And there could be good reasons to remove it too. Like the owner moving abroad (I'm thinking of the not for export endorsement here) or the show puppy that went as a pet and then blossoms into a spectacular specimen of the breed.
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Cryptorchids (talk-in)
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Maybe from a racing point of view, if a solution could not be found to plug the loop hole these dogs would in the end never have a passport.The thing is we have to start somewhere and it would be up to all club members where it ends in the future. It would make sense that people planning to have a litter of pups this year vet the sire properly now so that it illiminates heart ache now.
>That would stop the owner from racing the dog but still wouldn't stop them removing the endorsement and using the dog at stud after the dog had finished racing due to age or injury. Or even part way through the year and then having it put back on again after the puppies were registered with the Kennel Club.
IMO any resulting puppies and their offspring would not have acceptable 5 gen pedigree's to The Whippet Club or the WCRA so those pups would not be able to get a passport. Further I suspect that both the stud dog owner and the bitch owner would be in breach of The Whippet Club/WCRA rules and thus be dealt with as having broken them.
It is after all ONLY the racing dogs that this concerns. No one is concerned about the whippets bred to course or work.
IMO any resulting puppies and their offspring would not have acceptable 5 gen pedigree's to The Whippet Club or the WCRA so those pups would not be able to get a passport. Further I suspect that both the stud dog owner and the bitch owner would be in breach of The Whippet Club/WCRA rules and thus be dealt with as having broken them.
It is after all ONLY the racing dogs that this concerns. No one is concerned about the whippets bred to course or work.
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How true!conway said:
With pedigree cats: stud cats have a certificate from the vet, at the registration office, saying they have two of the correct texture,placement etc.
Kittens cannot be registered if their sire does not have one of these chits.
Why doesn`t the kennel club start doing that in 2008?
Eventually, cryptorchidism will be bred out of whippets whether they race or show.
People who want to win no matter what can race non-peds!
Gavin
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Coursing is illegal, working dogs have no proffesional regulating body, I assume that is the reason why no-one from the WCRA is concerned about them.
Very true Gavin, the issue is a moral one, and hopeful, breeders will use their discretion in order to improve the breed, even if it means a few generations of slightly slower dogs? We'll see. 8)
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That's true, they could be the way round it. In fact they need only enter on the passport that the dog was cryptorchid (and therefore its progeny wouldn't have an acceptable pedigree) and then never bother with the neuter/ endorsement rule at all. They've already got the acceptable pedigree rule in place.BeeJay said:
The Whippet club have only got a say over their members, dogs that enter their own shows, dogs that apply for a WCRA passport and the Obedience section so I don't think there's anything they could ever do about working dogs anyway. I don't think its a case of not being concerned, its just that, like Joanna said, they have no control over whippets outside their jurisdiction.
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I personally feel that us racers are being victimised .......The speech had many flaws, and certainly not very in depth, with out any comparisons or correctly researched ......Out of the 294 pass-ported dogs in 6 years .....50 were cryptorchid or monorchid and 2 had show breeding back ground ......Well I'm sorry, considering how many show breds that would have been pass-ported in that time (a very, VERY few) shouldn't this be worrying for show people ??? .......We get told show breeders would be horrified at the thought of using a cryptorchid dog, yet they STILL have this problem, now surely they would be nearly free from this problem by now ????? ......30 years ago its been noted as a breed thing, and its still in the show lines .......Then we get told that our gene pool is too small ........and that we should go out to SHOW lines .......Well how funny this would be, we have continental show lines out there that the WCRA wouldn't let us passport :- " ......There's a line from France who would be a no no and hes a show champion (w00t) .......To further the gene pool we could go out to coursing lines, but again there's a very well known line producing dogs with 1 retained testicle and even dogs with 2 retained testicles ........Now really the Whippet Club has to do a data base of these dogs across the board, not just the racers .....There are some AI show lines and AI show stud dogs still being used as their illnesses are steroid controllable ........and we get called irresponsible breeders .......As many of us know breeding is a mine field, but with show lines we can't use due to not being pass portable, or illness, then the coursing lines that also have AI or testicle faults as well ......tell me whats worse, I know what I'd go for EVERY time.........but then stupid me we also got told that ONLY 3% of AI Whippets actually died from their illness, but rather conveniently one bother to tell us the % of how many had AI controlled illnesses that never kill them, but just gives them a poorer quality of life 
.......I do believe in trying to indicate cryptorchid dog, but a Whippets a Whippet what ever its breeding and ALL lines, type etc ...will have to be governed to help this beautiful breed ......just don't make us racers out to be the irresponsible breeders !!!!!!! ......But this is of course all of my own personal opinion :- "
.......I do believe in trying to indicate cryptorchid dog, but a Whippets a Whippet what ever its breeding and ALL lines, type etc ...will have to be governed to help this beautiful breed ......just don't make us racers out to be the irresponsible breeders !!!!!!! ......But this is of course all of my own personal opinion :- "
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It's not just down to the Whippet club and WCRA, it's down to all clubs to encourage their members to follow the rules we are given. Anyone thinking they can get around the rules should expect to accept the consequences of their actions. Even if that means they can no longer race. We should enjoy the dogs we have and make every effort not to spoil the breed for future racers
I've been reading this thread with great interest as the owner of a cryptorchid dog.He is a handsome well proportioned dog in my opinion, and I have had enquiries about using him at stud, which I politely declined explaining the reason why.There is no way that I would use him even though my vet has told me that due to the position of his testicles he would be fertile.I heard mentioned that all cryptorchids should be castrated, and so asked the opinion of the greyhound vet that I use,he advised against this until the dog has finished racing suggesting five years old as the time to do this.In his opinion the dog will not perform as well after castration.I'm happier now as enforced castration seems to be off the agenda.sue greenwood said:
There are some very sensible and valid points within this thread, but if people refused to use a cryptorchid dog as a matter of common sense, and for that matter seriously considered the use of monorchids then the fault should decline.
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I think you have made a responsible decision, and hopefully with the increased availability of information on the subject, the whippet racing fraternity will be able to make more informed decisions within their breeding programmes.longdog said:
>The Whippet club have only got a say over their members, dogs that enter their own shows, dogs that apply for a WCRA passport and the Obedience section so I don't think there's anything they could ever do about working dogs anyway. I don't think its a case of not being concerned, its just that, like Joanna said, they have no control over whippets outside their jurisdiction.
There are members of The Whippet Club who course or sorry used to course of course. Maybe I should have added lure coursing at the beginning. I am talking about the bloodlines when I talk of coursing and working dogs. I haven't got used to the idea that anyone actually breeds dogs to lure course. :- " Those coursing bloodlines are still around today. And as I was approached about using one of my dogs only the other day I am well aware that the owners of such bitches still refer to them as coursing dogs and may well want to use a racing bred dog on them. I was meaning a type of whippet rather than a job.
At the meeting on Saturday we were told repeatedly that 1) it was not a problem in the show lines it so rarely happened amongst show bred stock :- " therefore not of concern 2) that there was nowt that they could do about the rest of the whippet population. The representatives of The Whippet Club who were there at no time showed any concern whatsoever about the rest of the breed. Let us NOT forget that it is The Whippet Club who is going to bring this in NOT the WCRA.
I'm afraid I didn't read Joanna's post so I can't comment upon it.
There are members of The Whippet Club who course or sorry used to course of course.
Maybe I should have added lure coursing at the beginning. I am talking about the bloodlines when I talk of coursing and working dogs. I haven't got used to the idea that anyone actually breeds dogs to lure course. :- " Those coursing bloodlines are still around today. And as I was approached about using one of my dogs only the other day I am well aware that the owners of such bitches still refer to them as coursing dogs and may well want to use a racing bred dog on them. I was meaning a type of whippet rather than a job.At the meeting on Saturday we were told repeatedly that 1) it was not a problem in the show lines it so rarely happened amongst show bred stock :- " therefore not of concern 2) that there was nowt that they could do about the rest of the whippet population. The representatives of The Whippet Club who were there at no time showed any concern whatsoever about the rest of the breed. Let us NOT forget that it is The Whippet Club who is going to bring this in NOT the WCRA.
I'm afraid I didn't read Joanna's post so I can't comment upon it.
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What are you afraid of?
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Judy said:
Yes me as well :blink: :- " (w00t) :thumbsup:
>Are you saying Sue that you won't allow cryptorchid unpassported dogs to race at The Northern?
I didn't mean that quite as it sounds. I was wondering after your other post about not allowing cryptorchid dogs passports at all because of the loopholes. (That was my interpretation of what you were saying and could well be wrong).
If someone doesn't intend to passport their dogs to run in opens is it your viewpoint that the same restrictions should apply to non passported club raced dogs.
I didn't mean that quite as it sounds. I was wondering after your other post about not allowing cryptorchid dogs passports at all because of the loopholes. (That was my interpretation of what you were saying and could well be wrong).
If someone doesn't intend to passport their dogs to run in opens is it your viewpoint that the same restrictions should apply to non passported club raced dogs.
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As all racing stock at some point originates from show stock then as it was stated that the condition was hereditory did it not come from the show breeding.
I know a show dog that was very very well used (he had 2 testicles) but produced a lot of pups with 1 but he was still well used as he produced a lot of show winners?.
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Years ago I mated my show bitch to a show dog, there was no sign of cryptorchism on either side, but they together produced two dogs, one with one testicle descended, and one without either - of course neither was used at stud - and why would anyone in showing use an unentire male? :wacko: No matter how good a specimen a dog was, I can't imagine any show person using it. Undescended testicles is considered a fault, so of course show people wouldn't want to breed a fault on. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of racing people
I don't doubt there are cryptorchids in show breeding, but they are not purposely bred on. I have no doubt in my mind that it's more prevalent in racing bred dogs. Good on the WCRA for taking steps to prevent it.
I don't doubt there are cryptorchids in show breeding, but they are not purposely bred on. I have no doubt in my mind that it's more prevalent in racing bred dogs. Good on the WCRA for taking steps to prevent it.
Well said Longdog! Unfortunately though, there are people in racing who breed for speed without the thought for the health of the breed in the future.
agree with you June,June Jonigk said:Years ago I mated my show bitch to a show dog, there was no sign of cryptorchism on either side, but they together produced two dogs, one with one testicle descended, and one without either - of course neither was used at stud - and why would anyone in showing use an unentire male? :wacko: No matter how good a specimen a dog was, I can't imagine any show person using it. Undescended testicles is considered a fault, so of course show people wouldn't want to breed a fault on. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of racing people
I don't doubt there are cryptorchids in show breeding, but they are not purposely bred on. I have no doubt in my mind that it's more prevalent in racing bred dogs. Good on the WCRA for taking steps to prevent it.
Well said Longdog! Unfortunately though, there are people in racing who breed for speed without the thought for the health of the breed in the future.
if 2 dogs produce one dog with no testicals, one dog with only one testical and a bitch then ALL them dogs will be carriers of this gene and should not be allowed to breed in the future, and repeat mating of this mother and father SHOULD NOT be used either!!
has the KC/whippet club thought about the bitches (litter sisters/mothers) to these mono/crypto dogs aswell? as they are faulty gene carriers too, it's not just the studs used.
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