Hello - opinions sought from dog owners.

[Kristeva]

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Hello all, and thank you for having me.

A bit of an unusual introduction but I must confess straight away I don't actually own a dog and I know very little about them having been raised with cats! However, I'm currently renting a room in a large house owned by a family who have a dog in residence ( a female border collie I think) and just wanted to canvass opinion from experienced dog owners about a situation that I appreciate some might feel is extremely complex.

To cut a long story short the first time I met the dog it seemed rather forlorn and subdued and when I moved in (last week) I very quickly realised she probably has very little, perhaps zero, interaction or stimulation within the family. So I took it upon myself to make a fuss of her morning and evenings for 10 minutes and her demeanour changed considerably. I have so many questions in what is a very complex situation, (even for me and my unconscious motivations as my Mother passed away in June of this year), and obviously I have no idea if anyone on here is remotely interested in this, so I thought I would restrict my question to talking about dog cages.

I know these cages are a very useful for owners and much loved by the dogs who enjoy their own little space but how much time should a dog spend in its cage, either willingly or not? Where I am the dog spends virtually all her time in her cage, other than toilet duties in the garden and her time with me. She clearly loves her little space but I sometimes wonder whether she would spend so much time in there if she had the choice or even a good reason to come out. As far as I can tell she isn't walked, to be fair the owner said she has issues with this and is reluctant to go out, especially in the dark. But what I find rather odd is even when the owner is in the house during the day the door to the cage is almost always locked. Quite what the owner thinks the dog is going to do I don't know, its very submissive and docile, and when out of the cage never leaves the kitchen. This locking of the gate rather upsets me, but should it? Whats the point of this dog's life I ask myself?

Apologies for the ramble. P

 

[JoanneF]

Dog crates are useful and imo all dogs benefit from being crate trained in case there is ever a time when they are needed such as post operative enforced rest. However, most dogs also thrive on human company, interaction and stimulation - which doesn't have to be on walking, some dogs get so anxious on walks that it isn't a pleasure, so they do better on garden visits and other activities. This does sound like a lot of crate time. Can the owner not be persuaded to do things with the dog? If she doesn't want to walk, scentwork or other activities would provide an interest for both of them.

 

[JudyN]

Kudos to you for caring about the dog's wellbeing - and I'm sorry for the loss of your mum.

The dog sounds very understimulated - even if her cage door was left open and she could choose to come and go she might not get much more out of life. She may have issues about going outside, but these issues can usually be overcome with careful training/desensitisation.

The question is, what can you do about it? You could drop hints to the owner, ask if you can spend more time with the dog yourself, give her more interaction and maybe (with the owner's permission) even see if you can get her outside. Possibly this would help the owner see the dog's potential and do more with her. But you might just make the dog more dependent on you, and of course you may later move in in life and not be there for her. That's something for you to judge.

If you do want ideas for interacting with her, games to play, and even help with getting her outside, we can certainly help with that.

 

[Kristeva]

Dog crates are useful and imo all dogs benefit from being crate trained in case there is ever a time when they are needed such as post operative enforced rest. However, most dogs also thrive on human company, interaction and stimulation - which doesn't have to be on walking, some dogs get so anxious on walks that it isn't a pleasure, so they do better on garden visits and other activities. This does sound like a lot of crate time. Can the owner not be persuaded to do things with the dog? If she doesn't want to walk, scentwork or other activities would provide an interest for both of them.

Thanks for your perspective Joanne.

 

[Kristeva]

Kudos to you for caring about the dog's wellbeing - and I'm sorry for the loss of your mum.

The dog sounds very understimulated - even if her cage door was left open and she could choose to come and go she might not get much more out of life. She may have issues about going outside, but these issues can usually be overcome with careful training/desensitisation.

The question is, what can you do about it? You could drop hints to the owner, ask if you can spend more time with the dog yourself, give her more interaction and maybe (with the owner's permission) even see if you can get her outside. Possibly this would help the owner see the dog's potential and do more with her. But you might just make the dog more dependent on you, and of course you may later move in in life and not be there for her. That's something for you to judge.

If you do want ideas for interacting with her, games to play, and even help with getting her outside, we can certainly help with that.

Thanks Judy

You've seemed to have summed up the situation very well. In spending time with the dog the last week she has become a lot bolder and more spritely, venturing further away from the kitchen instead of automatically returning to her cage, but will the owner appreciate this I wonder. I get the impression the dogs routine has developed like this for the owners convenience. The dog was purchased by the owners ex just before they split up. But I agree with you, whatever I do I will need to seek the owners permission first. I need to start a dialogue with the owner about this which is tricky as I've only been here a week. I think getting the dog out for walks is perhaps the most important aspect right now so I'll definitely ask for help with that if I may?

 

[Kristeva]

Can anyone / admin please advise me how I can change my profile name please, if possible?

Thanks.

 

[JudyN]

I think getting the dog out for walks is perhaps the most important aspect right now so I'll definitely ask for help with that if I may?

Absolutely! But I'd say that the most important aspect is getting the owner onside so when you can't walk the dog, the owner will step in and realise how important it is.

You need to talk to the owner about what the dog's issues are, e.g. traffic, people, other dogs, just basic fear of the big outdoors. But taking this into account, I would start at the very beginning - putting the lead on. If she has problems with this, maybe linking the lead to previous bad experiences, you might start by simply having the lead in the room with her and giving her a treat when she looks at it. Build up through putting it on and taking it off (watching out for any sign of collar shyness), pairing 'lead on' with rewards. Then you might simply sit on the doorstep with the door open, with her on lead, and watching the world go by - depending on her issues, give her a treat when a person, dog, or vehicle walks by. Then you move a foot out the door... treat, and back inside. Then two or three feet... and so on. The golden rule is to keep her within her comfort zone - if she communicates 'Ooh, scary!' you've gone too far. Don't try to push her close to her triggers, e.g. getting strangers to give her treats when she's wary of them, because a scary person with a treat is still scary, and once she's had the treat is scarier still. If she's comfortable when triggers are 20 feet away, then link the trigger to a treat. What you want is for her to see the trigger, look to you, and say 'Do I get a treat now?' When this happens, give her the treat and next time aim for 19 feet...

Never 'correct' her, e.g. don't say, 'NO!' if she lunges at a stranger - you let her get too close (of course, it happens, e.g. when someone comes round a corner). Your negative reaction just makes the whole situation more scary for her. You are looking to changing her emotions, not (primarily) her behaviour.

All the above may be quite unrelated to her specific issues with going outside of course, but it gives you the basic approach to take whenever an issue arises.

 

[JoanneF]

Thanks Judy

You've seemed to have summed up the situation very well. In spending time with the dog the last week she has become a lot bolder and more spritely, venturing further away from the kitchen instead of automatically returning to her cage, but will the owner appreciate this I wonder. I get the impression the dogs routine has developed like this for the owners convenience. The dog was purchased by the owners ex just before they split up. But I agree with you, whatever I do I will need to seek the owners permission first. I need to start a dialogue with the owner about this which is tricky as I've only been here a week. I think getting the dog out for walks is perhaps the most important aspect right now so I'll definitely ask for help with that if I may?

Why not say you are going for a walk and wonder if the dog would like to go with you? That said, if the dog isn't used to going out, it could be really overwhelming for her and she actually might get quite stressed. It depends on whether not going out has been a long term thing, and how much exposure to outdoor things she had before. So you would need to be prepared for not getting very far, also for possible reactivity to traffic, other dogs and people.

 

[JoanneF]

Paul, you may need to get used to me and @JudyN posting simultaneously and often repeating each other!

 

[Mad Murphy]

Sorry I have a dizzy headache this morning so Im not much use but...I hate crates with a passion. And this post highlights why ..Theyre are no laws or rule governing who can by them who can use them and how long a dog can be left in one.
There are serious flaws in crate ownership and they are a boon for lazy or neglectful owners who stuff a dog in them and forget about them.

Yes I know there are resonsable uses for them but until there are some stiff rules to stop the braindead and lazy using them to imprison and neglect dogs Im against them.

 

[Kristeva]

Thanks for all your support, I've had a rough year and posting here has really helped me get this off my chest. I've realised I've probably made a mistake coming here. This weekend has proved the dog gets locked in the cage virtually all the time, each time I interact with the dog and leave her in the cage with the door slightly ajar, I return to the kitchen to find the owner has locked the cage. That's not a good sign is it? I probably need to have a conversation with the owner pretty soon but I'm only a lodger after all. I don't feel I can stay here long term if this is going to be norm and the owner is unwilling to change or let me help the dog. I was going to buy my own place at some point, I think I'll start looking now.

 

[Kristeva]

Sorry I have a dizzy headache this morning so Im not much use but...I hate crates with a passion. And this post highlights why ..Theyre are no laws or rule governing who can by them who can use them and how long a dog can be left in one.
There are serious flaws in crate ownership and they are a boon for lazy or neglectful owners who stuff a dog in them and forget about them.

Yes I know there are resonsable uses for them but until there are some stiff rules to stop the braindead and lazy using them to imprison and neglect dogs Im against them.

I think that may be the case here, its become a convenience.

 

[Kristeva]

Paul, you may need to get used to me and @JudyN posting simultaneously and often repeating each other!

No worries Joanne!

 

[Kristeva]

Absolutely! But I'd say that the most important aspect is getting the owner onside so when you can't walk the dog, the owner will step in and realise how important it is.

You need to talk to the owner about what the dog's issues are, e.g. traffic, people, other dogs, just basic fear of the big outdoors. But taking this into account, I would start at the very beginning - putting the lead on. If she has problems with this, maybe linking the lead to previous bad experiences, you might start by simply having the lead in the room with her and giving her a treat when she looks at it. Build up through putting it on and taking it off (watching out for any sign of collar shyness), pairing 'lead on' with rewards. Then you might simply sit on the doorstep with the door open, with her on lead, and watching the world go by - depending on her issues, give her a treat when a person, dog, or vehicle walks by. Then you move a foot out the door... treat, and back inside. Then two or three feet... and so on. The golden rule is to keep her within her comfort zone - if she communicates 'Ooh, scary!' you've gone too far. Don't try to push her close to her triggers, e.g. getting strangers to give her treats when she's wary of them, because a scary person with a treat is still scary, and once she's had the treat is scarier still. If she's comfortable when triggers are 20 feet away, then link the trigger to a treat. What you want is for her to see the trigger, look to you, and say 'Do I get a treat now?' When this happens, give her the treat and next time aim for 19 feet...

Never 'correct' her, e.g. don't say, 'NO!' if she lunges at a stranger - you let her get too close (of course, it happens, e.g. when someone comes round a corner). Your negative reaction just makes the whole situation more scary for her. You are looking to changing her emotions, not (primarily) her behaviour.

All the above may be quite unrelated to her specific issues with going outside of course, but it gives you the basic approach to take whenever an issue arises.

Thanks for this Judy. I'll let you know how I get on.

 

[DixD]

My little dog’s crate is always open, when we are here. He spends a lot of time in it, of his own volition. He seems to look on it as his own little domain. If we go out, he knows the routine - out in the garden to go to the loo, then in his crate until we come home, purely for his own safety, can’t chew things he shouldn’t and cause himself a problem. Once he comes in from the garden, you can’t stop him from heading for his crate and settling down . He seems to love his routine,

The smooth collie we had was very neurotic. Came from a stable environment into one, but he just couldn’t cope with an outdoor environment, used to even just bark his way nonstop up the street, and, for a few years, was a house dog, until we were able to work out a routine that he could cope with. Out in the car to a very specific area he was able to handle, simple walk in a VERY familiar environment, and home again. But, I would say, with him, taking him out was more for my benefit than his, to mKe me feel a “better mum”. He seemed settled and relaxed at home, safelywatched the world go by out the window, and never barked. So, I can see how things can be, if a dog just can’t cope with the outside world. Though, he never used his crate if we were in the house. His preference was to lie right up against you, but he went his crate, and settled happily there, if we went out. This was basically as he and Hugo could be a bit snippy with each other on occasion, and Hugo has never been crated, except fir travelling. So, he got to lord it on the sofa!

Life is never easy with dogs. Like humans, tgey are all different!

 

[Kara 1]

There are laws that state how long a dog is expected to remain in a crate ...all dogs have a right to freedom ...
Thank you for caring and if you end up leaving this home please report this to the RSPCA ...my husbands ex wifes daughter did this to her young dog and i reported her and the inspector visited and told her this was not right ...she came back for unannounced visits and the dog did spend alot more time out of the crate. ...its better to try and do something than walk away and do nothing ...

 

[Ari_RR]

I would suggest just asking the owner if it would be ok to take the dog out for walks. If no objections from the owner - be careful and take things slow when outside, the experience may be overwhelming for the dog.
I would try to avoid accusing the owner of neglect or mistreatment of the dog. Just ask if you can engage the dog more. And who knows, maybe when you move on - you will consider taking the dog with you....?

 

[Kristeva]

My little dog’s crate is always open, when we are here. He spends a lot of time in it, of his own volition. He seems to look on it as his own little domain. If we go out, he knows the routine - out in the garden to go to the loo, then in his crate until we come home, purely for his own safety, can’t chew things he shouldn’t and cause himself a problem. Once he comes in from the garden, you can’t stop him from heading for his crate and settling down . He seems to love his routine,

The smooth collie we had was very neurotic. Came from a stable environment into one, but he just couldn’t cope with an outdoor environment, used to even just bark his way nonstop up the street, and, for a few years, was a house dog, until we were able to work out a routine that he could cope with. Out in the car to a very specific area he was able to handle, simple walk in a VERY familiar environment, and home again. But, I would say, with him, taking him out was more for my benefit than his, to mKe me feel a “better mum”. He seemed settled and relaxed at home, safelywatched the world go by out the window, and never barked. So, I can see how things can be, if a dog just can’t cope with the outside world. Though, he never used his crate if we were in the house. His preference was to lie right up against you, but he went his crate, and settled happily there, if we went out. This was basically as he and Hugo could be a bit snippy with each other on occasion, and Hugo has never been crated, except fir travelling. So, he got to lord it on the sofa!

Life is never easy with dogs. Like humans, tgey are all different!

Thanks for this Dixie, I think your post reflects the complexity of the situation. The dog is certainly a little neurotic.

 

[Kristeva]

I would suggest just asking the owner if it would be ok to take the dog out for walks. If no objections from the owner - be careful and take things slow when outside, the experience may be overwhelming for the dog.
I would try to avoid accusing the owner of neglect or mistreatment of the dog. Just ask if you can engage the dog more. And who knows, maybe when you move on - you will consider taking the dog with you....?

Yes, you're quite right, the situation needs to be handled carefully and I've no idea of the history of all this. I've been debating in my head the best way to broach the subject with the owner. Part of me thinks just ask permission to work with the dog and take it from there and the other thinks why bother, the owner probably won't want a more time demanding dog, in which case just raise the subject of adoption.

Tbh, worst case scenario I think I probably would offer to take the dog with me if it was the only way to get her out of the house.

 

[Ari_RR]

My 2 cents on engaging the owner - I would probably just ask for a favor. Suggesting that you need dog company, rather than that the dog needs more human interaction.. "Hanging out with your dog is really great for me, would you mind if I taker her out for a walk with me every now and then?" Hopefully agreeing will actually make him feel good.