Exposure/flooding to triggers

[Kayak]

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What does everyone think of it? I hear good and bad things. Clover is nervy around loud cars and big lorries, understandably, so I’m planning to take her to the supermarkets on delivery day to teach her they’re not going to get her.

 

[JoanneF]

I think if you do it gently - ie keep her at a distance where she is aware but not anxious; and work on reducing the distance then fine. But if you throw her in at the deep end so to speak, it's likely to reinforce in her mind that they are scary. I like the analogy that someone with a fear of snakes won't get over it by being thrown in a snake pit.

Remember the three Ds - distance, duration, distraction. Distance as above. Duration - she might be ok for a minute but not five. Distraction - how big or noisy the vehicle is. She might be ok with a small van but not an articulated lorry.

 

[Josie]

I walk a vizsla who is very nervous around big veichles. I think this fear is from not having enough exposure as a pup. She’s nervous of all sorts! She’s only 1 though so hoping it improves.

I have been doing more road walking with her and I’ve noticed a big difference by praising her as big veichles go past. She’s still not keen on double deckers but I don’t blame her!

 

[Ari_RR]

Clover is nervy around loud cars and big lorries, understandably, so I’m planning to take her to the supermarkets on delivery day to teach her they’re not going to get her.

Sounds horrible to me, to be honest.
How can this possibly work?
If you were afraid of spiders, would throwing you into a terrarium really cure the fear?
More likely - this would put you under a huge stress, and teach you not to trust the person who did this to you...

When the panic reaches a certain level, the dog may shut down. Freeze, essentially so scared that it can’t even react. Sadly, some folks interpret this state of shut down as “no longer afraid”.

I would go the long way, slowly, one step at a time.....

 

[Dibbythedog]

It can be difficult with pups because you are told to socialise them etc and expose them to different experience but you have to be careful not to over do it with sensitive ones because it can have the opposite effect .
I wouldnt flood her , try a road nearer you that isn't to busy , feed her with treats and keep it short and sweet , dont over do it or over face her ,at any one time..

 

[JudyN]

I'd sit at a fair distance from a busy location, far enough that she's comfortable, and give her a treat every time a noisy car or lorry goes past, until she's happy to see them. Then reduce distance.

Jasper doesn't like large lorries, particularly dustbin lorries. I've not flooded him and I've not forced him to walk past them. I let him decide what he's comfortable with even if it means we end up walking in a different direction. Now, I can almost see him thinking, 'OK, I can cope with this,' because he knows if it all becomes too much he can move away. If he does walk past the lorry, he gets praise and a reward for being a brave boy.

I can so relate to the spider analogy. If I knew I was going to be forced into close contact with a spider I'd be terrified from the start. If I could stand in the doorway and see how close I could go? Who knows?

 

[Caro Perry]

I can so relate to the spider analogy. If I knew I was going to be forced into close contact with a spider I'd be terrified from the start. If I could stand in the doorway and see how close I could go? Who knows?

About 20ft and I still wouldn't be happy. I remember a pub in Farnham had a tarantula in a tank by the front door. I went in once, turned round and came straight back out again. I never set foot in there again.

I can just about tolerate a money spider but anything larger and I'm out of there (I blame being traumatised by meeting a large bird eating spider, the size of a man's hand in the loo late one night)

 

[JudyN]

I remember a pub in Farnham had a tarantula in a tank by the front door. I went in once, turned round and came straight back out again. I never set foot in there again.

I'd be the same! It would be there the whole time, and you'd have to keep an eye on it just to make sure... If you turned your back you'd feel it watching you and planning... I was thinking of a time I went into the spider area of a zoo. I started at the far side and took a step forward... and another... But I was in control, even though I couldn't relax until I was outa there.

 

[Dibbythedog]

I can just about tolerate a money spider but anything larger and I'm out of there (I blame being traumatised by meeting a large bird eating spider, the size of a man's hand in the loo late one night)

What was it doing in your loo.

Im not so good in lifts or enclosed spaces like public toilets that are totally enclosed.
That feeling of panic is an absolutely awful feeling .
I once tried to claw the lift doors open , people were asking me if I was alright and I couldn't speak.

 

[Caro Perry]

What was it doing in your loo.

Just hanging out!! My father was sent on a sabbatical to Sri Lanka so we spent a couple of years out there. I wasn't madly keen on the tree frogs either.....

 

[Dibbythedog]

Just hanging out!! My father was sent on a sabbatical to Sri Lanka so we spent a couple of years out there. I wasn't madly keen on the tree frogs either.....

oh I see. Im not mad on spiders but I don't mind frogs.

 

[Ari_RR]

I hear good and bad things.

Not sure whether I have heard good and bad things about this kind of flooding. I suspect that if one looks hard enough, he will find people saying good and bad things just about anything.
But I am sure that I have not seen a single reference which would explain how this approach can even theoretically work for the benefit of the dog.
I can consider something that can work in theory, and see if this something can be applicable to my specific dog and environment, in practice.
But this one I can't even hypothetically try on. To me, there is just nothing here that would make sense.

 

[Kayak]

Thanks for the responses, very informative.

In theory, unless I let a lorry hurt her she can only learn from the experience that there’s nothing to be scared of.

I tackled fear based dog reactivity/aggression in a similar way using a very vague version of the BAT method in a controlled environment where instead of staying below threshold I’d take Kay over it bit by bit to show her nothings going to happen when we get within reasonable distance of her triggers. It worked with her and she actually understood what I was trying to teach her (that I would defend her) and I’m leaning towards the same kind of exposure and training to get Clover over her fear before she darts under my feet away from a lorry 3 roads over and gets stepped on by me.

The plan is to take Clover to a place where her triggers go, making her calm and praising that, similar to what I did with Kay except less hit and miss, as there’s not much chance a lorry is going to start barking aggressively back and giving Clover something to be scared of LOL.

I don’t see how it can cause more problems if you’re just exposing the dog to scary things in a controlled situation. She’s just going to be kept calm/distracted and praised for not reacting while the lorries drive about. Not sure how that’s going to scare her more than bumping into one unexpectedly on a walk would.

Maybe I am just okay with it as a way of training as Kay worked well being exposed to her triggers in controlled situations. It’s the only way she was able to learn she doesn’t have to defend herself. Clover may benefit from it the same way Kay did is my thinking. Her fear isnt very strong, but she leapt right under my feet because a car revved the other day, and she’s small enough I could do serious damage if I stepped on her. It’s a dangerous reaction for her to have to every day occurrences.

I already distract if possible and praise for any calm behaviour in reference to lorries and loud cars, but praising her for reacting out of fear (which is what she will always do) is only teaching her to react that way each time by the looks of it. It’s next to impossible to distract her once she’s heard or felt the vehicle driving closer, so literally it’s a case of

See lorry > ball out, “clover what’s this?” > basic commands ie sit, look at me to keep her distracted > Clover realises how big/loud vehicle is and reacts out of fear > I praise...she learns it’s good to be scared of lorries.

That’s how it’s gone so far, all I’m seeing is her becoming more fearful and putting herself in danger by darting about by my and other people’s feet.

 

[Caro Perry]

oh I see. Im not mad on spiders but I don't mind frogs.

The tree frogs used to come into my playroom and jump from one wall to the other..... I did tend to scream when one flew past my ear!

 

[Dibbythedog]

Thanks for the responses, very informative.

In theory, unless I let a lorry hurt her she can only learn from the experience that there’s nothing to be scared of.

I tackled fear based dog reactivity/aggression in a similar way using a very vague version of the BAT method in a controlled environment where instead of staying below threshold I’d take Kay over it bit by bit to show her nothings going to happen when we get within reasonable distance of her triggers. It worked with her and she actually understood what I was trying to teach her (that I would defend her) and I’m leaning towards the same kind of exposure and training to get Clover over her fear before she darts under my feet away from a lorry 3 roads over and gets stepped on by me.

The plan is to take Clover to a place where her triggers go, making her calm and praising that, similar to what I did with Kay except less hit and miss, as there’s not much chance a lorry is going to start barking aggressively back and giving Clover something to be scared of LOL.

I don’t see how it can cause more problems if you’re just exposing the dog to scary things in a controlled situation. She’s just going to be kept calm/distracted and praised for not reacting while the lorries drive about. Not sure how that’s going to scare her more than bumping into one unexpectedly on a walk would.

Maybe I am just okay with it as a way of training as Kay worked well being exposed to her triggers in controlled situations. It’s the only way she was able to learn she doesn’t have to defend herself. Clover may benefit from it the same way Kay did is my thinking. Her fear isnt very strong, but she leapt right under my feet because a car revved the other day, and she’s small enough I could do serious damage if I stepped on her. It’s a dangerous reaction for her to have to every day occurrences.

I already distract if possible and praise for any calm behaviour in reference to lorries and loud cars, but praising her for reacting out of fear (which is what she will always do) is only teaching her to react that way each time by the looks of it. It’s next to impossible to distract her once she’s heard or felt the vehicle driving closer, so literally it’s a case of

See lorry > ball out, “clover what’s this?” > basic commands ie sit, look at me to keep her distracted > Clover realises how big/loud vehicle is and reacts out of fear > I praise...she learns it’s good to be scared of lorries.

That’s how it’s gone so far, all I’m seeing is her becoming more fearful and putting herself in danger by darting about by my and other people’s feet.

Nice to get a post explaining with lots of detail.
Theres a lot I could say but its a bit late now so just a couple of points.

If she is that scared then if this were me I wouldn't attempt to get her to sit etc (counter commanding ) I think that's a big ask . If she will take high value treats then I would simply feed her continuously because if you can change the emotion then the behaviour will change .You want to change her emotion from fear which is counter conditioning .
Behaviour is an outward expression of a dogs emotion .
Some dogs are more noise sensitive than others which is a problem.
Startling at a noise is reflexive but desensitisation and counter-conditioning will help

have you tried clicker training at all ?

 

[Ari_RR]

The plan is to take Clover to a place where her triggers go, making her calm and praising that

Yeah, this would work for me too, with one tiny change - keeping her calm instead of making her calm.

I think the difference is in keeping the dog within her comfort zone while exposing to triggers (which is good) vs pushing/forcing her beyond the comfort zone (which is not good, and which is I would think what "flooding" refers to).

Exposing while keeping calm I think means keeping enough distance from the triggers for her to remain within her comfort zone, and keeping exposure short enough for her not to get overwhelmed even at the safe distance.
This sounds like a good plan. Let us know how it goes, good luck.

 

[Kayak]

We do clicker train. It’s effective for command training I’ve found and used it for more complex commands when I was teaching Kay, like her reverse between my legs and backward figure of eight. I’m using it in the same way for Clover, she’s more responsive to verbal praise at the minute but understands the click is marking the behaviour and that a treat will follow. I’m using it to teach “wait” at the minute — I’d completely forgotten how to teach that command until speaking to my mum it’s been so long since I’ve taught the basics lol.

For me the click is just to mark a behaviour quicker and more precisely than my verbal approval, and doesn’t really come in handy in this situation for us because I use the click as a marker of a behaviour or action I want,; and when her reaction is fear I end up not marking anything as I’m not going to actively praise her for a fearful behaviour when my aim is to teach her there’s no need for the fear. And calming down when the lorry has passed is something she does anyway so her fear seems to be more habit now than anything else. She’s not looking around for lorries or being skittish after coming across one, but actually passing it will mean she runs/zig zags/tries to get away 100% of the time.

Passing one lorry on every walk seems to be making her worse as I’m getting no opportunity to praise calm reactions, as they don’t happen. It’s not a controlled environment on a walk. I don’t know when a lorry is going to appear, neither does Clover, I’m not always able to predict when a car is going to rev.

Exposing her in a controlled environment to her triggers is going to mean she encounters a lot of them and that 100% of the ones she encounters cause her no harm. If I do it slowly enough during the session then by the end she will have learned that the loud noise and lorry doesn’t mean anything bad is going to happen — because nothing bad happened. All I would have to do is be calm next to her and stop when she’s stressing until she realises herself that there is no need to be scared and starts offering a genuine calmness that I can praise for. Then we move closer, and repeat the steps.

I think I should have focused more on the “controlled environment” thing in my original post, and maybe not used the phrase “flooding” as it seems to have a negatice association.

This is an extreme personal example. The way I used to introduce Kay to other dogs was in a fenced tennis court. She’d be off lead inside the court, I’d have the strange dog on a lead and would enter the court, Kay would know the dog couldn’t hurt her and wouldn’t react aggressively. Technically she was being flooded. All of her friends were made that way and she had quite a few. The way I introduced her to foster dogs was in the house as she was most comfortable there — I wouldn’t attempt this with a DA dog whose aggression did NOT come from fear, I believe introducing dogs at home only worked for Kay because she was aggressive out of fear and at home she had more confidence. Again, she’d be off lead and the foster would be leashed and held by me. She always accepted and was comfortable around the dogs she was introduced to in a way she understood, even if that way was popularly dangerous and not recommended, while other more popular methods like BAT would result in her becoming more stressed and highly strung even if we were moving backwards every 15 seconds and the trigger wasn’t moving. I had to work with Kay to help her overcome her fears and it actually meant dropping some of the methods and techniques I’d been practising for 5 years prior. “Flooding” her showed her, before her stress levels could rise, that I had it covered and nothing would happen. She’d then meet the dog and realise for herself that it wasn’t going to hurt her. I never actually taught her to like the dogs she was introduced to, I just taught her nothing would happen while I’m there and holding the lead. She then realised herself that nothing happened and the dog wasn’t going to attack her, it was friendly and she could make friends. Then they could both be off lead and play fetch in harmony.

It was successful in spite of being potentially dangerous, and it was only successful because of the level of control we had over the situations and the fact we could anticipate what was about to happen and prepare for it.

And that’s where my idea of “flooding” Clover with lorries comes from. They aren’t going to hurt her, so unless I majorly mess it up there’s not really a way she can come away worse off. She’ll just realise for herself, after having all these loud things she’s scared of around her not causing her harm, that they aren’t so scary. All I have to do is stay calm, stop and sit when she’s spooking, and treat for any calm she offers herself.

I hope I’ve explained well enough. She isn’t a shut down dog and neither was Kay, though Kay was shutting down for the first two years while I used methods that agreed with me instead of her; methods she didn’t understand. I’m still learning about Clover and what language she understands best, which is why I’m interested in all your opinions on this stuff.

I know when a dog is shutting down and I know how to get out of it, so have no fear — if it happens then I’ll fix it and bounce out to a different idea, no big deal

ETA: that’s a really good point about asking her to sit. I will stop that and just allow her to stand or do whatever she feels comfortable with. Really there is no need for her to sit, as the action of sitting doesn’t help her feel safer, and her issue is caused by feeling unsafe.

 

[Dibbythedog]

You know your dogs inside out and have experience and practise so lm sure it will be fine. Good luck.

 

[JudyN]

It does look like we have different understandings of flooding - I think of it as 'Flooding happens when intense feelings, thoughts, or sensations overwhelm your ability to integrate them into the present moment' (random definition from a Google search). It doesn't sound like you're aiming to overwhelm Clover. So I think you're much closer to what others here would suggest than it seemed from your earlier posts Just a few things to pick up on though:

1) It is not possible to reinforce fear by linking it to a positive reward. Give me a tenner every time I show fear of a spider and you won't make me more afraid of spiders. It's possible to reinforce a behaviour that might look fearful, e.g. going 'eek', but I won't be going 'eek' out of fear. I'll say 'eek' while happily turning to you for my tenner. Hence keeping your dog within her comfort zone so there's no 'eek' you might inadvertently reward.

2) Conversely, rewarding calm behaviour doesn't necessarily reward feeling calm. You don't want to train Clover to not show her fears, you want her to not feel the fear in the first place. So I wouldn't focus so much on rewarding the behaviour as linking the trigger with good stuff - it's the sight/sound of a lorry that predicts a treat, not her response to it.

3) Just because a dog - or human - comes out of a situation unharmed physically doesn't mean they will think it was all fine after all. Drop a bucket of spiders on my head and even though I may walk away unharmed, I will now be more terrified of spiders than ever, and more likely to freak out when I see a small one at a distance than I was before. A horrible scary experience is still a horrible scary experience regardless of what happens after. My dog developed a car phobia after OH did an emergency stop and he ended up in the footwell (since filled in with an old dog bed). He was absolutely unharmed, but it took a long time to get him to be happy in the car again.

 

[JoanneF]

Brilliantly put, thanks Judy - but -

You don't want to train Clover to now show her fears

Typo? Should that read "you don't want to train Clover to NOT show her fears"?