Desex & age of pet - why do shelters neuter pups?

[JudyN]

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Might try this with other kids

In my experience, neutering males can make them calmer, a little less full on and less 'angry young man'. And this was even the case with an 8-year-old beardie I know. And a calmer dog will be easier to train and more likely to be compliant.

Also, some unneutered males have a hard time because so many other dogs hate them with a vengeance. Yes, it should be the responsibility of the other person to control their dog and not let it attack or bully the unneutered dog, but not many people would always keep their usually friendly dog on lead the whole time just because of the one-in-a-hundred dog who happens to be entire.

But IMO we shouldn't be removing parts of dogs that are a bit part of who they are just for our own convenience - otherwise we'd be removing their teeth, and cats' claws. When adolescent, it's normal for dogs to be challenging, just like humans, and we should regard it as a phase of development just like puppies weeing on the carpet. And I don't think it's that hard for a person with an in-season dog on lead to discourage male dogs. If it were me I'd walk in quiet places, with good visibility (heath not woods), might take a stick to block other dogs, and might even consider a 'dog chastity belt' (yes they are a thing!) just in case.

I guess it all comes down to responsible ownership, and it's a shame that not all owners are responsible.

 

[merlina]

I agree sort of. But it's not a universal cure. My rescue lurcher Bernie the Beautiful came to us neutered. Yet he harassed a local policeman's male dog if he every encountered the dog on or off lead. WORSE on a walk with a neighbour and her small collie bitch Bernie ravished the bitch in full view of the school bus. Her owner, a doctor (!) said placidly 'oh dear she must be coming into season.' When I said this shouldn't happening, Bernie has no bits, she just laughed and said well he remembers how then!

 

[JudyN]

If Jasper (neutered) meets a bitch in season, he goes all gooey-eyed and lovey-dovey and follows her around, nose firmly attached to her rear end. If he tentatively puts a paw on her back, I remove him pronto. So yes, they are still attracted to females in heat, and still know what to do - though I dare say he'd try even harder if he wasn't neutered.

 

[Ari_RR]

I don't think we ever ran into an in-season girl dog, although we've met some intact ones. I don't recall any memorable episodes during those encounters, but unneutered Ari had always viewed girl dogs (of all shapes and sizes) as supreme beings, so discouraging his advances was really easy for any of them.

A much bigger issue was somewhat common negative reaction from neutered males. As acquiescent as Ari was to girls, he was the opposite with boys. Up until he was 5 or 6 y.o. he had a short fuse, and was happy to engage in unpleasant barking/snarling exchanges with any big male who would give him a nasty look.

I think the intolerance for intact boys comes from lack of good socialization between intact and neutered.
In mostly neutered world, intact ones are different, strange, scary, and need to be growled at, so they go away.

Don't know how this can change, unfortunately.
A lot of humans, when seeing an intact male, assume he is more dangerous than a neutered one.
In reality though it may well be the other way around - intact one has been around neutered all his life, is used to them, doesn't see them as strange. Neutered ones are not familiar with intact, and react defensively (which sometimes easily translates into aggressive behavior).

Not all, of course. We knew plenty of neutered males who were just as confident and easy going with Ari as with other neutered ones.

It's not easy to be intact when most other dogs around (and their humans!) see you as strange, and try to drive you away
Not always easy to be an intact dog human too, by the way.
Takes thick skin, and a good pair, for both quadruped and biped.
Thick skin - literally, especially for the dog. Ari had been bitten by angry neutered more than once.

 

[JudyN]

Practically all the intact males I've met have been sweet-natured and not interested in causing trouble at all. Unfortunately that makes them even more of a target for Jasper - the whiff of testosterone to enrage him, and a dog he knows he can bully. He's yet to pick on the wrong guy

I agree, Ari - if more males were unneutered, then dogs would be better socialised to them and accept them as standard. Which country is it where it's not permitted to neuter dogs unless there's a medical reason? It would be valuable to learn about dog interactions there, whether there are more or less fights, unwanted litters, and so on.

 

[merlina]

Scandinavia has excellent and quite strict animal welfare rules and in general doesn't neuter- in Norway I think it was illegal and may still be. In Sweden fewer than 10% of bitches are spayed and even fewer dogs. .

 

[Vicbloss]

While it's not strictly Scandinavia, in Finland, in the cities at least, most dogs are walked almost exclusively on lead. Even in the woods. There are dog exercise areas - fenced off areas - where the dogs can go free. The only separation as I remember is between big and small dogs. Not sure what the policy is on neutering.

 

[Mad Murphy]

I think we have gone off the track of the OP's question which was
why do shelters neuter pups?

The answer is quite clear because dogs will do what dogs do and the shelters cannot trust humans to prevent it.
Someone has to do something to stop the un-controlled breeding it might not be the best answer but short of killing every unwanted dog or refusing to rehome any dog until it is fully grown and then de-sexed or refusing to re-home any dog at all...The soloution is to de-sex young and allow the dogs the chance of a decent home life.

 

[Ari_RR]

I think in US it’s common to have a smaller area in dog parks for small dogs. At least in our area this is common.
In reality, “small dog section” is used for shy and submissive dogs, not just small.. whose who find themselves uncomfortable with other lose big ones.

But I think definition of “dog park” varies too. Here is US a dog park is a fairly small fenced area.
Some are nicer/cleaner than others.
Some cities restrict access to residents only.
Others restrict access to only neutered dogs when older than 6 months.

We explored many on them with Ari, unfortunately. With our new puppy Miles - dog parks are off the menu.

But then there are nature parks - big, with lakes and trails, etc. Some of them allow off leash dogs, while most require them on lead.

 

[Ari_RR]

The answer is quite clear because dogs will do what dogs do and the shelters cannot trust humans to prevent it.

Yep. And this makes sense. For shelters.

For individual owners, however - there is a choice. At the very least they can and should evaluate their own ability to prevent matings and unwanted litters, research the effects of neutering and early neutering, take into account local customs perhaps, and make the decision.

 

[Biker John]

Reference has been made about how well behaved dogs at Crufts are. Yes in general, but their are exceptions, my lovely sweet natured Whippet bitch was bitten while walking past the standard Poodle ring at a large championship dog show. No warning was given by the other dog and mine was just walking along with me. So although most show dogs are well behaved not all are.

 

[Nanny71]

Dudley is an accidental cross breed. I see no reason for him to produce other cross breeds. Therefore he is neutered.

 

[Josie]

I find when out walking that it’s the owner with the problem rather than the dog.

I have encountered a few people who say ‘my dogs entire and he’s so soppy, he wouldn’t hurt a fly’

Yes that may be true. But for other owners (or in my case) walkers who walk entire males who aren’t so go lucky I find it really disrespectful when they don’t recall their dog back when they can see mine on the lead. Then it makes me nervous and probably makes the situation worse!

Since being in a situation envolving two entire males I am extra caustious probably too much so!

I also don’t really see the need for them to stay entire if they’re not being used for breeding but that’s a personal opinion of course!

 

[Teddy560]

I think it's ok to go a bit off topic sometimes as long as it remains respectful. I like learning different perspectives and discussing them

 

[Whippylove]

Oliver and Rolo are both intact and are such soft and quiet natured boy's with other dog's and people while Marley is neutered due to an undescended testicle and is wild! Doesn't like other dog's near him barks at them and reacts to most things. They're totally opposites

 

[excuseme]

I have never neutered or spayed a dog just because it is the thing to do or for convenience. I believe that when we choose the sex of our new puppy we should understand the responsibilities of which sex we choose, and not to let which ever we choose, to roam the streets /parks/countryside unattended ! This is part of responsible dog ownership. It works for both males and females.
I am attaching an article that I have discovered (I hope)by my vet, that can help some of us make the right decision.

Neutering Your Dog – Making an Informed Decision

 

[Vicbloss]

Interesting article. I must confess, I didn't realise that neutering was such a controversial topic. I think that is because I have only had, and would only ever have, "rescue dogs" (for want of a better phrase) so I have never had, or likely will have, a choice.
I would hazard a guess that those in favour of neutering are more likely to be rehomers than first homers. Just a guess, might not be true and, of course, it's a huge generalization.

 

[merlina]

Thank-you for posting, excuseme. To be honest I've read so many studies showing much the same results over the years. All give more or less the same answer. If you're a private owner with a cared-for dog, neutering is only to be done once the animal has a chance to mature and only then if your life situation requires it. Nobody seems too fussed about the ethical arguments at all- what right do we have to put an animal through a traumatic procedure for our own convenience? I believe like ear cropping and tail docking it will gradually be seen as unacceptable unless for proven medical reasons. That's my hope and opinion.

With rescues it is a different matter because they try to work for the general good of dogs- though you can make yourself unpopular by pointing out the number of older bitches who find themselves homeless due to incontinence. An incredibly difficult rehome as well. But it's not something anyone wants to admit to or talk about.

 

[Teddy560]

Thank-you for posting, excuseme. To be honest I've read so many studies showing much the same results over the years. All give more or less the same answer. If you're a private owner with a cared-for dog, neutering is only to be done once the animal has a chance to mature and only then if your life situation requires it. Nobody seems too fussed about the ethical arguments at all- what right do we have to put an animal through a traumatic procedure for our own convenience? I believe like ear cropping and tail docking it will gradually be seen as unacceptable unless for proven medical reasons. That's my hope and opinion.

With rescues it is a different matter because they try to work for the general good of dogs- though you can make yourself unpopular by pointing out the number of older bitches who find themselves homeless due to incontinence. An incredibly difficult rehome as well. But it's not something anyone wants to admit to or talk about.

I don't believe any dogs should be left to roam unsupervised tbh. I chose to neuter Ted when I did due to a safer, happier, less stressful life for all of us due to our circusmtances. And so far, so good I do believe there are benefits to leaving them intact and if you don't have to do surgery, then why would you. My main bug bear is a lot of owners simply aren't like the ones on this forum and responsible and see puppies as an easy way to make money

 

[leashedForLife]

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@Ari_RR -
QUOTE,
“Intact dogs are no less trainable than neutered.”


That’s true if & only if U as the owner, are both willing & able to train that particular dog, with the time & skill needed, or perhaps have the time, & are also willing to develop the skills.
EDIT: ...or U have the money to pay someone else, who does have the skill, to train Ur dog for U. // In any case, only 10% of all the pet dogs in the USA receive any training, other than housetraining, & possibly to “sit for a treat”.
90% of pet dogs in America are pathetically ignorant.

Plus, training is indeed a bit more complex & challenging with an intact M dog than with an intact F, or in contrast to training dogs of either gender, who have been desexed.

I’ve been training other folks’ dogs since i was 18-YO; that was more than 40 years ago, & i can state with considerable confidence that, IME, intact dogs of both sexes are generally more awkward to train, & Ms are worse - again, in general - than most intact-Fs.

Luckily, bitches are “only” highly-hormonal 2x each year, but it’s a full month or more of estrous behavior, as there’s a lead-in & a fade-out on both ends; 4 to 6 weeks of ‘bitchyness’ toward other Fs & more or less soliciting & flirting with Ms, plus being highly distracted & easily distractable, marking frequently to advertise her interesting condition, possibly kick-scratching as well as frequent urine-dabs, chesty & irritable with other dogs she usually gets on well with, etc.

Ms are ‘hormonal’ all year every year, & are at their absolute worst re sexually driven behaviors during their super-male phase at approximately 8.5 to 11-MO, when they secrete FIVE TO SEVEN TIMES the circulating testosterone vs an adult intact-M of 15 to 18-MO or older, & are thus rendered sex-crazed eejits by the androgens in their bloodstreams.

If there’s another dog within visual distance, they are instantly distracted - if it’s a M, they want to investigate immediately & challenge him, if it’s a F, they want to investigate immediately & flirt - either way, they can’t concentrate for 2-seconds in succession.
They leg—lift in places they never did before, such as on upholstered furniture & the outfacing corners of walls, the kitchen island, the kitchen trash can or recycle bin, wheels of cars, strangers’ trouser legs, yadda-yadda.
They hump anything that holds still or catches their fancy, which can include hassocks, pillows, human limbs, spayed F dogs, M dogs of any repro status, pups of either sex, stuffed toys... in short, they exhibit all the prototypical M dog behaviors, but magnified in intensity & frequency.

Taking a teen-male dog “for a walk” will test Ur patience, teach U new ways of groveling to indignant passersby, & may provide bar-stories for years to come.
[“This lady was walking her dog, they were across the road from us, & he dragged me clear into the street in front of a bicyclist, who swerved & ran up onto the sidewalk, nearly hitting the lady’s dog. Then he wraps the leash around the bike, & while I’m trying to get it untangled & apologizing to the bike-rider, he’s trying to mount the other dog, & the owner is screaming, “Get him off! - get him off!...” ... ]


Also, just as an aside, male-driven behaviors are both instinctive AND learned:
If he is neutered after his super-male phase, behaviors that he has practiced [which may include M:M reactivity or hostility, territorial aggro, mounting / humping, leg-lifting indoors or on inapropos objects such as human legs, escaping to roam, & others] will be reduced post-desex, but some will need B-mod to eliminate them, & others will need management - possibly lifelong.

Luckily, some of the most-objectionable behaviors are pretty much eliminated by neutering itself:
In a study of intact male dogs with multi-year problem behaviors [IOW, entrenched bad habits], 9 out of 10 dogs who had been leg-lifting indoors simply STOPPED after desex - they did not need retraining, nor were they confined to dog-proof areas or crated, they simply quit peeing inside the house. *Shrug*
In the same study, 6 out of 10 dogs who’d been habitually dog-aggro improved by more than 50% once they were neutered - they still needed B-Mod to resolve the issue, but it was much less intense, & thus would be easier to work on, & more likely to be successful.


I’ve met wonderful intact male dogs... sociable or at least tolerant of non family humans & other dogs, excellent communicators who let U know very clearly when they were getting uncomfortable or cranky with the situation... but i’ve also met intact-Ms who were absolute nightmares, & who - IMO at least, if not that of their owners! - would have been greatly improved by removing their gonads. Like, immediately - if not sooner.

For novice owners with zero interest in breeding, I see no point in their struggling thru their male dog’s super-male phase, period; I tell them simply that if I was them & he was mine, i’d get him snipped.
I’d schedule his neuter no later than 8 to 8.5-MO, & avoid the whole teen-male phase.


IMO & IME, what with socialization, habituation, housetraining, basic manners, context-specific cued behaviors, & any other doo-dads, there’s more than enuf “stuff to do” in any dog’s first year of life, without the added aggravation of coaching a sexually overcharged adolescent thru that post-puberty manic period. Skip it.


If U intend to breed, of course, U do have to get him thru that super-male phase, intact... plus do all the required testing to determine his genetic status vis-a-vis dog generic & breed specific heritable problems. Some of those tests will be DNA, some will be bloodwork, others skin punches or scrapings, some will be radiographs, others may be ultrasound screenings.
Above & beyond all that physical stuff, he ends to have a good temperament & be of good physical type [appearance] - size, structure, coat texture, any markings, pigment, ear set... there’s a big, big list. // With approx 50% of all pups being male, fewer than 1 in 10 is going to even APPROACH being sire-worthy.
That’s a lotta surplus wannabe-studs.

- terry

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