Electric Shock Collars

[galty]

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i thought this quote from hansard was particularly interesting :thumbsup: .
Electric shock collars teach an animal to respond out of fear rather than an actual willingness to obey. They do not address underlying behavioural problems, and may leave the causes of barking or aggression suppressed. Training a dog on the basis of fear poses the risk that at some time in the future it may turn on its owner or, God forbid, on an innocent child.

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Sorry Kris

If you have to quote an MP you have no grasp of the situation, you just grab points to justify your limited knowlage of the situation.

This is one quote from one MP but to your detrement to dont put the counter aguments, maybe there wernt any but as you did not give a link ??????

I have a limited knowledg of these shock collars so would not make a judgement on what an MP says but what others who have used them say.

 

[kita]

I have not used a shock collar and never will.

I have never knifed anyone or shot anyone with a gun - but I can judge people who have!!

I have seen the damage done by these collars.

The Kennel Club and numerous other very educated people (along with many charities) want these collars banned.

What about the dogs who have been put to sleep BECAUSE of the use of these collars? Many dogs are suffering both mentally and physically through the use of these collars.

If a farmer says he shot a dog because it was worrying his sheep, who is going to tell him he is wrong? Basically it is your word (as owner of the dog) against his - unless you are lucky enough to have a witness, and what is the point anyhow if your dog is dead? In the case I mentioned the owner tried to take the farmer on legally - he even took it to the local paper. He got nowhere. He did however have the terrible memories of carrying his dog to the car and driving to the vet and having his dog die in his arms in terrible pain. A shock collar would not have saved his dog.

 

[chelynnah]

I've seen deaths and injuries caused by most training aids that are out there. These happen when people use them incorrectly! The aids are not the problem, the people using them incorrectly are.

But going by your logic, since I've seen the most horrendous injuries caused by a regular buckle collar - should these be banned as well?

Wendy

 

[galty]

Edited

sorry

 

[galty]

I have not used a shock collar and never will.
I have never knifed anyone or shot anyone with a gun - but I can judge people who have!!

I have seen the damage done by these collars.

The Kennel Club and numerous other very educated people (along with many charities) want these collars banned.

What about the dogs who have been put to sleep BECAUSE of the use of these collars?  Many dogs are suffering both mentally and physically through the use of these collars.

If a farmer says he shot a dog because it was worrying his sheep, who is going to tell him he is wrong?  Basically it is your word (as owner of the dog) against his - unless you are lucky enough to have a witness, and what is the point anyhow if your dog is dead?  In the case I mentioned the owner tried to take the farmer on legally - he even took it to the local paper.  He got nowhere.  He did however have the terrible memories of carrying his dog to the car and driving to the vet and having his dog die in his arms in terrible pain.  A shock collar would not have saved his dog.

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I just wonder if it Just might have saved the dog

 

[CHRIS DOYLE]

I have not used a shock collar and never will.
I have never knifed anyone or shot anyone with a gun - but I can judge people who have!!

I have seen the damage done by these collars.

The Kennel Club and numerous other very educated people (along with many charities) want these collars banned.

What about the dogs who have been put to sleep BECAUSE of the use of these collars?  Many dogs are suffering both mentally and physically through the use of these collars.

If a farmer says he shot a dog because it was worrying his sheep, who is going to tell him he is wrong?  Basically it is your word (as owner of the dog) against his - unless you are lucky enough to have a witness, and what is the point anyhow if your dog is dead?  In the case I mentioned the owner tried to take the farmer on legally - he even took it to the local paper.  He got nowhere.  He did however have the terrible memories of carrying his dog to the car and driving to the vet and having his dog die in his arms in terrible pain.  A shock collar would not have saved his dog.

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I've read all the posts

on this subject with great interest and felt my view sway one way and then the other as I read. I have a bitch that is apt to run off into keepered woodland should she get the chance and due to my inability to recall her felt that there may be a use for said collars in her case. I am concerned however over the perceived mental/physical aspects and would not wish to risk the possibility of such an outcome.I will as a consequence continue to use the lead when I would have preferred to release. This problem is my fault and not the dogs as I have not instilled the discipline that would have prevented this problem earlier

With regard to my quoting the above,Kita has summed up my view particularly

the bit about (i paraphrase) whats the point of complaining to authorities when your dog has been shot. Pretty pointless. For my part(as an aside) if anyone shot my dog I would not be reporting the shooter, I would be dispensing summary justice as the heat of the moment dictated. Of that there is absolutely no doubt :thumbsup:

 

[beaker]

something that i have been concidering but will have to save up my pennies to buy..

http://www.companyofanimals.co.uk/masterplus.php

 

[FeeFee]

The Kennel Club's view on shock collars:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1236/23/5/3

The Dogs Trust View:

http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/information/po...ollars/text.htm

Gwen Bailey's view:

http://www.dogbehaviour.com/articles/dogs/shockcollars.htm

The APDT's stance:

http://www.apdt.co.uk/press.htm

I could go on - the point being that I can't find one single reputable dog organisation or individual trainer who doesn't want these things banned.

 

[devo12]

so having never used a shock collar or know anyone that has i was quite interested in the comments, a high percentage of people pontificating and producing endless google pap and a post from what i can gather (as i dont know him) a genuine "dog man" who freely admits he used to have a closed mind to these collars, then uses one as a last resort and changes his views

mmmm its a hard choice

 

[kris]

i thought this quote from hansard was particularly interesting :thumbsup: .
Electric shock collars teach an animal to respond out of fear rather than an actual willingness to obey. They do not address underlying behavioural problems, and may leave the causes of barking or aggression suppressed. Training a dog on the basis of fear poses the risk that at some time in the future it may turn on its owner or, God forbid, on an innocent child.

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Sorry Kris

If you have to quote an MP you have no grasp of the situation, you just grab points to justify your limited knowlage of the situation.

This is one quote from one MP but to your detrement to dont put the counter aguments, maybe there wernt any but as you did not give a link ??????

(i did give the link,its there for all to see,the quote i made was by one M.P. who was taking part in this debate.maybe if youd bothered to read it youd have seen that?)I have a limited knowledg of these shock collars so would not make a judgement on what an MP says but what others who have used them say.

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please dont apologise.youre entitled to your view. :thumbsup: im not just grabbing points to justify my limited knowledge. :lol: before you make any more judgements it might interest you to know that in my above statement i havent made it clear whether i am for or againt these collars.so before you make your statements maybe you ought to ask me what exactly my views are before you start to dispute my qualifications?(of which you know nothing) the reason i didnt make any counter arguments is because ive just seen the arguments pro using these collars and because im someone who loves to play devils advocate in order to find out the opposing persons views and reasons why their statements are made and what professsional bodies are being quoted to back them up.so far i havent seen any professional bodies ie professional training organisations,respected dog trainers,recognised animal welfare organisations etc etc who are advocating the use of these devices.however another member has very kindly posted links to a good number of professional bodies who are against these devices.to me that speaks for itself. by the way before an M.P. stands up in the house to make their views on a subject known they usually do quite bit of research and indeed employ professional researchers who find out the facts not the rumours and not the one sided biased views.they then present the facts and the opinions of any professional respected bodies opinions on the subject in question so i wouldnt be too quick to judge an M.P.'s opinions as having no grasp of the situation.most M.P.'s are usually quite quick to grasp a situation they have to be thats the nature of their job.a number of them are/have been successful professional people.they are there to represent us, the people. (a job sadly that they dont always do)

 

[kris]

I have not used a shock collar and never will.
I have never knifed anyone or shot anyone with a gun - but I can judge people who have!!

I have seen the damage done by these collars.

The Kennel Club and numerous other very educated people (along with many charities) want these collars banned.

What about the dogs who have been put to sleep BECAUSE of the use of these collars?  Many dogs are suffering both mentally and physically through the use of these collars.

If a farmer says he shot a dog because it was worrying his sheep, who is going to tell him he is wrong?  Basically it is your word (as owner of the dog) against his - unless you are lucky enough to have a witness, and what is the point anyhow if your dog is dead?  In the case I mentioned the owner tried to take the farmer on legally - he even took it to the local paper.  He got nowhere.  He did however have the terrible memories of carrying his dog to the car and driving to the vet and having his dog die in his arms in terrible pain.  A shock collar would not have saved his dog.

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the point is that if more people prosecuted farmers and landowners who have killed their pets needlessly then maybe they would be more careful about shooting other peoples pets knowing that they could be held responsible for their actions.im not saying a farmer shouldnt shoot a dog that is worrying sheep.im saying that if a person is on a farmers land on a public footpath and he shoots their dog when theres no sheep around and no danger to any sheep then he should be treated the same as any private citizen who took it into their heads to shoot a dog for no good reason.this happens a lot more than people are aware and most farmers arent held accountable.the ones who are prosecuted and are fined,given community service,made to pay all court costs and have their gun licences taken away from them dont make the headlines.just cos a guy owns a bit of land doesnt give him the right to kill anyones pet without good reason

 

[mally]

I have not used a shock collar and never will.
I have never knifed anyone or shot anyone with a gun - but I can judge people who have!!

I have seen the damage done by these collars.

The Kennel Club and numerous other very educated people (along with many charities) want these collars banned.

What about the dogs who have been put to sleep BECAUSE of the use of these collars?  Many dogs are suffering both mentally and physically through the use of these collars.

If a farmer says he shot a dog because it was worrying his sheep, who is going to tell him he is wrong?  Basically it is your word (as owner of the dog) against his - unless you are lucky enough to have a witness, and what is the point anyhow if your dog is dead?  In the case I mentioned the owner tried to take the farmer on legally - he even took it to the local paper.  He got nowhere.  He did however have the terrible memories of carrying his dog to the car and driving to the vet and having his dog die in his arms in terrible pain.  A shock collar would not have saved his dog.

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I've read all the posts

on this subject with great interest and felt my view sway one way and then the other as I read. I have a bitch that is apt to run off into keepered woodland should she get the chance and due to my inability to recall her felt that there may be a use for said collars in her case. I am concerned however over the perceived mental/physical aspects and would not wish to risk the possibility of such an outcome.I will as a consequence continue to use the lead when I would have preferred to release. This problem is my fault and not the dogs as I have not instilled the discipline that would have prevented this problem earlier

With regard to my quoting the above,Kita has summed up my view particularly

the bit about (i paraphrase) whats the point of complaining to authorities when your dog has been shot. Pretty pointless. For my part(as an aside) if anyone shot my dog I would not be reporting the shooter, I would be dispensing summary justice as the heat of the moment dictated. Of that there is absolutely no doubt :thumbsup:

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Well Lampy thats exactly what my Tess was doing,and if you do decide you would like to give the electric collar a please don't buy one, i'll send mine down with Lakey for a fortnight as imo thats all you'll need it for as if you use it in the correct way they do have very good results. :thumbsup:

 

[CHRIS DOYLE]

I don't want to add all those quotes. To Mally, I would certainly be willing to think more about it as my dog(s) miss out on a lot of free running due to one running off and leading at least one of the others with her. Lost one for 5 hours some recent months ago and it is worrying particularly as not only do I have the gamekeeper aspect to consider(I have no evidence that locally they shoot dogs) but snares and traps conjures up all sorts of nightmare scenarios whilst they are absent from me. :thumbsup:

 

[Seraphina]

Before anybody makes a judgement on these collars they should borrow one, put it around their wrist and try what it feels like. Hopefuly, at the lowest setting it would be just a light tingle and the highest setting would not be enough to cause serious damage.

In any case these collars are only a TRAINING aid of a last resort, and should only be used in the hands of VERY experienced person, they should not be freely available to just anybody.

 

[mally]

Before anybody makes a judgement on these collars they should borrow one, put it around their wrist and try what it feels like.  Hopefuly, at the lowest setting it would be just a light tingle and the highest setting would not be enough to cause serious damage.
In any case these collars are only a TRAINING aid of a last resort, and should only be used in the hands of VERY experienced person, they should not be freely available to just anybody.

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I couldn't agree more :thumbsup:

I've tried the collar i have on myself right up to the middle setting just so i know what the dog would be feeling. Although i've only had to use it at it's lowest intensity on Tess

 

[quintessence]

Surely electric shock collars hurt the dog, if they didn't then they wouldn't work.

 

[Caravan Monster]

Kris-

I' m sorry, but I' ve got to reply to your earlier post; I do not intend this personally- similar views are held by the majority of dog owners. The statutes quoted are not carte blanche to go and do what the hell you like on someone else' s land. Rights of way are normally obvious and you are entitled to use the footpath, bridleway or byway itself, not the field surrounding it. Show the same respect for other peoples' property that you would expect, or like them to have for your own. Most of us are guilty of letting our dogs have a good run around where they shouldn' t, but this is not a right: be happy to get away with it without anyone knowing.

Perhaps try subtly approaching nearby landowners for permission to run dogs on their land. You might be pleasantly surprised.

If you didn' t already know, as owners of running dogs, we will be treated with utmost suspicion by those posessed of countryside "wisdom" and our hounds are regarded as most likely sheep chasers. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of this view, a farmer is more likely to reach for the rifle if he/ she sees lurchers running around their fields than any other type of dog. I don' t care if the farmer gets fined- it does not replace your dog, or the time, care, love and attention lavished upon it.

I am not a farmer or land owner of any sort, although I do sometimes work on farmland, and so have a good idea of what awkward b###ers some farmers are. I also get to see the outstanding stupidity of some dog walkers who regard the fields as a sort of public park and look at you in amazement when you ask them to leash up their dogs up because we are felling trees or operating machines nearby.

Sorry this has nothing to do with electric collars- happily, I have no experience and so cannot comment, but I really felt that this point should be made.

 

[Seraphina]

Surely electric shock collars hurt the dog, if they didn't then they wouldn't work.

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So I do not think the collar has to cause real pain for the dog to dislike it, bit of discomfort is enough.

When the current is low it just gives tingling sensation, not pain, when the current becomes higher the tingling becomes uncomfortable, causing muscles to twitch slightly, only at much higher current would become painful and dangerous. I would hope that the collars would not have that capacity. But each individual has different tolerance, and dogs with thick hair would feel less than Whippet.

Many years ago friend of mine bought a machine that gave her slight ellectic shocks and supposedly tigthen up her muscles. You know that sort of things; "how to get a body of a suppermodel without really trying". She said it just tickles and she spent hours reading books, stuffing her face with chocolates, while this thing kept twitching her muscles. She said to me it is quite nice, just bit ticklish. I tried it on and hated the sensation. It did not hurt, but it was very uncomfortable - maybe I did not have enough fat insulation

 

[OEH]

Just felt that I had to say that I feel whippets and other sight hounds live for running so I feel it is crueler to keep your sight hound on the lead because it runs off than to give it a couple of shocks so that it can be free to run for the rest of its life.

My Esme was a real devil for running off, nothing scared her and nothing would make her listen to me. Until one day she ran off and got lost for 3 hours. This really terrified her and she never lets me out of her sight now, in fact she's become rather clingy.

I expect she found this experience far more terrifying than she would have found a couple of shocks from a collar. She panted and cried and panicked for hours after, and I suspect if you ask anyone who has used a shock collar correctly you will find that they didn't behave like that.

 

[kris]

Kris-
I' m sorry, but I' ve got to reply to your earlier post; I do not intend this personally- similar views are held by the majority of dog owners. The statutes quoted are not carte blanche to go and do what the hell you like on someone else' s land. Rights of way are normally obvious and you are entitled to use the footpath, bridleway or byway itself, not the field surrounding it. Show the same respect for other peoples' property that you would expect, or like them to have for your own. Most of us are guilty of letting our dogs have a good run around where they shouldn' t, but this is not a right: be happy to get away with it without anyone knowing.

i never said anyone had any rights to trespass on anyones land.what im saying is that a farmer doesnt have the right to shoot a dog just cos its on his land.the dog has to be worrying sheep or about to worry sheep.i never trespass on anyones land.ive been physically attacked by a farmer for walking on a public road with my 5 yr old daughter cos he happened to be herding his pigs on this public road going down to his farm.(my 5 yr old was absolutely terrified and was screaming,i made a complaint to the police who basically did nothing.they knew the man was slightly deranged and accepted that this sort of behaviour from him was par for the course.i was only a young woman when this happened  but if it happened now id insist the police arrested him and charged him with assault,threatening behaviour etc etc)if this man had a gun with him i daresay hed have used it on me,my daughter and my dog.he was a total nutcase and a lot of farmers ive met seem to think they have carte blance to do whatever they like.remember the guy who shot the gipsy lad ?that gipsy was actually leaving his property when the farmer shot him.thats why he was found guilty.its just another example of this mentality they have that they are above the law.Perhaps try subtly approaching nearby landowners for permission to run dogs on their land. You might be pleasantly surprised.

i never go on any farmers land.i have a wildlife park at the back of my house and take my dogs there ot to the beach or to any other place where i wont meet any lunatics walking around with guns who think they can shoot at my dogs willy nilly.

If you didn' t already know, as owners of running dogs, we will be treated with utmost suspicion by those posessed of countryside "wisdom" and our hounds are regarded as most likely sheep chasers. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of this view, a farmer is more likely to reach for the rifle if he/ she sees lurchers running around their fields than any other type of dog. I don' t care if the farmer gets fined- it does not replace your dog, or the time, care, love and attention lavished upon it.

i agree completely.it doesnt replace your pet.but again what im saying is that a farmer doesnt have the automatic right to shoot a dog for nothing,just cos he feels like it and cos he wants to shoot any dog on his land.if more farmers were prosecuted then they might think twice about doing this

I am not a farmer or land owner of any sort, although I do sometimes work on farmland, and so have a good idea of what awkward b###ers some farmers are. I also get to see the outstanding stupidity of some dog walkers who regard the fields as a sort of public park and look at you in amazement when you ask them to leash up their dogs up because we are felling trees or operating machines nearby.

Sorry this has nothing to do with electric collars- happily, I have no experience and so cannot comment, but I really felt that this point should be made.

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its ok to go off topic for a bit i think youve made some valid points. :thumbsup: