Dog wants to play not potty outside then whines to go out for potty when I take her in.

[deka]

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Getting stressed out over this, she will go in morning when she wakes no problem but any other time of day at best she will have a small wee after I tell her to "settle" and/or put my hands in pocket and turn my back to her.

I am spending 30 minutes on average a time at least 3 times and maybe up to 6 times a day trying to get her to do a poop, the second she goes outside (I should mention I take her on a lead to field next to house as I don't have a fenced off garden) she bites and pulls the lead and jumps about and then tries to bite lead out of my hand which in itself is stressful as often she misses and I get cuts and bruises on my arm or my stomach.

She is fine as took her to vet and did wee samples, she did have a minor infection about 6 weeks ago which she was on meds for and after that she goes most nights without wanting out which is a great improvement.

The nips are painful to me and I have in reaction screamed and she gets startled and stops.

After her long play outside doing nothing except maybe a wee she comes indoors and instantly whines and even can jump behind me and bark at me and has had a few accidents due to this too.

She is crying wolf so many times its hard to tell when she really needs out and I think she actually does need out but shes too easily distracted and wants to play so when she comes back in she still needs to go.

I have sometimes spent 60-90 minutes of my time with no peace as she whines and wants out and its often when I finally have a few seconds to relax and get something to eat or drink she barks meaning I have to rush out for her only for her to do nothing again.

Shes 10 months old now and whilst she always has been playful biting lead and jumping its been in the past month it has gotten worse and I think she has hit her teen phase for real as she also has began having zoomies again in evening rather than just sleep in evenings like she has done for past 2 or 3 months just as she began to have accidents again about 3 weeks ago after going about 5 weeks with none.

The only other changes to her routine at time she changed is I changed her kibble a month ago but its high quality stuff but also I upped her amount of food as she was a tiny bit underweight from 4 handfuls of kibble a day to 6.

And in the past 2 weeks due to the warm weather I have been taking her on shorter main walks i.e rather than a 20-30 minute walk around the park its a 10-15 one (though considering shes out for multiple 20-30 minute outings to field per day shes outside far more than before)

Need some advice on this.

 

[JudyN]

Have you been following all the advice we've given before about biting, lead grabbing, etc.? How much exercise is she getting a day - please break it down into on/off lead, garden play, etc.? What mental stimulation have you been doing with her each day, and for how long? Have you followed the suggestions/videos for teaching a good settle?

 

[deka]

I will have to go back and read my previous thread, what I normally do is a main walk at lunchtime which pre about a month ago was as much as 45 minutes then, and every 2 hours or so take her to field and go around for about 10 minutes to see if she needed potty.

As the heat rose and she took longer to go I cut that down to 20 minute walk and small 5-10 minute walks in the shade.

Never take her off lead as theres no safe area around here, unless a neighbour is out with their dog and the two run around together for 10 minutes or so and that wears her out.

She settles fine these days often just lies beside me or on sofa and sleeps its only when she goes outside shes this bad, indoors she may get a bit restless now and again and look for paper/cardboard to chew.

 

[JudyN]

She sounds very understimulated - she's a collie, that brain needs to work! If she's safe to let off lead when she's with another dog, why isn't she safe to let off lead otherwise? Have you been working on recall and making walks more interesting, e.g. with sniffing games?

Yes, do go and read all your previous threads, and follow the links given to more info - there is a lot there, but she won't actually improve if you don't do it.

 

[deka]

Haven't done any real recall training in months, when shes off her lead other times she just runs off and wants to play and wont come back and as shes so fast its hard to catch her, she may stop and when I get close she runs off again thinking it's a game. If I use a treat it has to be something she can see and then she will come back.

I was going to go back to trainer but was waiting until she gets spayed first as she of course would be sensitive for a while after.

The way I walk her is by a pond and I let her sniff a lot of the trees and grass thinking its all stimulating for her.

 

[JudyN]

If you're not doing recall training, then she's hardly likely to recall, is she?

Sniffing trees and grass is better than a straight walk along pavements, but nowhere near enough for a border collie. It's not surprising she runs off when she's off lead, because she has to find her own entertainment.

Being spayed is no reason to delay training - she'll only need to skip walks for a couple of days, and then can go back to gentle lead walks, which is pretty much what she's getting anyway. And recall training can start from the far end of a lead...

 

[CoCo2014]

Oh dear your dog needs brain training not masses of exercise in hot weather.
Sounds to me if you haven't been doing enough training toilet outside & by yelling/screaming/saying ouch when you get nipped simply turns it into a rewarding game. If you take behaviour that an adult dog gives an OTT puppy, they don't growl/bark/snarls they ignore the behaviour & move out of range.

 

[deka]

I did realise after I posted that in the past I used to use food time to teach cues so she probably got some brain training there and whilst she used to bite lead as we went out and jump a little after a minute or so she stopped and then happily went, I haven't taught her at food times in months.

What I did notice though also after I posted I found 2 ticks on her and after removal she was calmer until a few days ago when she went a bit crazy again and today I found 2 more ticks and she calmed down after they were removed.

I will mention I don't drive and I lowered my recall training around Christmas because it was cold early dark nights added with at the time her toilet training meant she had accidents indoors.

Back when I gave her longer walks on the walk back there was a large field and I would let her off lead when it was empty and if I saw another person or animal I would call her back, actually at the time she would come back to me each time.

I don't mind longer walks but I cut them down as I noticed she was going out a lot on top. I wasn't sure the best way to get her toys, she has a lot of teddy bears and a large tug rope but she either ignores her toys or just chews them and throws them about with no in between and I notice she only gets restless/chews toys when she needs to go outside so wasn't sure about what toys I can use to stimulate her.

What I tend to do is if shes relaxed or napping I leave her be, if shes restless I see that as a sign she wants out and often she even jumps to the chair by the door and wags her tail so I take her out and she does a wee and goes into her jump and bite routine, she will go to wee pretty much anywhere and straight away when outdoors so thats a good thing its the poop that is an issue as recently she has been doing tiny amounts sometimes even in morning.

It's just hard to gauge with her does she want out to play, for stimulation, both or because she wants to potty? She rarely has accidents these days but the times she does its when she goes into the noticable cycle of being restless, chewing her toys, jumping by the door and often if I don't take her out quickly she barks though the only times it has reached that point is when I work from home and its a busy day.

When I take her to doggy day care she comes home and just collapses on floor and doesn't move and doesn't even want to go outside, they take her on 1 walk a day in the warm weather and 2 on cool days and the rest of the day shes running around with her doggy friends.

I am looking at buying or renting a house soon as right now living in an upstairs flat means I can't just open the door and let her out if she needs the business.

Shes a beautiful and clever girl! Nowadays if I open bedroom door in evening she runs in goes to bed and barks for me to come to bed.

 

[Feverfew]

She does sound lovely, but quite a handful. There seem to be an awful lot going on for you both. What you say about the ticks is interesting and is making me wonder of some of her behaviour is linked to physical problems - in which case, no amount of 'stimulation' either mental or physical, is going to make any difference.
That being the case, plus a possible problem with her poo, means you could try a change of diet and see if that helps, or changing the times she is fed.
I'm also always slightly suspicious of the widely held view that collies need lots and lots of exercise and lots of brain games. Some do, others don't. I have met a lot of laid back collies in my time, though not so much now that this belief about collies being *different' is so widespread. Remember, working collies spend a lot of time in the back of a land rover or on the yard, interspersed with bursts of intense work with sheep. They aren't meant to be busy all the time any more than any other dog. In fact, as a young dog she needs a lot of sleep.

One thing I'd be looking at are her interactions with other dogs. You say she comes back from doggy daycare exhausted, and that is a red flag for me, coupled with the fact that you are letting her off lead only when you have other dogs there, who are kind of taking responsibility for her. She avoids coming back to you, possibly because her life with other dogs is just more real and more important to her than her life with you. I may be reading that incorrectly, but I think if you spend some time thinking about your relationship with her, and what your expectations of her are, you might find a way of being with her that isn't quite so fretful and anxious. Maybe focusing less on how you want her to behave and more on what her daily life is like for her will bring you some helpful insights.
Good luck! It sounds as if you enjoy ger company, so don't get too tangled up with the 'should' and 'ought tos'!

 

[deka]

A little update, I think she was in season as I noticed she was licking her bits a lot and on the Wednesday took her to dogsitters who had (neutered) male dogs there and all of them ran up to her and started sniffing around her bits, she has been calmer since in fact wanting a lot of cuddles, I also in hindsight noticed whenever I wanted to hug her she jumped off the sofa and hid whilst now shes the opposite and also she now wants to lick me a lot especially my hands she also since last week has took herself into the bedroom sometimes and slept on my bed, in the past she never did that except at bedtime also in the 2 weeks before last week I am not sure if it was nesting but she kept pulling all the cushions off the chairs and lying on them and taking all her toys and spreading them.

When I went to pick her up from doggy daycare she ran out the door and I panicked but the dogsitter just told me to stand still and call her back, and this worked and pup came running back up to me (though instantly ran away again and I called her back and she came back again) so that taught me to not worry as much.

She has started a new trick now that in the morning after she touches my face to wake me if I don't wake up she thows herself onto my stomach my dog growing up did the same thing so I find it so cute.

 

[deka]

Forgot to update, spoke to PDSA and they think she has a phantom pregnancy so shes seeing them next week.

 

[Hemlock]

Be aware (in case you aren't, and apologies if you are but it may help someone else) that phantom pregnancies are perfectly natural and normal, don't need to be treated, and run their course and fade out over a few weeks. However it is always wise to check that a dog doesn't have an infection of any kind, which is nothing to do with the false pregnancy, so very sensible of you to do what you are doing.

 

[deka]

Yeah they said they just wanted to check if she had any other issues, I still plan to get her spayed but as shes had a season I can't do it for a while and its near impossible to find a good price to get it done, PDSA only had applications for a small period and I applied and got approved but missed the call at the time as was in town and by time they got back to me the applications were closed.

Pup did have that water infection about 2 months ago but she was better for a month before she had the season now shes back to wanting out for wees a lot.

 

[excuseme]

I am sorry to jump on board this post and I do confess not reading everything slowly and thoroughly ! Typical me
I just wonder about her running to you when you call and then turning away and playing around again.
How much social activity does she have with you during each day. Do you use a cage for her?

 

[deka]

Don't use a cage for her, I generally have most doors in my flat open as she stopped having accidents a while back and as long as I keep food or anything she can put in her mouth out of her reach shes fine, recently she sometimes goes into the bedroom in evening and takes a nap on my bed.

Daytime generally she sits beside me or on bed and randomly she comes up to me and I scratch her face and neck call her a good girl and talk to her.

Anyway I think she does have something up with her, for past 10 days or so she wheezes a lot on walks even a 5 minute one and the longer the walk the heavier the wheezing and she wants to drink a lot and about a week ago found a small wet patch in hall which I assumed was a one off accident, but Wednesday she had a poop accident in hall, this was after I had her out for 30 minutes and she just wanted to play and eventually did a wee, came back in and 5 minutes later she was whinging so I waited a few minutes just in case she was just wanting to play and another 10 or so minutes outside and she just wanted to play again and I took her in, then she had a rare zoomie and ran in hall and I could smell something bad and she did a poop on rug, then yesterday she weed on my living room carpet in front of me (behind where I was sitting but in full view) then tonight I was about to go to bed so was going to take her out last thing as I always do and she stood at top of stairs (I was at base of them with lead as she normally follows me down if not goes first, I walked back up and she ran into living room and did a big wee again in front of me on the sofa, she grew out of that months ago and last did it back around March.

 

[deka]

So the vet found nothing wrong that was noticable, did say she might need a ultrasound if the issue doesn't go away and gave antibiotics because last time they helped for a few weeks, she said something about the water going down wrong tube and putting pressure on her bits as a potential issue.

Puppy was on the antibiotics for a week and actually got WORSE, I mean I could take her out she would do one or both take her in a few minutes later and she would whine and go out and do another, or have a drink of water and whine straight away and want straight out to do another, she seems to be worse for this the longer I take her out i.e on a 30/40 minute walk she may go 3 times even if the 2nd and 3rd time is for a second then come in and even if she doesn't instantly drink water she wants out again to squat.

Getting quite stressful as I live in a cottage flat and she likes to run off I have to put lead on, go downstairs take her to a field wait and for 5-10 minutes added with the fact she thinks when we go out it's to play take her in and she may want to go back out straight away, and then 30-60 minutes later she does the same thing, the only peace I get is when shes napping.

Could be a coincidence though as the day after she started her antibiotics I changed her from puppy to adult dry food so it may be saltier but even so she shouldn't want out 45-60 minutes on average.

 

[deka]

Ok she isn't better but is showing changes, today was strange and I am a little worried, she didn't drink all day until after her dinner, then kept wanting out whinging a lot but then not doing anything. Since she has been on the medicine (it ran out last week) she has been strange, for past few days she has been drinking less often but when she does its large amounts, and she has wanted out most nights at pretty much 3.30am every night bar last night when I went to bed at 11.45 and took her out at 10.45 rather than 10.30pm I went to bed before.

After her dinner I took her out for 20 minutes and she was playful (she gets hyper when she needs to go each time which is why I know she needs to go) eventually did a small poop, took her in she drank a entire bowl of water then within 2 or 3 minutes kept whining to go out, I was unhappy and unsure if she was just playing games so left it about 10 minutes but she started barking and chewing her toys (which she does when frustrated/needing to go) took her out for another 10 minutes and she was sniffing whole time but didn't go, took her back in and she did the same but I was cleaning up in kitchen and left it 15 minutes took her out again and same thing happened, and the final time she did this we were barely out the door when she decided she wanted to go back in and since then has napped.

 

[Feverfew]

It's a very puzzling case, and hard to know what is going on without seeing her. I gather from what you say that your vet has not found anything specific to her health that would explain her behaviour.

The only suggestion I can make is that she is definitely trying to tell you something. Earlier in the discussion, I asked some questions about her going to doggy day care and also what her walks are like. I wonder if you have given these aspects any further thought? I say this because while your observations of her are absolutely meticulous, this doesn't seem to be accompanied by any changes in her routine, or at least you have not mentioned any changes you have tried or considered trying. I was particularly struck that she looks at you directly when she wees indoors. If that is not direct communication, I don't know what is: the difficulty is working out what she is asking from you. Similarly, the barking, the toy chewing, and even the dramatic water ingestion all seem to me to be deliberate communication.

I say all this if it is indeed the case that she has a clean bill of health.

 

[deka]

Well I increased the walks to the 40-45 minute range again and often we see other dogs on walk and chat and puppy gets some attention, she has started a behaviour of the last month or so whenever she sees a puddle she gives it a quick lick then tries weeing in it!

Doggy day care she spends all day just having fun, the back door is open into a large garden with toys and she loves running around.

She actually got off lead earlier when taking her to toilet but she didn't do anything.

I think I said earlier in thread though can't remember all this occured around time she had her heat, at same time suddenly she didn't like going out when it was dark (unless it was middle of night) she all of a sudden spent part of night lying under my bed until around 2am, and around 6am she snuggles close to me.

The only other major changes to her is she has always had a bit of a crush on neighbour dog, at same time she was on her heat and even now if she hears him (as he barks for attention sometimes) she jumps up on chair and whines for him then barks at me whilst standing at door, if she sees him on a walk she jumps and pushes his face

 

[Feverfew]

Ok, that's interesting. The thing that stands out to me is:

Doggy day care she spends all day just having fun, the back door is open into a large garden with toys and she loves running around.

At daycare, she has the option to come and go between indoors and outdoors whenever she chooses. It's possible that she doesn't particularly distinguish between these two, and hence at home, where she doesn't have that choice, she doesn't have a clear picture of where she wees. Of course, it's possible she wees indoors at daycare as well, so it's worth asking about that.

It certainly sounds as if she has a lot of stimulation and freedom outside the home, particularly in her relationship with her own kind. I think I'd be looking at those relationships and figuring out what she gets from them, how healthy they are, and what her relationship is like with humans - not just you, but other people she knows. I'd be asking what the basis of these relationships (with dogs vs people) is, and how they differ from each other.