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Dogs behaving badly

Discussion in 'General Dog Forum' started by Josie, Feb 12, 2019.

  1. Josie

    Josie Administrator Administrator Registered

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    has anyone else been watching this?

    Currently watching it and there is a Labrador called Lucy who is obsessed with food. I’ve never seen anything like it! It’s sad really because she is far too powerful for her owner.
     
  2. Mayblossom

    Mayblossom Well-Known Member Registered

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    I’ve been watching it every week Josie ( only cos I think Graeme is lovely :rolleyes:) :D
    How old was that lady with Lucy? Really worrying seeing her being dragged about, she was such a tiny lady! Hope all is still good with her and Lucy !
     
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  3. JoanneF

    JoanneF Well-Known Member Registered

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    I haven't been watching it as I have come across Graeme Hall before and my tv is too expensive to risk me throwing things at it when he spouts his nonsense. The man is a charlatan whose so called qualification can be bought on line. The Dogs Trust, Battersea, the APDT and another organisation that I can't remember offhand have written to Channel 5 voicing their concerns over his methods, and other behaviourists in the areas he has been working in are having to pick up the fallout of the damage he has done to the dogs he has been working with.
     
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  4. Mayblossom

    Mayblossom Well-Known Member Registered

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    :D:D:D You can always buy a new telly :D:D:D
    I do wonder if all these dogs are “cured” or they revert back after the cameras have left;) next week looks interesting :p
     
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  5. Mad Murphy

    Mad Murphy Well-Known Member Registered

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    Im guessing this is ITV which we dont get but this show sounds like many before such as " the uks worst behaved pet"where people seem to get some kind of pleasure from having a badly behaved pet. I wonder if these shows do any real good in the long run.
     
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  6. JoanneF

    JoanneF Well-Known Member Registered

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    No, it's where a 'behaviourist' appears to 'resolve' behavioural issues in a very short time on tv. But as with so many of these shows, the long slow process of behaviour modification makes poor tv (rightly so) so his methods are quick and dirty and the dogs shut down. Disclaimer - I watched other programmes by this trainer, I'm not watching this one but I do understand from talking to others that he hasn't improved.
     
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  7. Josie

    Josie Administrator Administrator Registered

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    I’ve not heard of this behaviourist before and personally I didn’t see him do anything on the programme that was untoward. I’ve just found this online but I’m guessing this is from people that have encountered him on other programmes??


    990E087F-895E-4FD4-AF6A-3BE39A4D07F9.png
     
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  8. Josie

    Josie Administrator Administrator Registered

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    They went back a few weeks later but I guess you don’t truly know what’s happened! I can’t see her getting over her addiction for food that easily! Ha
     
  9. Mayblossom

    Mayblossom Well-Known Member Registered

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    Me neither Josie, all very staged for the camera ;) why leave all that food where the dog could easily reach it? I know they think it makes good television but did that dog really eat that roll all in one gulp! :eek: and who puts a whole roast chicken outside :D:D that dog was obsessed ! Poor lady was strong enough to cope with her :(
     
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  10. Josie

    Josie Administrator Administrator Registered

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    Yes lots of staged things with the food. Maybe don’t put the battenburgs on the edge of the table! Although maybe they were just trying to show the audience what she would do in that scenario which is fair enough I guess.
    Dennis’s brother got the naughty food gene. He even managed to get into the Christmas stockings and eat chocolate orange and that’s aged 11 so he’s never grown out of it! Where as we could go out and leave a cooked chicken on the side and Den wouldn’t touch it :rolleyes:
     
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  11. JoanneF

    JoanneF Well-Known Member Registered

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    I have just been chatting to friends about tonight's episode. Apparently a lab was able to access a cooked chicken in the kitchen - there was a baby gate at the doorway that was left open. That to me suggests it was staged, and risking the dog's life (cooked chicken bones) was apparently considered worth it. The dog apparently was overweight and the owner was encouraged to tug the lead to keep it moving - no suggestion of joint pain possibly being the cause. He wanted the owner to use praise rather than food rewards - for such a food driven dog, this makes little sense to me. Why not use the most powerful tool at your disposal (food, from the dog's daily allowance) to make stronger associations and frankly, easier progress?

    Also another dog was apparently forced to 'face its fears' and it shut down because he/she was flooded. You will likely have heard of fight or flight as a defence strategy; we now talk about fight, flight or freeze and this dog apparently was in freeze - he/she was put in close proximity to another dog and remained quiet NOT because everything was ok, but because he/she was going into freeze - think of rabbit in the headlights, not able to function. My (very good behaviourist) friend said this could be seen in the dog's avoidance signals in his/her body language. And this sums up the problem. People see what looks like results but in fact are dogs that are in the process of doing whatever they can to stop these things happening to them. And the average pet owner doesn't see the difference. It's not the fault of the APO, but programmes like this make it look like these are good techniques to try out at home so a lot of dogs, outside the ones on the programme, will suffer. Channel 5 either doesn't know or doesn't care that he is giving people such awful advice, they only want viewing numbers and advertising revenue, they don't care about the fallout.

    Rant over.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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  12. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    .

    Gee willikers, Mr Wilson!... :p
    that shinola sounds a whole lot like our old buddy, the Dawg Wrassler. :rolleyes: Apparently Graeme Hall is yet another numpty who spouts nifty-sounding nonsense, which the gullible public absorb like sponges.
    What could possibly go wrong?... :eek: A lot.

    I found it incredibly difficult to convince pet-owners [& even in some cases, other trainers] that CM / DW was a con-man who knew very little about dogs - not their natural behaviors, not their body language or social signals, definitely ignorant of HOW TO TRAIN or teach any desired behavior, whether on cue or just as a consistent default [manners].

    Flooding a dog with a known issue is always counterproductive, & is also extremely stressful for that dog; it only sets them back even further. :(
    And all that staged stuff? - just fodder for the DramaLlama, which they use to spin their verbal drivel - kinda like Rumplestiltskin, but he spun straw into gold, while these boobies spin ordinary dog behavior into conspiracy theories & “dumbinance” displays. :D

    YOUR DOG IS TRYING TO TAKE OVER... yeah, right.
    Who has the car keys, Amazon & Chewy accounts, thumbs to open bags & cans with, & credit / debit card? - clue: not the dog. ;)

    - terry

    .
     
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  13. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    I'm 100% with @JoanneF on this - again, I haven't watched the programme because I know it will wind me up, but I've read about it, and about the subsequent complaints.

    Really - you want to teach a dog not to steal food so you put a roast chicken on the side? (Of course it would have been a set-up.) That is going to strongly REINFORCE the unwanted behaviour, as well as endangering the dog. No decent trainer would ever set up a dog to fail.

    There's a blog post from a qualified behaviourist about the programme here for anyone who's interested: https://www.thecanineconsultants.co.uk/blog/tv-dog-trainers-aren-t-magicians
    And Part 2 here: https://www.thecanineconsultants.co.uk/blog/tv-dog-trainers-part-2-wwyd
     
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  14. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    Oh, and Part 3 here, though you may need to be on Facebook to read it: Dogs Behaving (very) Badly part 3 | Facebook (I expect it'll appear on the website linked to above soon.)

    Extract re the pulling lab:

    Graeme advised the owner to give a sharp tug on the lead and say no and keep moving, which appeared to work. He told the owner to swap treats for praise as that would give the dog more affection and she would be rewarded for good behaviour by praise... Food is a very effective reinforcer, and this dog was food motivated - food is a primary reinforcer ie, it falls into the category of things you need do nothing to, to make them reinforcing, because they are something the animal NEEDS to survive. Praise is at best a secondary reinforcer...

    At no point does Graeme ask if this dog has had a veterinary check up lately - it is quite likely that her refusal to move at some points is actually down to pain. As an overweight labrador she likely already has arthritic changes and labs are prone to both elbow and hip problems. Her owner constantly dragging her by her neck is likely to exacerbate any pain she has...

    For walkies, I would have given the owner a treat pouch and instructed her in teaching a loose lead walk with positive reinforcement for being in place beside her, lots of direction changes, pace changes and chucking in random cues for sit, down etc, to keep the walk interesting and keep focus on the owner. Changing the use of treats from ‘bribe when the unwanted behaviour is already happening’ to ‘reinforcement for compliance’ would have made a huge difference. Simply switching the owner from ‘wait for the bad thing to happen then try to deal with it’ to ‘be pro-active and engage the dog in good behaviour that is rewarded BEFORE unwanted behaviour can occur’ is what actually needed to happen. I suspect this dog was simply tired and worn down by the time the temptation alley was filmed and that we saw only a tiny portion of the relentless walking about done - and that is why the seemingly ‘miraculous’ cure. I would bet this dog is back to lunging for food as soon as something sufficiently tempting is put in her way, and she remembers she DOES out weigh her owner and can pull her over.*
     
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  15. Mayblossom

    Mayblossom Well-Known Member Registered

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    There’s no way that dog was cured of lunging for food ! It was far too obsessed ! They must have let it eat 3 battenburg cakes as there were 4 on the plate ( right on the edge of the table :eek:) and only one when Graeme ate one :D ok so it was all done for the programme but irresponsible if they did let it eat them....and the chicken..bones and all :eek:
     
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  16. Mad Murphy

    Mad Murphy Well-Known Member Registered

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    Based on all your reports I wont bother even looking it up.
    I hate these kind of shows that promise a quick fix,(dogs,children, health) the viewer has no idea whats going on behind the cameras and thats often what really counts. The big problem is it leads to totally unrealistic expectations from Joe Public about how to fix their dog and its problems which 9 times out of 10 and owner behaviour problems not dog ones.
     
  17. Biker John

    Biker John Well-Known Member Registered

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    Totally agree with most of the comments, I have not watched the programme so can not say anything actually about it, but the idea that a 'problem' can be quickly solved is silly. I am all for rewarding behaviour I want and I find it gets both the dog and I in a happy spot. As to stopping a food thief, Whippets are well known as thieves and Folly is no different so its simple, if I have to leave food its put somewhere she cant get at, inside the micro wave is my normal.
     
  18. Nanny71

    Nanny71 Well-Known Member Registered

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    I have watched two episodes of this programme. Will catch up with them some time
    My husband insists I only watch because it makes Dudley look so good
    Reading all the comments has made me realise how little I know about dog behaviour. He is three now and I am still worried I will do something wrong and cause psychological damage.

    Dealing with his physical needs is easier. Feed him, walk him, play with him etc but what about his actual needs.
     
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  19. JoanneF

    JoanneF Well-Known Member Registered

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    Please try not to worry. Dudley sounds like a well balanced little guy, and a lot of the criticism over this programme is because he is taking dogs who already have a problem and he is making it worse rather than better. And, the whole idea behind these shows is to draw people in; so they are very slick and skilled in showing only what they want you to see - which is why it is appealing to people, even experienced pet owners.
     
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  20. Nanny71

    Nanny71 Well-Known Member Registered

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    Thank you.
     

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