Curious

[*Lesley*]

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What point are you trying to make exactley and why? do you want us to say that its not possible for a non working bred dog to hunt/work as well as a working bred dog?

No matter what scientific facts there are all dogs are individual irrelevent of breeding, even with concentrated traits bred into a dog does not gaurantee the same in the offspring it may give a higher chance but not always, also much depends on nuture.

I have 2 working bred dogs and 2 show bred they will all hunt, they will all race and they will all course and I'm sure if I had a mind to they would all show because I have allowed them to do all this.

So I don't think anyone other than you is trying to say one type of breeding is superior to another, you will never get everyone to agree with you on here because they don't so it's pointless trying :thumbsup:

 

[Glen Loth]

I don,t "expect" anyone to "agree".

I feel I have expressed my opinion and will happily leave it there.

There was a fine dogman here who once completed a three sheep trial with a poodle.

Strangely, most who wish to compete successfully in that field

still source their trial dogs from proven working collie/kelpie lines,

go the poodles, :- "

cheers

 

[Joanna]

To insist that a pure show bred whip is likely to carry the same degree of prey drive and hunting instict of a whip from a blood that has focused on those traits for generations is not reasonable, or logical, or indeed supportable

I think this is the remark which really gets me. It demonstrates that you are possibly lacking in experience with any other area of whippets than the small field of Laguna and Mike Brown's breeding. If you had conducted a study with a broad spectrum of dogs from puppies to base your views on, I would gladly listen to what you had to say. For example, the only way to "supportable" evidence as opposed to anecdotal evidence is to conduct a trial. You would need to take a sample of puppies bred to race, show and working whippets and bring them up on the same diet, training and life-style to establish if your view is correct. I have never heard of such a study being carried out, so will therfore maintain my opinion that prey drive is instinctive and can be nurtured in all whippets. Some may have a stronger drive than others, but it will not be limited to the breeding of one or two kennels!

 

[Strike Whippets]

LOL ....Yes go the Poodle ......My working bred Border Collie flushes, races and lure courses, but then she's always thought she was a Whippet :lol:

 

[June Jonigk]

To insist that a pure show bred whip is likely to carry the same degree of prey drive and hunting instict of a whip from a blood that has focused on those traits for generations is not reasonable, or logical, or indeed supportable

I think this is the remark which really gets me. It demonstrates that you are possibly lacking in experience with any other area of whippets than the small field of Laguna and Mike Brown's breeding. If you had conducted a study with a broad spectrum of dogs from puppies to base your views on, I would gladly listen to what you had to say. For example, the only way to "supportable" evidence as opposed to anecdotal evidence is to conduct a trial. You would need to take a sample of puppies bred to race, show and working whippets and bring them up on the same diet, training and life-style to establish if your view is correct. I have never heard of such a study being carried out, so will therfore maintain my opinion that prey drive is instinctive and can be nurtured in all whippets. Some may have a stronger drive than others, but it will not be limited to the breeding of one or two kennels!

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Couldn't have put it better myself Jo :thumbsup:

I'm just wondering what Glen's comment about getting a black pup from 2 fawn parents had to do with anything. Obviously no you can't, but what has that to do with hunting instincts????? :- " Maybe he's suggesting that not only does the dog have to be bred from working parents to be able to chase prey, that it also has to be black too

 

[quintessence]

I've been thinking about this and want to tell you about 'Shot'. Before and during the war my dad had a gundog kennel, mainly pointers but a few spaniels. Shot was a pointer dog. All the dogs lived in kennels except for Shot who lived in the kitchen. Every night my grandma would open the door and Shot would go off hunting and every night he came back with a rabbit. What made him such a good hunter, during the day he was 'shot over', he never once tried to catch game, that wasn't his job, however at night he knew he was allowed to go off hunting. My dad said it was because he was give an opportunity that none of the others were, they were locked up in the kennels. How many dogs have ever been given the chance to go out on the Lancashire moors at night and hunt alone.

He was the perfect dog, on the night before he died he ripped his armchair to pieces, my grandma used to say that he knew he was near the end and no-one would ever take his place, and in my dad's eyes they didn't.

He was a true dual purpose dog, he had 49 Best In Show Awards, and worked during the day.

Jenny

 

[posh totty]

I've been thinking about this and want to tell you about 'Shot'.  Before and during the war my dad had a gundog kennel, mainly pointers but a few spaniels.  All the dogs lived in kennels except for Shot who lived in the kitchen.  Every night my grandma would open the door and Shot would go off hunting and every night he came back with a rabbit. What made him such a good hunter, during the day he was 'shot over', he never once tried to catch game, that wasn't his job, however at night he knew he was allowed to go off hunting.  My dad said it was because he was give an opportunity that none of the others were, they were locked up in the kennels.  How many dogs have ever been given the chance to go out on the Lancashire moors at night and hunt alone. 
He was the perfect dog, on the night before he died he ripped his armchair to pieces, my grandma used to say that he knew he was near the end and no-one would ever take his place, and in my dad's eyes they didn't.

He was a true dual purpose dog, he had 49 Best In Show Awards, and worked during the day.

Jenny

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wow , he sounds quite a dog and a larger than life character :thumbsup: amazing record!!!

 

[beaker]

i got both of my first two whippets when they were already adults,

the first a purely working bred dog bought direct from probably the most well known of working lines, he was bought as a working dog, raised as a working dog and trained as working dog by an experienced, professional working man.

the dog was useless at his job, never managed more than 4 rabbits in a full days hunting, was entirely gutless when faced with any challenge, would mark only when it suited him and was only 50% right on the ones he did mark, he wouldn't even go out if it was raining after 2 years of trying the man gave up and the dog came to me.

my second was an entirely show bred bitch who came to me at a year old after her owner died, in her first year of life she'd been barely socialised or exercised, had no chase training whatsoever and had never seen a rabbit in her life, she is the most determined and focused huntress you could ever meet with seemingly endless stamina, at nearly 9 years old she could still easily do more than the first dog could when he was in his prime.

so using the theory that you only get hightened hunting instincts when you selectively breed for them, should the people who have working decendant of these two dogs attribute their own dogs talents and instincts to the working blood or the showing blood that courses through their system???

BTW after seeing my show girl the working dogs original owner bought a dog from similar lines to her and has been more than happy :thumbsup:

 

[Judy]

There must be a genetic component to prey drive though, just as there is with physical ability. Different breeds have been developed to utilise and refine different instincts. Sight hounds have more instinct to hunt by sight than scent hounds or a Toy breed for instance, and Collies have been bred to refine their herding instinct. Others have a greater guarding instinct.

Behaviourists reckon that 30% of temperament is inherited and the rest learnt. I would have said that prey drive has something to do with temperament so yes all whippets should have prey drive but some might have more than others and that might be due to an inherited factor. If it is, then some lines may well have it bred into them more than others.

And yes, I also agree that a lot of it will also have to do with opportunity and learning but some dogs are going to learn more easily than others, partly because of opportunity but partly because of temperament or instinct.

I would still buy a show bred dog to show with, a working bred dog to work with and a racing bred dog to race with. Mostly because of physical ability to do those things but also because of a certain willingness to do those things.

Not to say they can't cross over into other disciplines because clearly they can and often very successfully but to my mind if the best dogs have been bred from then they will probably also have had the right temperament for the job which is at least partly inherited.

So apart from physical ability, is it temperament or instinct that makes one dog better than another. Can you entirely separate the two? Whichever, I think there is surely a genetic element to it.

 

[June Jonigk]

There must be a genetic component to prey drive though, just as there is with physical ability. Different breeds have been developed to utilise and refine different instincts. Sight hounds have more instinct to hunt by sight than scent hounds or a Toy breed for instance, and Collies have been bred to refine their herding instinct. Others have a greater guarding instinct.
Behaviourists reckon that 30% of temperament is inherited and the rest learnt. I would have said that prey drive has something to do with temperament so yes all whippets should have prey drive but some might have more than others and that might be due to an inherited factor. If it is, then some lines may well have it bred into them more than others.

And yes, I also agree that a lot of it will also have to do with opportunity and learning but some dogs are going to learn more easily than others, partly because of opportunity but partly because of temperament or instinct.

I would still buy a show bred dog to show with, a working bred dog to work with and a racing bred dog to race with. Mostly because of physical ability to do those things but also because of a certain willingness to do those things.

Not to say they can't cross over into other disciplines because clearly they can and often very successfully but to my mind if the best dogs have been bred from then they will probably also have had the right temperament for the job which is at least partly inherited.

So apart from physical ability, is it temperament or instinct that makes one dog better than another. Can you entirely separate the two? Whichever, I think there is surely a genetic element to it.

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That makes perfect sense Judy, and the reason that us racers would always source pups from racing lines - but the original starter of this thread was suggesting that show bred whippets have no hunting instinct or prey drive, and me being me, I had to come back and support them.

No one has rubbished working dogs, so why anyone would want to rubbish other breeding, but then go on to say that if you haven't got a dog from working lines it won't have prey drive or hunting instinct is beyond me :wacko: It's probably the same as us saying that a working dog wouldn't know how to come out of a trap (w00t) which we would never say o :teehee:

 

[Judy]

Oh I see. :unsure: I thought it was about the degree of prey drive different lines might have ie some have less than others, not that some don't have any. I think they all have it to some degree or other whatever their breeding.

 

[CHRIS DOYLE]

Prey drive. Oh dear me :blink: My first 2 whippets(still got them) Tilley and Moss. If you looked at their pedigrees....... bred for nothing, no SS no Laguna or any of the other lines that so called experts extol the virtues of. They have prey drive( prey drive (w00t) ) can't help laughing at that. Rabbit runs dog sees dog chases. Prey drive. QED .Tilley takes rats for fun she smells them, grabs them, kills them. Prey drive. They coursed hare with the same drive. This drive is common to the breed. We don't need to talk about it with a frown on our faces, trying to make it something it isn't. It is not a science. Lighten upyou so called experts and arm chair geneticists just enjoy the dogs irrespective of the discipline you favour.

 

[Glen Loth]

This is what I said

"To insist that a pure show bred whip is likely to carry the same degree of prey drive and hunting instict of a whip from a blood that has focused on those traits for generations is not reasonable, or logical, or indeed supportable"

not this

-" but the original starter of this thread was suggesting that show bred whippets have no hunting instinct or prey drive, and me being me, I had to come back and support them. "

I would prefer not to be misquoted

this was in response to a deleted post which claimed ALL whippets had the same instincts , which would seem to be a strong opinion with a complete disregard for (normally) accepted breeding practises,

cheers

 

[Judy]

OK so you're saying they all have prey drive but some more than others and that breeding counts, yes?

If I've understood you properly then I would go with that, with the added proviso that learning, experience and opportunity can be more important than inheritance presuming that physical ability is the same.

Sorry Lampy, I know what your saying but it is a discussion board :thumbsup:

 

[larruu]

REALLY MUST TELL MY TWO SHOW BREDS THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE A LESSER PREY DRIVE IT WOULD MAKE THINGS SO MUCH MORE RELAXING AT LURECOURSING AND RACING . THE ROE AND HARE AROUND HERE WOULD BE

HAPPIER TOO. WHIPPETS AS A DEFINED BREED HAVE BEEN ABOUT JUST OVER A HUNDRED YEARS AND WHILST THAT LENGTH OF TIME HAS PRODUCED MANY GENERATIONS THE ACORN IS STILL NEAR ENOUGH TO THE TREE FOR SUCH

AN INSTINCT TO REMAIN IN ALL WHIPPETS. MENTAL ATTITUDE , PHYSICAL ABILITY AND TRAINING - ALL FASHION WHAT A DOG WILL BE

 

[June Jonigk]

REALLY MUST TELL MY TWO SHOW BREDS THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE A LESSER PREY DRIVE IT WOULD MAKE THINGS SO MUCH MORE RELAXING AT LURECOURSING AND RACING . THE ROE AND HARE AROUND HERE WOULD BE HAPPIER TOO. WHIPPETS AS A DEFINED BREED HAVE BEEN ABOUT JUST OVER A HUNDRED YEARS AND WHILST THAT LENGTH OF TIME  HAS PRODUCED MANY GENERATIONS THE ACORN IS STILL NEAR ENOUGH TO THE TREE FOR SUCH

AN INSTINCT TO REMAIN IN ALL WHIPPETS. MENTAL ATTITUDE , PHYSICAL ABILITY AND TRAINING - ALL FASHION WHAT A DOG WILL BE

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Hurray - some sense :thumbsup: :cheers:

 

[rustic]

I don,t "expect" anyone to "agree".
  I feel I have expressed my opinion and will happily leave it there.

  There was a fine dogman here who once completed a three sheep trial with a poodle.

    Strangely, most who wish to compete successfully in that field

    still source their trial dogs from proven working collie/kelpie lines,

      go the poodles, :- "

        cheers

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ever had the feeling you are being ganged up on glen mate,and how dare you sign off with cheers you really have put a few noses out of joint

cheers

 

[shameless52]

personally I think GL is right, although there always will be the exception to the rule, yes I have a show bred whippet but I wont be as full on as I have in the past years, but nowadays you see show lines of springers and working lines of them they are even starting to look different as are labs and perform totally different, and look at collies, heres a funny one farmers steer totally clear of obedience lines, why? Because they cant think for themselves.

Also most of the working strains end up far hardier and much more tenacious and more able to cope with problem solving(and I dont mean ahhh isnt that cute it can open the kitchen unit door), also isnt a working dog(as in fieldsports) far happier getting out there being a dog, I will give you an example, I have been around friends and when the dogs think they are being taken for a walk they get very excited, but when you are round a working dog mans and the lead comes out they get up nonchantly to be taken for a walk as if to say oh well, but get the lamp out say then its like a rocket has been put up their arse.

Lastly for what my opinion is worth, if its a waste of time breeding for working traits because its not needed, then surely every time you mate 2 whippets together from around the corner it will produce show champs

 

[June Jonigk]

It makes sense to breed from dogs who do what you want them to do, but it was just the narrow minded views of Glen's that anything other than a working bred whippet cannot and will not have the same prey drive or hunting instinct.

He then said everyone was insulting someone's lifetime of breeding - which no one has. He can change his words as much as he likes, but he is arguing against the fact that I said all whippets have hunting instinct - they are sight hounds, and driven by the need to chase and kill. I believe that any whippet born in the wild who was hungry enough would chase to kill. It may be the case that you get a whippet who is losing it's need to kill, because it gets it's meals served up, and has no need to hunt. A show whippet for instance may have been brought up to stand on a table, and behave itself because it has to in the ring - but I personally believe that any whippet pup brought up in the necessary way will have hunting instinct, albeit to differing degrees, as does any working whippet 8)

No one is denying that you need to breed good specimens of whatever they excel at, but Glen made the sweeping statement that a show dog would never have the same hunting instinct or prey drive as a working whippet bred by xxxxxx

Many people have come back to say their show breds are very prey driven - this negates his statement.

I have said my bit, and I don't for one minute think I will change Glen's views, no more than he will change mine - so this thread is not worthy of any more of my time. I have a whippet to train :- " :cheers: CHEERS

 

[urchin]

I think that's a problem when a thread has been pruned like this one has: someone comes on here making a whole load of sweeping statements and accusing anyone who disagrees with him as throwing insults at his preferred breeder ..... so people join the thread and pretty politely say 'i don't believe that's the case, see I have this show bred dog here who do does all the things you're saying he can't'

then the more outrageous things said by the original poster are removed and all that's left is our replies!

So, those late comers to the thread, don't believe for one minute that the stronger of our replies are actually to the points you can see before you, nor that anyone is being ganged up on!