Genetics, Health And Breeding?

[~elizabeth~]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

If autoimmune diseases in dogs were simply caused by vaccination, surely they would occur randomly across the breed as most whippets are vaccinated. They don't, there are very distinct hereditary patterns so there has to be an additional genetic component, even if vaccination may be one of the environmental risks (and 'environmental' doesn't mean nasty things in the environment; it simply means all factors that can't be explained solely by genetics).

 

[*Mark*]

Hi all
I guess I got an answer to my post about puppy guarantees.  No answer.  So may I assume from the lack of replies that no one has any opinion or that no one gives any guarantees ( or warranties) on health issues ?

So I will pose yet another topic ( or question).  Cathie mentioned having quite a few pedigrees which indicated that there are many auto-immune problems in the breed.  I would be very interested in hearing just how these problems manifested. Which conditions were shown by the affected dogs ?

This is something that I've always thought to be a rare occurence in Whippets.  I know there are "reactions" in the immune system which are caused by various factors. ( reactions to vaccines mainly)  I previously recounted one that happened to a dog I bred which was triggered by giving a 9 way shot and a Rabies Vaccine within minutes of one another.  Thankfully the dog recovered and is perfectly healthy at this point.  He has been given Rabies vaccines since ( because the law requires same) and has had  his regular vaccines as well. ( without Leptospirosis)  I don't consider this as the dog having auto-immune disorder, but something that was caused by an enviornmental action.

Since Cathie indicated that she feels there is a pretty large incidence of this in our breed, I would like very much to hear more.

Carol

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

My answer to your first question, would any breeder give a guarantee or warranties with puppy's health issues? In this day and age it is highly unlikely that you would get such a guarantee, all respectable breeders, breed whippets to produce the best they can. The most you could expect from the breeder is, 'to the best of my knowledge these will be healthy puppies.' You can't expect a 16 year guarantee, or warranty, it is a dog not a car!

Taking this to an extreme and these are not health related, but would you also expect a guarantee the dog reaches the correct size? Has perfect movement? Becomes a champion? Runs at a certain speed over a certain distance? Will catch 10 rabbits a night?

No these are animals and nature and nurture has to also take a part. The best you can expect is that the breeder will offer to take the puppy back whatever problem you find that you are not happy with.

With regards auto-immune problems post vaccines. Again this is just my point of view and has no evidence to support it, We have never had any auto-immune problems with any of the whippets that we have owned/bred, however, we never give the pups vaccines before they are at least twelve weeks old, much to the disgust of our local vets. We also wouldn't take the pup out into a public place until after the second jab which would be around 14 to 16 weeks at least, then only to an area we know is not used by lots of other dogs (the beach). But maybe this is just old fashioned these days.

 

[seaspot_run]

Here is the language of my standard pet contract:

1. This whippet is sold as pet quality. Pet quality puppies are those who possess either a disqualification or who are unlikely to develop into an adult capable of obtaining a conformation championship. Pet quality puppies must be spayed or neutered by 12 months of age and are not approved for breeding. Pet quality puppies who lack any other breed disqualification except cryptorchidism are approved for lure coursing and racing. Pet quality puppies in any event are approved for obedience and agility training and competition. Pet quality puppies may not be exhibited in any conformation classes without the consent and knowledge of the Breeder. Pet quality puppies are fully guaranteed for temperament and genetic health, and the Breeder will issue a full refund of purchase price if at any time the Buyer is unable or unwilling to keep this whippet, however, transportation of the whippet back to the Breeder shall be the responsibility of the Buyer. The Buyer shall receive the refund immediately upon the Breeder’s receiving the whippet in good condition, and free of contagious disease as certified by the Buyer’s Veterinarian.

 

2. The Breeder will include with the whippet a record of inoculations and other medical treatment of the whippet that were routinely provided up to the time of sale. The Buyer will continue to provide the care necessary to preserve this whippet’s health as determined by a Veterinarian, including but not limited to proper diet, routine inoculations and yearly physical, exercise as recommended by the Breeder, and heartworm preventative if recommended for the Buyer’s state of residence.

 

3. The health of this whippet is guaranteed for three (3) working days through examination by a veterinarian at the option and expense of the Buyer. If the whippet is found to be in unsatisfactory health and written documentation provided by the Veterinarian is presented, the Buyer may elect to return the whippet for a full refund of purchase price, or to submit the bill for any necessary treatment to the Breeder, to be paid by the Breeder. For full refund, the whippet and its registration papers must be returned within 48 hours of the Veterinarian’s examination.

There is a difference between genetic health and health problems caused by contagious, infectious, or parasitic diseases, of course. I think most breeders guarantee the short-term health of the pup against things that may have been contracted at their house, or things that should have been caught by the breeder or their vet prior to the pup leaving. I usually have a fecal run on my pups and get my vet to listen to everyone's heart before I start letting pups go. I also BAER test all my litters now.

So far, I've not had anyone attempt to return an old dog with old age-related health problems. But I don't want my dogs dumped. If one of them gets a health problem that the owner can't pay for or doesn't want to deal with, I want it returned to me not dumped on a rescue organization or abandoned at the pound. I do tell people verbally that although I try to breed healthy lines, that mitral valve is a widespread problem of middle-aged showbred Whippets in the USA and that I do not guarantee that their dog won't get it, and that many dogs diagnosed with murmurs go on to live normal lifespans in generally good health, but if it does and dies at a relatively young age (under 10) from it, I will replace the dog with another puppy.

I probably guarantee my dogs more fully than just about anyone over here, but it's more because I don't want them dumped or sold without my knowledge than because I am so worried about health problems. We had a very bad experience with a buyer who was told they could return the dog, but decided they'd get more money if they put an ad in the paper when they decided they didn't want their young, still unspayed pet bitch anymore. A dodgy sort of breeder saw the ad, saw the pedigree, and decided this was the buy of the century. By the time we found out, it was too late to do anything. The descendants of that dog are still showing up in backyard and puppy mill pedigrees today.

I really don't care why they don't want the dog anymore and if they even have a good reason. If they don't care to keep it, I want it back so I can rehome it myself, and if it means I refund purchase price for life, then that's what I'll do if that's what it takes.

Karen Lee

 

[jayp]

Hi all
I guess I got an answer to my post about puppy guarantees.  No answer.  So may I assume from the lack of replies that no one has any opinion or that no one gives any guarantees ( or warranties) on health issues ?

So I will pose yet another topic ( or question).  Cathie mentioned having quite a few pedigrees which indicated that there are many auto-immune problems in the breed.  I would be very interested in hearing just how these problems manifested. Which conditions were shown by the affected dogs ?

This is something that I've always thought to be a rare occurence in Whippets.  I know there are "reactions" in the immune system which are caused by various factors. ( reactions to vaccines mainly)  I previously recounted one that happened to a dog I bred which was triggered by giving a 9 way shot and a Rabies Vaccine within minutes of one another.  Thankfully the dog recovered and is perfectly healthy at this point.  He has been given Rabies vaccines since ( because the law requires same) and has had  his regular vaccines as well. ( without Leptospirosis)  I don't consider this as the dog having auto-immune disorder, but something that was caused by an enviornmental action.

Since Cathie indicated that she feels there is a pretty large incidence of this in our breed, I would like very much to hear more.

Carol

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

My answer to your first question, would any breeder give a guarantee or warranties with puppy's health issues? In this day and age it is highly unlikely that you would get such a guarantee, all respectable breeders, breed whippets to produce the best they can. The most you could expect from the breeder is, 'to the best of my knowledge these will be healthy puppies.' You can't expect a 16 year guarantee, or warranty, it is a dog not a car!

Taking this to an extreme and these are not health related, but would you also expect a guarantee the dog reaches the correct size? Has perfect movement? Becomes a champion? Runs at a certain speed over a certain distance? Will catch 10 rabbits a night?

No these are animals and nature and nurture has to also take a part. The best you can expect is that the breeder will offer to take the puppy back whatever problem you find that you are not happy with.

With regards auto-immune problems post vaccines. Again this is just my point of view and has no evidence to support it, We have never had any auto-immune problems with any of the whippets that we have owned/bred, however, we never give the pups vaccines before they are at least twelve weeks old, much to the disgust of our local vets. We also wouldn't take the pup out into a public place until after the second jab which would be around 14 to 16 weeks at least, then only to an area we know is not used by lots of other dogs (the beach). But maybe this is just old fashioned these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Hi Mark, Just a question why do you not vaccinate before 12 weeks, i dont want you think i dont recommed this coz i do, but whats your reason?

 

[saraquele]

Hi all
I guess I got an answer to my post about puppy guarantees.  No answer.  So may I assume from the lack of replies that no one has any opinion or that no one gives any guarantees ( or warranties) on health issues ?

So I will pose yet another topic ( or question).  Cathie mentioned having quite a few pedigrees which indicated that there are many auto-immune problems in the breed.  I would be very interested in hearing just how these problems manifested. Which conditions were shown by the affected dogs ?

This is something that I've always thought to be a rare occurence in Whippets.  I know there are "reactions" in the immune system which are caused by various factors. ( reactions to vaccines mainly)  I previously recounted one that happened to a dog I bred which was triggered by giving a 9 way shot and a Rabies Vaccine within minutes of one another.  Thankfully the dog recovered and is perfectly healthy at this point.  He has been given Rabies vaccines since ( because the law requires same) and has had  his regular vaccines as well. ( without Leptospirosis)  I don't consider this as the dog having auto-immune disorder, but something that was caused by an enviornmental action.

Since Cathie indicated that she feels there is a pretty large incidence of this in our breed, I would like very much to hear more.

Carol

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

My answer to your first question, would any breeder give a guarantee or warranties with puppy's health issues? In this day and age it is highly unlikely that you would get such a guarantee, all respectable breeders, breed whippets to produce the best they can. The most you could expect from the breeder is, 'to the best of my knowledge these will be healthy puppies.' You can't expect a 16 year guarantee, or warranty, it is a dog not a car!

Taking this to an extreme and these are not health related, but would you also expect a guarantee the dog reaches the correct size? Has perfect movement? Becomes a champion? Runs at a certain speed over a certain distance? Will catch 10 rabbits a night?

No these are animals and nature and nurture has to also take a part. The best you can expect is that the breeder will offer to take the puppy back whatever problem you find that you are not happy with.

With regards auto-immune problems post vaccines. Again this is just my point of view and has no evidence to support it, We have never had any auto-immune problems with any of the whippets that we have owned/bred, however, we never give the pups vaccines before they are at least twelve weeks old, much to the disgust of our local vets. We also wouldn't take the pup out into a public place until after the second jab which would be around 14 to 16 weeks at least, then only to an area we know is not used by lots of other dogs (the beach). But maybe this is just old fashioned these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Hi Mark, Just a question why do you not vaccinate before 12 weeks, i dont want you think i dont recommed this coz i do, but whats your reason?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

from what i have read re vaccinations the natural immunity from the dam starts to drop at around 10 weeks so if you vaccinate before this date then the vaccine MAY not have any benefit to the puppy , i like to vaccinate at 10 and 12 / 13 weeks :thumbsup:

 

[*Mark*]

Hi all
I guess I got an answer to my post about puppy guarantees.  No answer.  So may I assume from the lack of replies that no one has any opinion or that no one gives any guarantees ( or warranties) on health issues ?

So I will pose yet another topic ( or question).  Cathie mentioned having quite a few pedigrees which indicated that there are many auto-immune problems in the breed.  I would be very interested in hearing just how these problems manifested. Which conditions were shown by the affected dogs ?

This is something that I've always thought to be a rare occurence in Whippets.  I know there are "reactions" in the immune system which are caused by various factors. ( reactions to vaccines mainly)  I previously recounted one that happened to a dog I bred which was triggered by giving a 9 way shot and a Rabies Vaccine within minutes of one another.  Thankfully the dog recovered and is perfectly healthy at this point.  He has been given Rabies vaccines since ( because the law requires same) and has had  his regular vaccines as well. ( without Leptospirosis)  I don't consider this as the dog having auto-immune disorder, but something that was caused by an enviornmental action.

Since Cathie indicated that she feels there is a pretty large incidence of this in our breed, I would like very much to hear more.

Carol

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

My answer to your first question, would any breeder give a guarantee or warranties with puppy's health issues? In this day and age it is highly unlikely that you would get such a guarantee, all respectable breeders, breed whippets to produce the best they can. The most you could expect from the breeder is, 'to the best of my knowledge these will be healthy puppies.' You can't expect a 16 year guarantee, or warranty, it is a dog not a car!

Taking this to an extreme and these are not health related, but would you also expect a guarantee the dog reaches the correct size? Has perfect movement? Becomes a champion? Runs at a certain speed over a certain distance? Will catch 10 rabbits a night?

No these are animals and nature and nurture has to also take a part. The best you can expect is that the breeder will offer to take the puppy back whatever problem you find that you are not happy with.

With regards auto-immune problems post vaccines. Again this is just my point of view and has no evidence to support it, We have never had any auto-immune problems with any of the whippets that we have owned/bred, however, we never give the pups vaccines before they are at least twelve weeks old, much to the disgust of our local vets. We also wouldn't take the pup out into a public place until after the second jab which would be around 14 to 16 weeks at least, then only to an area we know is not used by lots of other dogs (the beach). But maybe this is just old fashioned these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Hi Mark, Just a question why do you not vaccinate before 12 weeks, i dont want you think i dont recommed this coz i do, but whats your reason?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

To be honest I don't have one reason,

1, Because I have no reason to vaccinate before this age as I have no intention of taking the pup out and about.

2, I think that it can be a traumatic experience.

3, It can make them a little unwell for a few days (not would I would call auto-immune issues) just a bit under par. So I would rather make sure they are strong & healthy ready for the insult.

And then because of the rumours,

1, adverse reaction

2, Could cause a dog to suck a nut up, (probably a load of rubbish but why risk it)

But the main reasons are that we have always left it until around this time and never had any problems, so if it isn't broken why fix it. (Not a very strong argument but it works for us.)

Finally, I have not heard of a good reason that vaccination is better to be done at 8 weeks.

 

[clayelem]

One puppy from a litter that I bred in the US had a strong reaction to the Lepto vaccine. One puppy which I purchased in the UK has had a mild reaction to the Lepto vaccine. Would you really consider this an autoimmune inherited disease? I personally would not.

 

[Strike Whippets]

Just a question why do you not vaccinate before 12 weeks, i dont want you think i dont recommed this coz i do, but whats your reason?

My reason for NOT vaccinating a pup before it is 12 weeks old is ....

A) The pup should still have immunity from its Mother (and YES I am one to take a pup out and about in low risk areas before its been jabbed)

B) Both my pet vet and Greyhound vet DON'T agree with the first jab before at least 12 weeks old .... As above ....

I only ever give puppy jabs and thats it ....

 

[jayp]

Does anyone know if this is recommended by breeders in other breeds or is it just whippets?

 

[windsongwhippets]

Hey Mark, I appreciate your response. I guess that what you're saying is the way people here in the USA used to feel and the way some still do. But , in this day and age ( of lawsuits over everything imaginable) most everyone in the USA offer guarantees against inherited problems. With alot of states having the infamous "puppy lemon laws" ( yeah- I know- like a dog is a car) you almost have to offer a guarantee. Some are more lenient than others, but I know very few breeders who don't offer some sort of guarantee. I just was curious to see if the same things were taking place in the UK. Everyone I know tries their best to breed the healthiest dogs possible, but like anything else; it isn't always perfect.

I didn't mean to confuse immune related diseases to an immune related response to something enviornmental ( ie a vaccination). I think those things happen in alot of breeds and are ; while not "common", something that happens more than just once in a while. My question was in response to Cathies post about having alot of pedigrees which indicated immune related conditions in Whippets. I was wondering if these were incidents or actual diseases which are related to the collapse of the immune system.

It's just my opinion, but I have heard very little evidence that there are serious immune system diseases present in Whippets.

Overall I firmly believe that Whippets as a breed are quite healthy- far moreso than many breeds. What I think the breed needs is an awareness if a problem is occuring. Honesty and a forthcoming attitude. NOT WITCH HUNTS !! Sadly ,often when a breeder is forthcoming about a problem they have encountered, it turns into just that and nobody wants to be the next "scapegoat" just for being honest.

Carol

 

[Natalia]

Does anyone know if this is recommended by breeders in other breeds or is it just whippets?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Good article: http://tedeboy.tripod.com/drmichaelwfox/id27.html

 

[Seraphina]

Vaccination is injecting totally harmless virus, which then triggers immune response and in turn builds long term immunity to that kind of virus.

Therefore mild reaction is nothing to worry about. I am sure that anybody who helplessly watched their litters die from parvo or distemper (horrible painful death over few days) does not get too concerned about mild reaction to vaccination.

Puppies get their immunity from their dam, and it starts decreasing from day or so after the birth, by 6 - 8 weeks it is quite low and totally gone by about the 12 weeks. It may vary in different dogs, but it is always gradual process. We vaccinate at 6-8 weeks with a temporally vaccine, which is not affected by the natural immunity. This covers the pups for the time when the natural immunity is already lowered. I also recommend all my puppy buyers not to take their pups anywhere where there are lots of dogs being walked until at least 14 weeks.

 

[Seraphina]

We also wouldn't take the pup out into a public place until after the second jab which would be around 14 to 16 weeks at least, then only to an area we know is not used by lots of other dogs (the beach). But maybe this is just old fashioned these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Avoiding contact with other dogs and places frequented by large number of dogs certainly helps in prevention of infection, but is by no means 100% guarantee. Parvo can last in the ground for a long time and on windy day can be carried in the air. Similarly for distemper.

 

[Eceni]

Here is the language of my standard pet contract:
1.  This whippet is sold as  pet quality.  Pet quality puppies are those who possess either a disqualification or who are unlikely to develop into an adult capable of obtaining a conformation championship.  Pet quality puppies must be spayed or neutered by 12 months of age and are not approved for breeding.  Pet quality puppies who lack any other breed disqualification except cryptorchidism are approved for lure coursing and racing.  Pet quality puppies in any event are approved for obedience and agility training and competition.  Pet quality puppies may not be exhibited in any conformation classes without the consent and knowledge of the Breeder.  Pet quality puppies are fully guaranteed for temperament and genetic health, and the Breeder will issue a full refund of purchase price if at any time the Buyer is unable or unwilling to keep this whippet, however, transportation of the whippet back to the Breeder shall be the responsibility of the Buyer.  The Buyer shall receive the refund immediately upon the Breeder’s receiving the whippet in good condition, and free of contagious disease as certified by the Buyer’s Veterinarian.

 

2.  The Breeder will include with the whippet a record of inoculations and other medical treatment of the whippet that were routinely provided up to the time of sale.  The Buyer will continue to provide the care necessary to preserve this whippet’s health as determined by a Veterinarian, including but not limited to proper diet, routine inoculations and yearly physical, exercise as recommended by the Breeder, and heartworm preventative if recommended for the Buyer’s state of residence.

 

3.  The health of this whippet is guaranteed for three (3) working days through examination by a veterinarian at the option and expense of the Buyer.  If the whippet is found to be in unsatisfactory health and written documentation provided by the Veterinarian is presented, the Buyer may elect to return the whippet for a full refund of purchase price, or to submit the bill for any necessary treatment to the Breeder, to be paid by the Breeder.  For full refund, the whippet and its registration papers must be returned within 48 hours of the Veterinarian’s examination.

There is a difference between genetic health and health problems caused by contagious, infectious, or parasitic diseases, of course.  I think most breeders guarantee the short-term health of the pup against things that may have been contracted at their house, or things that should have been caught by the breeder or their vet prior to the pup leaving.  I usually have a fecal run on my pups and get my vet to listen to everyone's heart before I start letting pups go.  I also BAER test all my litters now.

So far, I've not had anyone attempt to return an old dog with old age-related health problems. But I don't want my dogs dumped. If one of them gets a health problem that the owner can't pay for or doesn't want to deal with, I want it returned to me not dumped on a rescue organization or abandoned at the pound.  I do tell people verbally that although I try to breed healthy lines, that mitral valve is a widespread problem of middle-aged showbred Whippets in the USA and that I do not guarantee that their dog won't get it, and that many dogs diagnosed with murmurs go on to live normal lifespans in generally good health, but if it does and dies at a relatively young age (under 10) from it, I will replace the dog with another puppy.

I probably guarantee my dogs more fully than just about anyone over here, but it's more because I don't want them dumped or sold without my knowledge than because I am so worried about health problems.  We had a very bad experience with a buyer who was told they could return the dog, but decided they'd get more money if they put an ad in the paper when they decided they didn't want their young, still unspayed pet bitch anymore.  A dodgy sort of breeder saw the ad, saw the pedigree, and decided this was the buy of the century.  By the time we found out, it was too late to do anything.  The descendants of that dog are still showing up in backyard and puppy mill pedigrees today.

I really don't care why they don't want the dog anymore and if they even have a good reason. If they don't care to keep it, I want it back so I can rehome it myself, and if it means I refund purchase price for life, then that's what I'll do if that's what it takes.

Karen Lee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Karen - from a veterinary perspective, I can't tell you how much respect I have for your attitude and how much I wish every breeder of every dog (and cat and horse) in the country had your kind of integrity.

thank you for this

m

 

[Eceni]

We also wouldn't take the pup out into a public place until after the second jab which would be around 14 to 16 weeks at least, then only to an area we know is not used by lots of other dogs (the beach). But maybe this is just old fashioned these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Avoiding contact with other dogs and places frequented by large number of dogs certainly helps in prevention of infection, but is by no means 100% guarantee. Parvo can last in the ground for a long time and on windy day can be carried in the air. Similarly for distemper.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I think this might spark a whole new thread, but am interested in the balance people strike between immunity and social behaviour

as a vet with a particular interest in behaviour, it always seemed to me that the two were equally important

- that the pup is covered to the best of our ability (and without blood tests, we're dealing with too many variables really to be sure: dam's immunity, transfer to pups, pups' ability to mount an immune response to vaccine, viability of vaccine given, uptake from injection site, which in turn is dependent on blood supply to injection site... and anyway, we're dealing with biological systems which always work on a bell curve and are very rarely black or white)

- and that the pup develops normal canine behavioural responses. There's a 'cognitive window' which seems to shut at about 14 weeks. Before that, pups (and kittens) are fairly behaviouarlly elastic and can learn to generalise their experiences to the wider population. After it, they become a tad more restricted in their response range, so that it's far harder (but not, obviously, impossible) to socialise them.

So in a behaviourally ideal world, they need to meet - safely- as many things as they rationally can and learn how to behave in their company - with dogs, they need to meet other dogs who themselves are capable of normal canine behavioural signalling (which isn't as common these days as we'd like to think), and then they need also to meet as many people as we can manage without overwhelming them.

dogs and cats can, it seems, count to four and after that they generalise so letting them meet one child/adult dog-that-isn't-mother/whatever isn't enough, in an ideal world, they need to meet at least four.

it's likely that as breeders you have that pretty much taped because you have more than one dog in the house and probably have some immensely dog-friendly people around who are used to helping you socialise your pups. But owners when they take pups (or kittens) home, need to carry on with the socialising.

the old practice of not letting anything out until after its final inoculation at 20 weeks was causing behavioural havoc in the dog and cat world. So part of the point of earlier vaccination is to allow earlier socialisation safely.

presumably you who don't vaccinate until later don't need to worry about that?

m

 

[seaspot_run]

Really good discussion to be had about taking pups out and about at early ages vs. keeping them at home until immunity from the first vaccine can take effect.

I guess my philosophy is that I'd rather risk their physical health than stifle their socialization and personality development. While some people may have enough bustle and frequent visitors enough that a pup who isn't road-tripped can still be well-socialized, for me, living out in the country as I do, I feel that I need to take my puppies out into the wider world before I let them go to new homes. My pups are exposed to car travel, crating, and the noise and hub-bub of dog events. I don't really like to take pups to big dog shows with high densities, but a specialty show, or lure trial or race meet is an ideal venue for getting pups off the property and used to the routine of travel. I had 9 7 week old pups who spent the week at the Boston AWC National with me, and the next year, my litter of 10 went to the AWC Eastern specialty at the age of about 8 weeks, and camped with me in my travel trailer for four days. I got there early, staked out my spot of "clean" grass, and set up my pens for the pups and kept them in it, but of course, they were handled a lot. Nobody got sick and everyone was very well-socialized after having been loved on by so many people.

My buyers do appreciate getting a pup whose first car and crate ride wasn't the ride to their new home. I thinking letting puppy's immune system see a few bugs during the age when they are MOST protected by maternal immunity builds a stronger immune system.

Also, visitors are welcome in my home from day one, so long as they scrub up before handling the pups and don't come from a place where there are sick dogs.

I've even had whelping seminars where aspiring breeders were invited over to participate in a whelping and get hands-on experience.

Now, I do periodically have to deal with outbreaks of what we call the "dog show crud" which is a general diarreah or GI problem of a few days duration that gets passed around here where there is so much transcontinental travel between show sites, but my pups have tended to be much healthier after a week at dog shows than some of my adults, who might have a touch of the "crud". I think the crud is often protozoan, since Flagyl seems to clean it up most of the time.

I do know that there are a lot of other breeders here who swear by their more conservative approach, and that's fine. We all decide what works best for us.

The only thing bad that has ever happened to one of my litters was a few years ago, I lost an entire litter to herpesvirus which was clearly transmitted from dam to pups, as they died over the first week from being born. But that bitch didn't go anywhere--the infection must have been brought home by one of my other dogs, and it causes so few symptoms in adults that I didn't notice anything other than that a few of my dogs seemed a bit lethargic for a day or two. And the mother dog was pregnant with a large litter in the middle of summer when we were averaging about 93 degrees F and so for a bitch that big in weather that hot to be lethargic wasn't anything I really worried about at the time.

I guess you just do the best you can. I have club responsibilities and not going to certain events throughout the year to at least help out is not an option for me.

Karen Lee

 

[Seraphina]

Yes, socialization of young puppy is certainly very important. Thankfully many vets here in OZ nowadays run puppy playgroups, held at the surgery in well disinfected area and only vaccinated and vet checked puppies can attend. That way puppies can play with other pups, meet children and people, and be exposed to other environment and few bugs. Most pups I sell go to these playgroups to start with, and there is also nothing wrong with going to visit friends with dogs little bit later on.

I would not recommend taking puppy to a busy dog park, until after 4 months, not just because of possible infection, but also because meeting with a big rowdy dog could affect the pup's temperament forever, and could even result in injury.

 

[Seraphina]

I am certainly torn between allowing people coming from the day one and playing with the pups and worry about infection. I used to compromise, and have an old towel soaked in bleach at the gate and got everybody to wipe their feet. The believe was that parvo can be bought in on people's shoes - any comment Eceni ? Until one day i watched in horror as one visitor's bottoms of trousers started to show bleached marks where her shoes touched the pants!!! (w00t)

On couple of occasions my pups developed diarrhea day or so after visitors have been and since then I am bit more careful. While that did not seem to affect them (played as normal and did not loose condition) and course of Scourban fix them in no time, I would prefer to avoid it.

 

[Eceni]

I am certainly torn between allowing people coming from the day one and playing with the pups and worry about infection.  I used to compromise, and have an old towel soaked in bleach at the gate and got everybody to wipe their feet.  The believe was that parvo can be bought in on people's shoes - any comment Eceni ?   Until one day i watched in horror as one visitor's bottoms of trousers started to show bleached marks where her shoes touched the pants!!! (w00t)

I was a young vet student when Parvo was first identified and was spreading like wild-fire across Britain - apart from the horror of watching things die in those first waves, we certainly found that it was immensely hard to provide effective barriers. We used plastic theatre covers on our shoes and scrubbed up with Hibiscrub or Pevidine and used paper overalls rather than simply white coats...

it's incredibly resistant to most forms of destruction (tho' bleach does work well, so I'd say that, apart from potentially destroying the shoes/trousers of your visitors, that was a pretty good move). It's long-lived in the environment and can be carried on feet/hands/cars/pretty much anything else that has contact with parvo-infected faeces - so yep, doing everything you can to keep away from infected dogs and then put up a barrier if it's around is a good thing.

I'm not hugely in favour of vaccination, particularly not the current practise of vaccinating for a dozen things at once, but I would always, always use parvo vaccine in young pups and do what I could to cover the immune spread (that is, start early and finish late, so that you are covering the time when maternal immunity is waning to when it's clearly gone). Ditto Distemper... you don't have to see that often to want to keep well clear of it - it's soul-destroying to see what it does to a dog and it's always the truly nice ones that go...

m

 

[Seraphina]

I assume there are many people here too young to remember distemper and even the time when parvo appeared. I had the bad luck to have a litter affected by distemper and would not want to have it happen again. It was a litter of 15 Danes and i have reared them all. They were due to be vaccinated on Saturday (at 6 weeks) when, the day before I noticed that some of them are bit uncoordinated. I called the vet who vaccinated the not affected ones while he was there, but was not sure what was wrong with the others. Next day another couple were affected, those who started be unwell day before were getting worse. I do not remeber when the vet realised it was distemper (it is almost 40 years ago), but despite the fact that I have noticed something is not right very early I lost those that shown the signs the first day. I also lost one of those who started day after, but those who were vaccinated and did not show signs for couple of days, were eaither OK or just had very mild case. I just cannot bring myself not to do the 6 weeks vaccination against distemper, hepatitis and parvovirus. My pups never had a bad reaction.