Dog attacks on people?

[JudyN]

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I see prey drive is more like a conscious choice on the dog’s part. He is genetically wired to chase and hunt prey, but he knows what he is doing. As I understand it, predatory drift is where a red mist comes down, the dog loses sight of what is actually the prey and reacts on pure instinct.

I think it is a little bit like where a dog redirects a bite on to the owner. The urge to bite is so powerful, but the subject of the behaviour becomes confused.

That's not how I see it - but then according to this article, it's not a clearly defined term, at least when related to animal behaviour: “Predatory Drift,” Revisited

To me, predatory drift is the same as prey drive, but directed at the 'wrong' target. It may be a dog being triggered for some reason to regard a small dog, or a child, as if it was a rabbit. And in both contexts, the dog's mindset is that of, say, an Olympic archer who is absolutely, 100%, in his zone as he aims at the target.

I don't think I'd call a redirected bite 'predatory drift' - that would more often be the result of frustration, and the bite would be totally different from that of an animal dealing with its prey. In fact back in the day, Jasper would redirect on to me occasionally if he saw a cat (absolutely not prey drive - he just hates cats), but never if he saw a rabbit or deer while on lead - he's then thrumming, ready for action, but as a calm as the archer preparing for his shot.

As I said, though, I don't think the definition is clear, so maybe to an extent we are making it up based on our individual experiences of prey drive and aggression I have plenty of experience with both).

 

[JoanneF]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear - I didn't mean redirected bite was like PD in any other way than that the dog has moved into a sort of reptilian brain, reflexive rather than conscious, state of mind. Again, I may not be explaining what I mean very well, but it at least seems I'm not alone in having difficulty defining it!

 

[Goldens4ever]

Your defiantly not alone im very rubbish at trying to explain what im trying to say it always makes sense in my head than it does writing it down

 

[Goldens4ever]

Interesting artical @JudyN if its not predatory drift what could be the likley reason the pit attacked the boy?

Ive heard from his parents hes going to be ok thankfully the Dr said if your neighbor (me) had not thought quickly to get the dog of he may not have been. Im just so glad hes going to be ok

He has a lot of damage to his left thigh that will take a long time to heal

 

[Goldens4ever]

I know I said i was not going to post the link but i know if someone knowledgeable on dog behaviour could tell me what is going on in this video I'll understand better.

Warning it is upsetting to watch.

 

[Inka]

Why the dog ran at them in the first place 'could be' because of children screaming/shouting/high pitched child voices, as there is no sound it is difficult to say... but that could potentially be the reason and why childrens play grounds/school playgrounds are fenced off, not necessarily to stop stray dogs peeing/pooing but because lots of dogs are noise sensitive and children playing/making noise/waving their arms about encourage dogs and their normal play can initiate attacks espeically from dogs who are not used to children... Then the mother pulled the child and lifted her up, any child in this situation will be shocked/crying/mother shouting and that will excite the dog further and it happens several times she pulls the child from the dog much like a tug toy putting the other child on the floor to get the other child the dog has got....... so noise/crying/shouting and 'playing' tug will all be involved, esculating the attack. A very hard situation for them to find themselves in as mum wants to protect her children. Once the guy got the child and he didn't lift her up she was just held hanging towards his back, the guy used his body to block the dog and kicked out to keep the dog back while the children were put in the car and although the clip stopped then I suspect it was because the dog stopped as quickly as it started ... there was nothing else to film, 'noise' and 'tug toy' were removed.

 

[Goldens4ever]

Why the dog ran at them in the first place 'could be' because of children screaming/shouting/high pitched child voices, as there is no sound it is difficult to say... but that could potentially be the reason and why childrens play grounds/school playgrounds are fenced off, not necessarily to stop stray dogs peeing/pooing but because lots of dogs are noise sensitive and children playing/making noise/waving their arms about encourage dogs and their normal play can initiate attacks espeically from dogs who are not used to children... Then the mother pulled the child and lifted her up, any child in this situation will be shocked/crying/mother shouting and that will excite the dog further and it happens several times she pulls the child from the dog much like a tug toy putting the other child on the floor to get the other child the dog has got....... so noise/crying/shouting and 'playing' tug will all be involved, esculating the attack. A very hard situation for them to find themselves in as mum wants to protect her children. Once the guy got the child and he didn't lift her up she was just held hanging towards his back, the guy used his body to block the dog and kicked out to keep the dog back while the children were put in the car and although the clip stopped then I suspect it was because the dog stopped as quickly as it started ... there was nothing else to film, 'noise' and 'tug toy' were removed.

I just found another one were there is sound and your right they start screaming when the Rottie runs over and he apparently is a Guard dog that go out.

So now we know they were screaming it would have been that , that started the attack?

 

[Inka]

If you look at the dogs body language before, during and afterwards, it is not agressive it is not attacking the adult mum or the males who are shouting/running around it is 'playing' and reacting to the excitement... even a noise sensitive dog are unlikely to react to deeper male voice tones.

 

[Goldens4ever]

If you look at the dogs body language before, during and afterwards, it is not agressive it is not attacking the adult mum or the males who are shouting/running around it is 'playing' and reacting to the excitement... even a noise sensitive dog are unlikely to react to deeper male voice tones.

Wanna check i understand correctly , so if its not being aggressive does that mean the Rottie is attacking the children as if there a tug toy?

 

[Inka]

Wanna check i understand correctly , so if its not being aggressive does that mean the Rottie is attacking the children as if there a tug toy?

Yes...if you watch the mum pulls the child, the dog pulls back, she lifts the child high and swings it around so the dog jumps up to grab, to the dog is a 'game' even a nasty hard to watch game, where screams increased it.

 

[Goldens4ever]

Yes...if you watch the mum pulls the child, the dog pulls back, she lifts the child high and swings it around so the dog jumps up to grab, to the dog is a 'game' even a nasty hard to watch game, where screams increased it.

Thank you for watching it to explain i know its a horrible thing to watch, i was in tears when i saw it.

But you have explained well and this is the reason i wanted to ask as when i watched again i could see what you were saying and i was seeing it through different eyes if that makes sense.

Im not going to start posting lots of videos but theres just one more im confused on

I could kind of understand biting the person on the bike as the bike is a moving object and the one walking the pit said the kids were provoking the pit but what i dont get is why he attacked the guy especially when they got the pit off , i dont understand why he attacked him again once he broke free from his harness

 

[Inka]

So the first child on bike, stopped, got off the other side of where the dog was, so the bike blocked any attack on him...likely bike wheel movement motivated ( lots of dogs can be, BC are one of the biggest ones who will try to stop a wheel and round up the bike/car), but could be teased by kids, could be fearful of bikes, could even be handler arguing with bike boy or culd be it is non people 'friendly'... so the attack on second bike could be again wheel motivated and/or a conflict going on with dog handler/boy on bike joining in or redirected aggression ( can't get first one so will get next one who is closer) all encouraged by noise and shouting/arm and hand actions/running esculates the excitment...... and because dogs can go from 1 to 50 in a second, it slipped its lead and because it is still in that zone of excited frenzy it sees the nearest target to continue ....redirecting its aggression on him but it is not really 'redirected aggression' that would normally be the dog that sees another dog or cat out of the window and turns and bites the person sitting on the chair next to them, or the dog who is on a lead can't get to what is over exciting it, so turns and bites the handlers leg... so more likely it had not had time to come down from the excitment frenzy of the situation.

 

[Goldens4ever]

Thanks Inka that explains a lot.

Can i ask how do we prevent redirected aggression like a dog who is frustrated on the lead so redirects and bites the owner how can we prevent this?

 

[JudyN]

Can i ask how do we prevent redirected aggression like a dog who is frustrated on the lead so redirects and bites the owner how can we prevent this?

Avoiding situations where it might arise is important - so if it's dogs, avoid other dogs and work on reactivity in general so seeing a dog won't cause a reaction. More details here: Dog Reactivity

Teaching impulse control - look for a vid called It's Yer Choice on YouTube - helps a dog handle the frustrations that will inevitably happen from time to time.

Jasper had to wear a muzzle, and that would protect me against redirected aggession, or frustrated tantrums. If we saw a cat, I would first try to take avoiding action, even if it meant retracing our steps. If he did kick off and redirect at me, I would turn away and say nothing, hold on to a fence/tree/lamppost if necessary (he's taller than me when he jumps up), and wait for him to blow himself out. Once he calmed down, I'd praise and treat. Eventually, he realised that his tantrums were achieving nothing an he'd blow over much more quickly and look to me for a treat.

 

[Inka]

It is important that your dog gets plenty of exercise/lead walking/obedience training, socialisation and mental stimulation as that depletes their energy and makes them a better behaved and rounded dog .
Most dogs do not redirect their aggression but for the ones that have done, do or could, then as dogs only 'do what works' for them you stop it working...
First you don't allow any continued esculation of uncontrolled excitement, if you think of a group of 3-4 yr olds running around and playing and they get more and more over excited you know someone is going to be falling over, get hit, toy snatched from them and some tears...so you calm the excited play down, redirect them into doing something else so it doesn't get to that level of losing control.
You can redirect their attention to something else like a toy, if they are holding a toy in their mouth they will bite down on that not redirect, maybe your dog needs to do more physical/mental exercise, you can retrain a particular issue, so 'doesn't like dog over the road' change that with training ( speicalist training if you don't know how to do that yourself),, removing the chair it climbs up on to bark and get over excited at cats, dogs, passersby, squirrels or whatever and redirects onto you and a well fitting basket muzzle if you have a dog that is doing it ( think of safety)

 

[Goldens4ever]

Thank you @JudyN and @Inka

I was just about to ask if i was right that not all dogs redirect but you beat me too it Inka.

I was going to say I've never seen a Lab or Golden redirect back to the owner thats why i was gonna ask if not all dogs redirect.

Its good to learn and know all this before i get my Golden.

So its somthing i can prevent in the first place when hes a puppy?

Forgot to say the mother of the boy who got attacked told me the police told her about this spray that can help stop a dog from attacking temporarily.

K9 Dog Deterrent Spray 50ml - Protect Our Pets

Dont know if it actually works or not

 

[Inka]

I am septical about gadgets and reality is are you going to carry a spray 24/7 just in case a dog attacks you?
I would prefer to teach people espeically children how to behave around dogs, so stand still, don't stare at the dog, don't raise your arms, don't make a noise/scream, turn your back ( if possible) NEVER run ...if attacked get into the fetal position, if the dog grabs your clothes slip out of it or bag let it have it and move very slowly, if you see an attack, target the dog, not what/who it is attacking and if you can use something around you as a barrier then use it.

 

[Goldens4ever]

I was always told to get ontop of a car if a dog runs towards you

 

[JoanneF]

I'm afraid if you got on top of my car, it's not the dog you would need to worry about!

 

[Inka]

I'm afraid if you got on top of my car, it's not the dog you would need to worry about!