Does mantrailing or scentwork increase prey drive?

[LolaNH123]

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I took my dog to a mantrailing introduction course a few days ago and she really enjoyed it. She was also quite good at it and so I was going to carry on going.

However after the workshop for the past few days she is more obsessed than usual with finding prey. On 3 separate occasions she has run off to track down prey (not even when the prey is visible she just uses her nose). On all of those occasions she came running back to me after a minute or 2.

She had a pretty high prey drive before but would mostly not go out of her way to find the prey.

I am pretty disappointed because we both enjoyed mantrailing but obviously I wont keep going if it makes her prey drive unmanageable to the point where I can't let her off leash safely anywhere.

Does anyone know why this might have happened or any advice?
Thanks in advance!

 

[JoanneF]

It's an interesting point.

I've often seen advice to use activities like this to satisfy a dog's innate drives in a controlled way; like using those big balls with herding breeds and flirt poles with terrier types. So my instinct is to say no, it doesn't increase prey drive.

But logically, I could understand how sharpening a dog's skill could make them more switched on.

It will be interesting to hear what others make of this.

 

[Feverfew]

Interesting. I will say, I'm not a big fan of the term 'prey drive' - I think it gives the wrong impression of what dogs do when they hunt.

A lot of people see hunting as strongly instinctive, which it is in part, but successful hunters do not run hell for leather after everything in sight. In a real survival situation, a dog like that would not last more than a few weeks, because to be successful, they need to be cautious, careful, willing to persevere and able to process information intelligently. They need to be able to think.

I've only lived with one dog who had these attributes, a Lurcher, who was an extremely successful hunter. He spent most of his hunting time scenting and scanning - he would use wind direction a lot, and could distinguish between a scent left by disturbance (eg footprints) and a scent left by brushing against foliage. I taught him none of this - he knew it all already.

What really marked him out when he detected potential prey (eg rabbit or squirrel) is he would very carefully get to a position where the prey could not scent him. He would often watch it, I think probably working out whether he could get to it in time. If he thought he couldn't, he just walked on. He never rushed things. Extraordinary to see this.

When he did chase, he almost always timed it right, and everything he caught was killed with his first or second bite. He'd then parade it for a while, then dissect and eat it, so he had the full sequence (your dog may not - depends on breed, often, and general disposition).

The reason I say all this is because hunting is a whole sequence, and if the mantrailing (or other search activities) emphasises only one or two parts of a hunt sequence, you get skewed behaviour, eg, all the focus on the 'find' and much less on scanning, thinking, processing, decision making.

When you say you can't see any prey and she appears to be hunting by scent only, that's a typically human perception of what hunting involves. I think it's hard for us as humans to understand exactly what a dog experiences when she is in a hunting sequence, but she certainly doesn't need to see the prey to hunt. From what I see, dogs are fully immersed in all their senses at once when they are hunting seriously.

All this is to say, I think I would be thinking carefully about what natural skills the mantrailing is asking her to use, and whether all the different skills needed for hunting are evenly distributed. If they are, and you both enjoy it, and she's not encouraged or inclined to lose her head, you should be fine, I think. It's a very normal behaviour, but it needs to be 'done right'. I honestly don't think she will hunt more due to mantrailing, provided the mantrailing is thoughtful and doesn't get silly!

My Lurcher didn't always hunt, but if he did, he did go out of sight, sometimes for quite long periods, and that may or may not be okay for you and your dog, eg if she's not confident around strangers, doesn't like other dogs etc. My boy always trotted back to me eventually. If nothing else, a hunting dog knows exactly how to find his person!

 

[LolaNH123]

Interesting. I will say, I'm not a big fan of the term 'prey drive' - I think it gives the wrong impression of what dogs do when they hunt.

A lot of people see hunting as strongly instinctive, which it is in part, but successful hunters do not run hell for leather after everything in sight. In a real survival situation, a dog like that would not last more than a few weeks, because to be successful, they need to be cautious, careful, willing to persevere and able to process information intelligently. They need to be able to think.

I've only lived with one dog who had these attributes, a Lurcher, who was an extremely successful hunter. He spent most of his hunting time scenting and scanning - he would use wind direction a lot, and could distinguish between a scent left by disturbance (eg footprints) and a scent left by brushing against foliage. I taught him none of this - he knew it all already.

What really marked him out when he detected potential prey (eg rabbit or squirrel) is he would very carefully get to a position where the prey could not scent him. He would often watch it, I think probably working out whether he could get to it in time. If he thought he couldn't, he just walked on. He never rushed things. Extraordinary to see this.

When he did chase, he almost always timed it right, and everything he caught was killed with his first or second bite. He'd then parade it for a while, then dissect and eat it, so he had the full sequence (your dog may not - depends on breed, often, and general disposition).

The reason I say all this is because hunting is a whole sequence, and if the mantrailing (or other search activities) emphasises only one or two parts of a hunt sequence, you get skewed behaviour, eg, all the focus on the 'find' and much less on scanning, thinking, processing, decision making.

When you say you can't see any prey and she appears to be hunting by scent only, that's a typically human perception of what hunting involves. I think it's hard for us as humans to understand exactly what a dog experiences when she is in a hunting sequence, but she certainly doesn't need to see the prey to hunt. From what I see, dogs are fully immersed in all their senses at once when they are hunting seriously.

All this is to say, I think I would be thinking carefully about what natural skills the mantrailing is asking her to use, and whether all the different skills needed for hunting are evenly distributed. If they are, and you both enjoy it, and she's not encouraged or inclined to lose her head, you should be fine, I think. It's a very normal behaviour, but it needs to be 'done right'. I honestly don't think she will hunt more due to mantrailing, provided the mantrailing is thoughtful and doesn't get silly!

My Lurcher didn't always hunt, but if he did, he did go out of sight, sometimes for quite long periods, and that may or may not be okay for you and your dog, eg if she's not confident around strangers, doesn't like other dogs etc. My boy always trotted back to me eventually. If nothing else, a hunting dog knows exactly how to find his person!

Thanks for your advice, I think mantrailing includes most of the hunting sequence just obviously not grabbing the 'prey' or dissecting it.

Although I'm not sure if dogs are actually encouraged to loose their heads a bit when mantrailing. Because the dogs are allowed to pull, bark and lunge. Do you think this is a bad thing?

 

[Feverfew]

Thanks for your advice, I think mantrailing includes most of the hunting sequence just obviously not grabbing the 'prey' or dissecting it.

Although I'm not sure if dogs are actually encouraged to loose their heads a bit when mantrailing. Because the dogs are allowed to pull, bark and lunge. Do you think this is a bad thing?

I don't think it's ideal, if I'm honest, because that behaviour may leak over into other situations where you don't want it. As I suggested, a dog who barks and lunges is not thinking clearly and is over stimulated.

Perhaps you can dial things down when she does find the person? I worked with cadaver dogs (they find bodies in earthquake rubble etc) for a while and they were often very, very quiet and calm when they were searching. It's not really a question of what is 'allowed' but what is encouraged. If the reward of finding the target is lots of whooping, clapping and food rewards, most dogs will find that over arousing. (A lot of what we do around dogs is terribly over the top, often because we want to see the dog excited, running around etc. I sometimes think they're actually a lot more dignified than we give them credit for). Your dog will know well in advance that she's found her target, so actual physical contact isn't necessary. Just a quiet acknowledgement. That's what I do with my own and clients' dogs when they are successful in tracking, searching and finding. That's all you need really, and you will often see an equally quiet satisfaction and pride on the part of the dog.

Not sure what your instructor will think about this! But if it is a noisy, barking, arousing environment, then unfortunately that probably is going to spill over into her life when she's in a similar situation.

I don't know where you are in the country, but one place that follows a similar philosophy is Tilley Farm in Gloucester, run by Sarah Fisher. Maybe if it's not too far from you, you could look into that, or ask them to recommend someone near you?

Good luck - it can be a really wonderful thing to be with a dog who is doing what they do best, but it needs to be done in the right way.

 

[JudyN]

What breed/type of dog is she? This might influence what 'prey drive' (actual or otherwise) looks like for her.

 

[LolaNH123]

I don't think it's ideal, if I'm honest, because that behaviour may leak over into other situations where you don't want it. As I suggested, a dog who barks and lunges is not thinking clearly and is over stimulated.

Perhaps you can dial things down when she does find the person? I worked with cadaver dogs (they find bodies in earthquake rubble etc) for a while and they were often very, very quiet and calm when they were searching. It's not really a question of what is 'allowed' but what is encouraged. If the reward of finding the target is lots of whooping, clapping and food rewards, most dogs will find that over arousing. (A lot of what we do around dogs is terribly over the top, often because we want to see the dog excited, running around etc. I sometimes think they're actually a lot more dignified than we give them credit for). Your dog will know well in advance that she's found her target, so actual physical contact isn't necessary. Just a quiet acknowledgement. That's what I do with my own and clients' dogs when they are successful in tracking, searching and finding. That's all you need really, and you will often see an equally quiet satisfaction and pride on the part of the dog.

Not sure what your instructor will think about this! But if it is a noisy, barking, arousing environment, then unfortunately that probably is going to spill over into her life when she's in a similar situation.

I don't know where you are in the country, but one place that follows a similar philosophy is Tilley Farm in Gloucester, run by Sarah Fisher. Maybe if it's not too far from you, you could look into that, or ask them to recommend someone near you?

Good luck - it can be a really wonderful thing to be with a dog who is doing what they do best, but it needs to be done in the right way.

Thanks for the advice! Hopefully if she understands the difference between everyday life and mantrailing, the behaviors wouldn't spill over? The instructor teaches it with a specific starting and ending ritual and also specific equipment so the dog knows when to trail.

In the intro course a super high value treat was used when the dogs found the person and lots of praise. But I assume that once the dog understand what to do, the praise will be dialed down a bit.

 

[Feverfew]

Thanks for the advice! Hopefully if she understands the difference between everyday life and mantrailing, the behaviors wouldn't spill over? The instructor teaches it with a specific starting and ending ritual and also specific equipment so the dog knows when to trail.

In the intro course a super high value treat was used when the dogs found the person and lots of praise. But I assume that once the dog understand what to do, the praise will be dialed down a bit.

You could be right - dogs are very good at discriminating and not so good at generalising, and it sounds as if the .instructor is trying to draw a distinction between those two areas of life. But no dog benefits from being in a situation where dogs are barking, lungeing and getting over excited. Imagine what show-jumping would be like if horses behaved like that in the warm-up ring. It would be chaos, and very dangerous.

So if it were me, I'd still be dialling down the excitememt, and I really wouldn't be going with food rewards at all. Dogs get a lot of satisfaction from hunting and seeking behaviour. I think food just muddies things unnecessarily, and it becomes all about the food at the end rather than the process of seeking, which your dog will really enjoy and find intrinsically rewarding. It's the latter process that's really important to the dog, even if she enjoys food. The same goes for toy rewards etc. You'll find her more 'driven' if you use these high-value rewards, but I don't think you need or want that over-the-top type of seeking, especially for a companion dog (rather than a working dog, eg drug detection dog).