Dogs behaving badly

[arealhuman]

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Well I enjoy the programme, it makes for good viewing. I think people get confused about how TV programmes are made and what is actually broadcast. As for that petition, if they can't spell the name of the programme right, it kind of gives you a clue as to the people behind it. I have used two behaviourists in the past - one with qualifications as recommend on this forum - and they both used techniques shown in this programme.

The comments along the lines of "this guy is terrible, but I haven't seen the programme" are like something a politician would spout!

 

[JoanneF]

As for that petition, if they can't spell the name of the programme right, it kind of gives you a clue as to the people behind it.

The petition was from the programme he did last year on channel 4 (yes, I know there is still a spelling error) which was axed after many complaints - that's where I watched him and from having heard that he hasn't changed; I don't want to raise my blood pressure or Channel 5's viewing figures by watching him again

 

[JudyN]

The comments along the lines of "this guy is terrible, but I haven't seen the programme" are like something a politician would spout!

Hey, I haven't met Donald Trump but I think he's terrible... I am going on the descriptions and opinions of people I know and trust. Apparently the APDT and other dog organisations have also complained about the methods shown.

 

[Nanny71]

JudyN I have never met you but have decided I spend too much time on this forum.. today I heard someone calling Jasper in the street and I looked round expecting to see your dog and not the five year old boy I actually did see.

 

[JudyN]

JudyN I have never met you but have decided I spend too much time on this forum.. today I heard someone calling Jasper in the street and I looked round expecting to see your dog and not the five year old boy I actually did see.

Do people call their children Jasper? Has it come back into fashion? Whatever, it's an awesome choice of name, obviously

 

[Nanny71]

Do people call their children Jasper? Has it come back into fashion? Whatever, it's an awesome choice of name, obviously

Some people in our village are obviously very posh.

 

[Dibbythedog]

No I only watched one episode . Can't bear to watch it.
This was first on Channel 4 and there was a petition against it and they dropped it.
Now CH 5 have taken it up

 

[Dibbythedog]

I have watched two episodes of this programme. Will catch up with them some time
My husband insists I only watch because it makes Dudley look so good
Reading all the comments has made me realise how little I know about dog behaviour. He is three now and I am still worried I will do something wrong and cause psychological damage.

Dealing with his physical needs is easier. Feed him, walk him, play with him etc but what about his actual needs.

I'm sure you're doing fine. The physical things you do , feeding , playing etc , that goes a long way to making him feel contented.

 

[JudyN]

I think also a lot of dogs are easy-going and will brush off the odd time you shout at them, yank their collar or even swat them on the behind with a newspaper. And for some, this may actually fix whatever the problem was because the dog decides it's not a good idea to do what he was doing after all, and he's got all the resilience he needs to overcome it. Like children, some dogs thrive and are happy despite dodgy parenting.

I'm not saying these are ever the best approaches to dog training, just that if you have an easy - and easygoing - dog, you don't have to get it right all the time. But when you have a dog with more severe issues, you do have to know what you're doing or you can easily make things worse rather than better - generally because you are only focusing in the behaviour and not the emotions behind the behaviour, which is a bit like sticking your finger in the hole in a pressure cooker to stop it making a noise and steaming....

 

[JoanneF]

a bit like sticking your finger in the hole in a pressure cooker to stop it making a noise and steaming

Lovely analogy!

 

[Nanny71]

Don't think I have ever shouted at Dudley or yanked his collar. As for hitting him I never hit my children so certainly wouldn't hit the dog.

 

[JudyN]

Don't think I have ever shouted at Dudley or yanked his collar. As for hitting him I never hit my children so certainly wouldn't hit the dog.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply I thought you might Just that for many dogs, it's not going to be a problem if you don't do it by the book - or you use the wrong book. And I confess I have shouted at Jasper occasionally, e.g. if he's chased the geriatric cat, or tried to play humpy-rumpy with me. Doesn't do a bit of good, but I don't think it's done him any harm either!

 

[Dibbythedog]

Well I enjoy the programme, it makes for good viewing. I think people get confused about how TV programmes are made and what is actually broadcast. As for that petition, if they can't spell the name of the programme right, it kind of gives you a clue as to the people behind it. I have used two behaviourists in the past - one with qualifications as recommend on this forum - and they both used techniques shown in this programme.

The comments along the lines of "this guy is terrible, but I haven't seen the programme" are like something a politician would spout!

The spelling error was simply a typo , The petition was backed by behaviourists including those from the University of Bristol, including Emily Blackwell and John Bradshaw.

I'd be interested to know which behaviourists you saw and what there qualifications are and what techniques they used that were the same .

In the first programme with the two pulling labs when he was jerking them around , one of the labs was scared of him, it was obvious from his body language . Poor dog! Is that acceptable on national tv where dogs owners are going to copy him ?
What ever method you chose , it's going to be reinforced at some point .

 

[arealhuman]

Ah well, it was backed by someone from University, they're all obviously better than everyone else (but can't use a computer keyboard), makes a world of difference! No doubt these same Universities were peddling the same techniques years ago when they were in favour - as cited around this forum - and if anyone said different, they were the heretics. I'm glad Emily Blackwell and John Bradshaw back it, it'll make me sleep better at night. I hear Harold Smith backs it too.

I used an accredited trainer with whatever one of the current bodies is (COAPE or something like that), as recommended on this very forum. Her techniques were similar - walking my dog near things that cause him concern or distraction, taking him out of his comfort zone and so on. Did it work? Partially. I wouldn't spend the significant amount of money again, I think my own patience and techniques have worked better, but this may well have been as a result of what this trainer did, who knows. I did use a different trainer some time before that, but his techniques were all domination based and their effect wasn't long lasting, hence the recommendation from here.

If the programme bothers you that much, you can:

• Raise a(nother) complaint.
• Contact the makers of the programme direct.
• Contact the bloke who's in it via his website.
• Put your name against a meaningless online petition.
• Post on a forum.
• Watch Emmerdale instead.

 

[JudyN]

As they say, the only thing two trainers will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it wrong...

The value in this thread, and the point of making these comments about the show, is that anyone reading this won't watch the programme assuming that the trainer is an expert and it shows the 'correct' way to do things, but it will raise some doubt in their head. Then, hopefully, they will do a little research of their own and make their own decisions. And if they follow any one method and it doesn't work out, they won't just follow it harder, faster, longer trying to make it work but will consider that maybe it's the wrong method.

 

[Dibbythedog]

="arealhuman, post: 1189031, member: 90096"
I used an accredited trainer with whatever one of the current bodies is (COAPE or something like that), as recommended on this very forum. Her techniques were similar - walking my dog near things that cause him concern or distraction, taking him out of his comfort zone and so on. Did it work? Partially. I wouldn't spend the significant amount of money again, I think my own patience and techniques have worked better, but this may well have been as a result of what this trainer did, who knows. I did use a different trainer some time before that, but his techniques were all domination based and their effect wasn't long lasting, hence the recommendation from here.

Im not sure if it was a Coape behavioriist , Ive done their Think Dog courses and that's not quite what they do .
You've not said if they used corrections such as jerking the lead as Graeme does .

You haven't said much so Im not quite sure what you mean .
The comfort zone is where the dog is relaxed and not reacting , you expand the comfort zone , you don't take him out of it to face his fears before he is ready which is what Graeme does.

 

[Dibbythedog]

As they say, the only thing two trainers will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it wrong...

The value in this thread, and the point of making these comments about the show, is that anyone reading this won't watch the programme assuming that the trainer is an expert and it shows the 'correct' way to do things, but it will raise some doubt in their head. Then, hopefully, they will do a little research of their own and make their own decisions. And if they follow any one method and it doesn't work out, they won't just follow it harder, faster, longer trying to make it work but will consider that maybe it's the wrong method.

Good points , Judy.
Ive always had dogs , worked with animals and been to training classes over the years and seen then progress from dogs being jerked on choke chains to using clickers.

I thought I knew a lot about dogs and thought Jan Fennell TV programmes were the bees knees!

Then I went on line in 2000 and met people or read about people who really did know about dogs and other animals , clinical behaviourists , trainers etc people who have spent years researching animal behaviour and , people in general who were self taught but kept up to date and passed around their knowledge . There was so much I didnt know . I have learnt a lot since th en but still so much more to learn and its absolutely fascinating

The only good thing I can think of to say about Graeme is that he is not as bad as Cesar Milan .

 

[Dibbythedog]

The best things I learnt was about understanding dogs body language and a more thorough understanding of the principles of training and recognising the mistakes I had been making.
These two things cause the most misunderstandings between dog and humans ,
Whenever you hear someone say , my dogs stupid , its not usually the dog that's the stupid one.

If anyone is interested in learning more , there are a couple of interesting books about general behaviour and training . They're not boring !

Sarah Whiteheads , Clever dog and David Ryan's Dog Secrets (what your dog wishes you knew)

For more in depth reading there Canine Body language by Brenda Aloff and How Dog learn by Burch and Baily.

 

[leashedForLife]

.

I disagree that the sole agreement between 2 trainers will be that a 3rd is doing it wrong. that’s a cute tag-line, but it’s not reality.

I know fellow trainers, members of the APDT-Ireland, APDT-uk, & APDT-Aus - i’ve discussed cases with all of them, over the years, & we all agree on tools & techniques.

There are many, many well-known behaviorists & trainers who have global reputations for humane & effective training, & all of my peers and myself refer clients & APOs to them, constantly.

A few of them, in no particular order:
Trisha McConnell / Patricia, who recently retired from the seminar & workshop circuit; she’s a CAAB, the specialist ranked one step below a veterinary behaviorist. Her website, End of My Leash, is excellent reading, & she has short, simple, goof-proof DIY books on multiple problem behaviors.
I’ve used them as loaners & even give-aways for clients who are coping with chronic issues, such as sep-anx or timidity.

Jean Donaldson, another CAAB, is a leading light in humane, science-based dog training. She enjoys a global reputation as an instructor, & has mentored many of the leading dog trainers in the USA. Her books, articles, website, UTube videos, workshops, etc, are all available to the public; anyone can learn whatever they would like, from the knowledge she shares.

A vet-behaviorist is Board-certified in animal behavior as a specialty, after a minimum of 3 years additional study specific to behavior under the supervision of an established DVAB, subsequent to getting their Doctorate in Vet-Med, and at least ONE YEAR of successful work in a veterinary practice, PRIOR to beginning their Behavior studies.
So any DVAB in America has “wasted” an extra 5 years, on average, to achieve that Diplomate, & passed a rigorous 2-day exam to prove their knowledge.
Dr Karen Overall is on the faculty of the University of Penna in Phila., PA; she’s the founder & current editor of the Journal of Applied Animal Behavior , which publishes peer-reviewed articles on recent research in behavior. She’s a staunch advocate of low-stress handling in vet-medicine, a powerful voice for positive reinforcement in training & B-Mod, & a vocal opponent of shock collars & other common aversive tools.
Dr Overall is the closest thing I personally have to a living saint. // I refer APOs & fellow trainers to her articles, UTube clips, & especially to her clinical protocols on practically a daily basis.

Dr Nicolas Dodman is another DVAB.
My sole disagreement with him is that he holds that there are SOME specific cases in which “shock may be useful” for B-Mod... but other than that one sore point, I can heartily recommend his books, articles, seminars, etc.

Dr Sophia Yin, also a DVAB, sadly died much too young; she was an ardent promotor of low-stress handling by vets, vet techs, trainers, groomers, & other pet professionals - but her wisdom is available to anyone who’d like to learn.
Her UTube clips are undeniable proof that clicker-training, especially as used in B-Mod, is very user-friendly & forgiving, LOL - her knowledge of theory was enormous, but her timing was terrible, yet the dogs she works with clearly improve in real time.
Since her death, other vets have taken up the cause for fear-free handling at medical visits.


There are also fellow trainers around the world that i view as peers, & I would unhesitatingly refer anyone in need to them for help. Leonard Cecil AKA “Buzz” is just one of the many; he’s in Europe. Emily Larlham, AKA KikoPup of UTube fame, is another; she relocated to Europe a few years back, but now she’s back in the USA, in San Diego.
Pat Miller, in Maryland. Sue AIlsby, in Canada. Anne Rogers & Bev Truss, both in Ireland, both personal friends.

Every person on this page is someone that, if i were ill or injured & could not care for my current puppy for weeks or months, I would trust them to rear my pup until i was back on my feet.
GREATER LOVE THAN THAT HATH NO TRAINER. A pup’s first year creates the dog they will become, for the rest of their lives.

The trainers that i disagree with, all use tools or methods that are banned in many countries, or are frowned upon as counter-productive or unnecessary, by reputable professionals.
Yes, some of them are household names - but fame is no warranty of ethics or knowledge. *shrug*

- terry

.

 

[JudyN]

It wasn't meant to be taken literally, LfL....