ring, when the man looked at him! - WTH, Tibbies are a no-touch breed, the handler was displaying his bite & showing his testes, & he's staring at the judge with a fixed, flat glare, & snarling at him! - he should have been barred, not given a bl**dy rosette.
On other occasions, i saw lovely dogs, great handlers, & excellent judging. :--\ I guess it depends.

I've never attended a Rarities show, nor a Canadian Kennel Club venue, so can't report my impressions.
- terry

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[Jack-Russell-Lover]

Omg @leashedForLife that is awful!!

I gues I don't really understand either how the hell the judge chooses a winner out of several dogs of different breeds, like I know its whichever is the best example of its breed blah blah. But surely you are more inclined to go for your favorite breeds sometimes? Even if they aren't necessarily perfect for their breed??
It's like when I groom a dog like a Shih Tzu for example, I'm not a fan of them and I have to ask my boss if they look alright when I'm finished because I just can't see the appeal. I finish grooming one and I think, how odd do you look. However, if I groom a spaniel, they always look stunning to me!

 

[leashedForLife]

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breed judges are human, like anyone else - they can be biased; one judge gave a very poor specimen the 1st for the sentimental reason that the dog looked just like his own 1st-ever dog of that breed, with the same faults.
That may be sweet - but it's completely unethical.

It's also true that the breed standard can be interpreted in many breeds - it's not a series of measurements with a caliper; there are varying types in many breeds, & some judges LIKE one type rather than another, even if the dog of the 'other' type is a better specimen, in a given class of one breed.
Owners & especially pro-handlers will do their dam*edest to find out which judges like which type of their breed - then register for shows accordingly, showing under judges who like for instance a slightly-shorter back & 'squarer' frame on a GSD rather than a long-backed dog with a low-set tail.

Judges who do BiGroup or BiShow had better not choose their own "favorite" breed if other dogs of other breeds are better specimens, at that particular show! - they won't get repeat bookings, if they put up a lower-quality personal favorite over a high-quality specimen of a breed they're not keen on.

Personally, i really dislike Bedlington Terriers - to me, they don't "resemble lambs", they look like aliens, & their strong tendency to dog-aggression only makes the physical package uglier, to my eyes. :shrug: EVERY ONE of the handlers who showed Bedlingtons at the UKC Centennial show carried their dogs in their arms, to & from the ring - never setting them down, lest their dog start a fight or launch themselves at an innocent passing dog, not just in the crowded ring-aisles, where abrupt face-to-face encounters might understandably make dogs cranky, but anywhere on the fairgrounds.
My "dog-aggressive" Akita was, at 72#, walking on her own 4 feet, thanks very much, & never turned a hair or a lip at any dog the entire 4-days. I'd have been shocked if she had!

- terry
.

 

[Biker John]

But surely you are more inclined to go for your favorite breeds sometimes? Even if they aren't necessarily perfect for their breed?

In my oppinion after watching many shows, it can be one of two outcomes, sometimes a judge knows more about one breed and hence notices the slightest fault, (using fault as a general term), and therefore does not place it. An other judge can tend to favour their breed. However I do think in general most judges do give an honest and fair oppinion.

 

[Jack-Russell-Lover]

.

breed judges are human, like anyone else - they can be biased; one judge gave a very poor specimen the 1st for the sentimental reason that the dog looked just like his own 1st-ever dog of that breed, with the same faults.
That may be sweet - but it's completely unethical.

It's also true that the breed standard can be interpreted in many breeds - it's not a series of measurements with a caliper; there are varying types in many breeds, & some judges LIKE one type rather than another, even if the dog of the 'other' type is a better specimen, in a given class of one breed.
Owners & especially pro-handlers will do their dam*edest to find out which judges like which type of their breed - then register for shows accordingly, showing under judges who like for instance a slightly-shorter back & 'squarer' frame on a GSD rather than a long-backed dog with a low-set tail.

Judges who do BiGroup or BiShow had better not choose their own "favorite" breed if other dogs of other breeds are better specimens, at that particular show! - they won't get repeat bookings, if they put up a lower-quality personal favorite over a high-quality specimen of a breed they're not keen on.

Personally, i really dislike Bedlington Terriers - to me, they don't "resemble lambs", they look like aliens, & their strong tendency to dog-aggression only makes the physical package uglier, to my eyes. :shrug: EVERY ONE of the handlers who showed Bedlingtons at the UKC Centennial show carried their dogs in their arms, to & from the ring - never setting them down, lest their dog start a fight or launch themselves at an innocent passing dog, not just in the crowded ring-aisles, where abrupt face-to-face encounters might understandably make dogs cranky, but anywhere on the fairgrounds.
My "dog-aggressive" Akita was, at 72#, walking on her own 4 feet, thanks very much, & never turned a hair or a lip at any dog the entire 4-days. I'd have been shocked if she had!

- terry
.

That is so bad, to choose a breed because it looks like one you've had!
I agree with you about Bedlingtons, very odd looking!
Yeah I suppose they have to be unbiased but occasionally they must make an unfair judgement based on favoritism.

 

[leashedForLife]

That is so bad, to choose a breed because it looks like one you've had! // I agree with you about Bedlingtons, very odd looking!

Yeah I suppose [judges] have to be unbiased, but occasionally they must make an unfair judgement based on favoritism.

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it wasn't a "breed" he chose - it was a single breed entry, all females; he chose a particular bitch, who just happened to have exactly the same flaws as his own childhood dog. The bitch he put up as 1st was actually the poorest specimen in the entire entry. Thank heaven, the win was a one-off, or a F with poor structure & a sway back might have become a breed-champion, & been bred repeatedly, to whelp pups with her own faults, to pass on!

the most-common favoritism shown by judges isn't IME in the dogs they choose so much as the dogs they choose BECAUSE OF THE HANDLER, in the AKC - certain handlers are only a few steps below God, in the dog-fancy, & dogs exhibited by them "get points" merely for being on So-&-so's leash.
A mediocre dog should never be put up b/c a well-known pro is handling her or him.

I've also seen outrageous coloring jobs done on dogs - one handler was coloring a Rough Collie at the Seagull Cluster in Va Beach, & i went directly to the AKC representative to tell him about it; she was using FIVE COLORS OF CHALK on a tricolored male, everything from black to white, with raw sienna, auburn, & clay-yellow in between.
He dismissed me casually, saying many exhibitors "use chalk to whiten the dog's feet". // WTH?!... i'd just told him she was using BLACK chalk to color HIS FACE. The eejit never even left the booth to go see for himself.

I saw her later in the ring, LOL - across the rear of her black slacks were multiple hand-prints in yellow, brown, red, & white, where she'd dusted her hands after chalking him. Her butt looked like a limited-spectrum rainbow - i wish cell-phones had been invented then, i'd have FRAMED that photo. I'd also have sent a copy to the AKC.

- terry
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[FrankieDoodle]

Omg @leashedForLife that is awful!!

I gues I don't really understand either how the hell the judge chooses a winner out of several dogs of different breeds, like I know its whichever is the best example of its breed blah blah. But surely you are more inclined to go for your favorite breeds sometimes? Even if they aren't necessarily perfect for their breed??
It's like when I groom a dog like a Shih Tzu for example, I'm not a fan of them and I have to ask my boss if they look alright when I'm finished because I just can't see the appeal. I finish grooming one and I think, how odd do you look. However, if I groom a spaniel, they always look stunning to me!

If it was me I would have picked the Newfoundland or Akita, but I do lean more towards big dogs lol. Lol I have a spaniel cross that's as mad as box of frogs that you're welcome to groom ha! Had his bath yesterday that was a fiasco lol