House training

[Peegee]

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Hi, when should I expect my puppy to be completely house-trained. Just when I think she is ok she goes and toilets on the floor - sometimes right in front of me!! Very frustrating. She is now 5 months old.

 

[JoanneF]

Some take longer than others. The best approach is to pre-empt the toileting - take her out and wait until she toilets so you are reducing the chance of an accident as much as you can. The aim is that you are responsible for setting her up to succeed by puting her in a position where every toilet can be outdoors. Still keep acting like her toilet is the best thing ever - provided it is outside - so she knows how happy outdoor toileting makes you and that it brings the best rewards. Remember not to react if she has an accident. One other thing, you might want to have your vet just make sure there isn't a medical reason like a little bladder infection.

 

[gypsysmum2]

Have you housetrained with the door open during good weather? Some dogs get confused about what is outside and what is inside when the door is left open a lot. You may have to start again with the door closed!

Reward immediately and not after she has come towards you.

 

[Peegee]

Thanks for advice. My situation is that I have trained her to use toilet bells on back door and these are working really well - have even taken them with us on family visits and she has used them perfectly in other homes. Last accident downstairs was problably 3 or 4 weeks ago. Still gets lots of praise and treats for going outside - in fact she now runs indoors and sits and waits for treat (chicken)! At night she sleeps in crate on landing and sleeps perfectly from 10.30 to 7ish so last night we thought we'd try her in her bed on the landing. I got up at 5 to visit the loo myself to discover she'd poohed on the carpet, whilst we clearing it up (without any comment) she peed in front of us!! We made no comment and cleared it up. We all went back to bed ( Evie in Her crate) until 7! She will be back in her crate tonight. But now realise that she possible understands not to toilet downstairs but hasn't transferred this knowledge to upstairs! Do you think taking bells upstairs at night and hanging on our door would help or just create another problem. when would we know to take her out of the crate at night?

 

[JoanneF]

I'd keep her in her crate for now. It seems she has nailed that so if it isn't broken, don't fix it. I think my dog was in his crate for over a year because he was happy in it (with the door open ultimately) and we removed it only when we changed the furniture and it didn't fit. He wasn't pleased!

Alternatively, if you want to remove the crate, you might need to continue a little longer with getting up in the night to let her out.

 

[Peegee]

Thanks. I will definitely keep her in the crate for a while longer. I guess it's just guess work as to when to take her out of it at night.

 

[JoanneF]

Having given it more thought; it occurred to me that if she has learned really well to use the bell as her way of telling you she needs out, and the bell isn't there, she wouldn't know how to alert you. So taking the bell upstairs is probably a good idea.

 

[Peegee]

Thanks Joanne. That's what I thought but just a little hesitant that we might then have her ring bells when she fancies going out - which she does do now sometimes downstairs - and going back to her getting us up in the middle of the night rather than waiting till morning as sha does if in her crate. I think on reflection I'll keep her in crate for a while longer and then perhaps test with the bells when I take her out again.

 

[gypsysmum2]

The running indoors for her treat is a big clue as what is going on here.

Any reward for the correct behaviour should be given immediately after that behaviour. It is very common for dogs to think that it is the running indoors, or even just approaching their owners, is what they are being rewarded for. This means that, in the dog's eyes, it is not being rewarded for toileting outside. Ultimately this will result in the breakdown of the house training. I think all the bell ringing, whether it is upstairs or downstairs, are red herrings. It is rewarding the toileting, instantly it is done outside, that is at the crux of the matter.

I would go back to basics. Crate her, when she can't be watched, and take her outside for her toilets. Just stand around being boring until she goes, then praise her as you approach her to give her a high value treat.

You will realise she has cottoned on when she looks at you, expectantly, as she squats to toilet in the garden. Do not disappoint her. If you have forgotten the treat then make a huge fuss of her and then stick a post note on the door to remind you to take a fantastic treat with you next time.

PS Keep an umbrella by the door so there is no excuse for anybody not going with her when she toilets.

 

[Peegee]

Thanks for that. I think that we may well have slipped a bit in timing of reward (some of us more than others - a dig at my husband!). In case we do start to lose the progress we've made I will definitely implement a more rigorous reward timing regime. Everything was going quite well until we tried to leave her out of crate at night! We are also, at the same time, trying to get her to toilet in a special area, and this is going reasonably well, particularly with poohing, although she much prefers to use the rest of the garden if we give her free access, not sure if we are asking too much.

 

[JoanneF]

My dog has access to quite a lot of area in the garden but prefers to poo in two places. You may find she chooses herself to toilet in one area. Of course it might not be where you want!

 

[Peegee]

Yep, that is the problem. Our previous dog always went in the 'designated' area and I'm hoping we can do the same with Evie. Will persevere for a while longer. She mostly uses the 'right' spot - provided we give her restricted access to garden.

What I don't understand is why every article I've read on the subject of house training all stipulate that dogs defecate within 5-30 minutes after eating. Ian Dunbar has even said that this should make it much easier to manage poohing when house training puppies. Evie can go anytime from 30mins to 14hours after eating. do you or Gypsysmum have any answers to this one?

 

[JoanneF]

Young puppies being so small have little tummies and in relation, little digestive systems so everything happens little and often. Why Evie can hold for 14 hours, I don't know! At 5 months I suppose her digestive system has just matured. What you feed also impacts on this - generally good quality food produces smaller and firmer poo because the dog gets more out of the ingredients and less is passed as waste. BTW,I have recently changed to Gentle following Gypsysmum's recommendation. Remind me please what she eats?

 

[Peegee]

She eats Canagan dry food. Which I researched and is a good quality one I think. She seems to be doing well on it. She has rarely poohed within half an hour of eating though.

 

[JoanneF]

Yes, Canagan is very good and if she is doing well on it then that's great. So perhaps it is just that she is finding her normal digestive rhythm and will develop what for her is her regular time to poo. Timber (excuse me for sharing too much) does two poos before 11.00 a.m. and then usually another one in the evening. If Evie is needing to poo overnight, maybe you could make her last meal of the day earlier or smaller? To be honest unless Gypsysmum or someone else has any good ideas (and they might, Gypsysmum in particular has a huge amount of expertise) it may come down to trial and error now!

 

[Cash_Dolly]

My little Dolly sometimes has the odd wee in the house. She has done it since I got her. When I first got her I thought it was the upheaval of ANOTHER new home in her short life. She much improved with me but still has the odd dribble. About 3 months ago now she took a little tumble on the stairs and next things I am being told is her pelvis has multiple fractures! Turns out she had multiple old injuries from previous "owners" I use the term loosely and the fall re-damaged them. She was also pupped and overworked very young. So as it transpires the occasional dribble in the house is actually because she can't hold as long as most dogs because of her pelvis injury! Not saying your dog has an injury but it can be worth a vet check to rule anything out. Mine are 5 and 3 and both still go in their crate frequently (as in crate is always there open and they love it as their little den. On a personal level I like my dogs always being able to be put in a crate and have never taken it away. I had a friend whose parents dog had a horrific leg injury and was put on cage rest but hated the crate because she was only ever in it as a small pup and never since.

 

[Peegee]

Thanks Cash_Dolly and sorry to hear about your poor little dog. I guess the odd dribble is not very much when you hear what she's gone through. Our dog is in her crate on the landing at night and is very happy to go in it and sleeps through till 7ish. However she really didn't like being left in there during the day and on a couple of occasions when we had gone out for maybe no more than an hour we came home to find her quite distressed. We now leave her downstairs free to wander the lounge and kitchen (we have a small home) and she seems much happier. We leave her with plentry to chew and filled Kong. So far, no damage, no accidents and a quiet, settled puppy when we return home.

Gypsysmum was absolutely right when she suggested that Evie may be getting the wrong message when we thought we were treating her for toileting outdoors. She appears to think that we were treating her for coming running into the kitchen and sitting nicely by the fridge!! We have now gone back a step and now go out with her and try to reward immediately she performs, especially in her 'patch'. She seems quite surprised when we do but happy to take the chicken. So thank you Gypsysmums - it's so easy to just get the training a little bit wrong!

 

[gypsysmum2]

Timing is of the essence in training

With children we can explain why they are being rewarded. With dogs they have to make an association between the behaviour and the reward. Sometimes there is on a second or two in it!

It happens a lot when people teach recall. They call the dog and ask it to sit for a treat. The dog does not associate the reward with the recall only the sit. When called, he can refuse to come because he has never, in his eyes, been rewarded for doing so. I blame training classes for much of this misunderstanding. You can pair the two behaviours and reward them but it is an advanced exercise and should not be taught until the recall is perfect! And don't get me started on calling novice dogs from a "stay" position

You should notice your little dog has cottoned on to housetraining when she looks up at you as she squats to perform, anticipating the treat that is coming her way I would train the toileting outside first before putting pressure on her to use a certain area. Keep an umbrella by the door!

 

[Peegee]

Thanks Gypsysmum. We have sort of given up with the 'patch' for wee and reward if she goes anywhere on the patio. However I am still trying to get her to pooh in 'patch' but do you think I should give this up and try to teach this later. She now rarely makes a mistake indoors and always asks to go out (by ringing bells) and is back in crate at night. We are also leaving her loose downstairs on her own during the day for up to two hours at a time and so far no accidents.

PS: we do have an umbrella by the door!!

 

[gypsysmum2]

One step at a time. Crack the outdoor toileting first, then move on to refining where she goes in the garden. I always worry, though, that putting pressure on a dog to perform in a certain place will cause the dog anxiety and ruin any progress made thus far.

Will the dog read, from your body language, that you do not like poop in certain places in the garden? Will this cause the dog to believe that you do not like poop in the garden? This could result in a break down of house training altogether.