How Does It Work ....

[aslan]

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Well, you pay a stud fee to get a litter.  One or two pups are not considered a litter (except in chihuahua), so the owner of the stud dog let you have another try.  Lida

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I don't think I could agree that that is the commonly held perception. A litter is what the bitch produces - a litter of one or a litter of ten - no difference in my mind.

In some peoples' view you are paying for the act of the dog servicing the bitch in the hope that she will produce puppies. Therefore some stud dog owners do not offer a free return. Especially if the dog is proven (many times) the owner may tend to think that the bitch is infertile. Most, however would offer a free return to see what happened next time.

The fact that she does not produce may not be the fault of the dog or the bitch. It could be a fault of wrong timing. Usually the stud dog owner will offer the stud again for free to see what happens next time - especially if he is an unproven dog or if she is an unproven bitch.

I'm not sure if you're right on the other point either Lida, regarding the bitch being solely responsible for conception due to how many eggs she produces. It only takes one sperm to fertilise an egg - so if the dog is 'subfertlie' (I assume that term means only some of his sperm are active) that is all he needs. Would be interested to hear others' comments on this one esp. ILKC being a vet.

 

[dessie]

I agree with you, Lana. You are paying for the service of a dog and not how many puppies you may or may not get, which can be dependent on a number of factors. If I use a maiden dog then I would still expect to pay/receive a stud fee, although maybe not as much as a proven dog. Why should you not presume that a dog is fertile, even if he has not been used before??

Innocent until proven guilty????

I think it is up to the stud dog owner's discretion as to whether you offer a free return if the bitch misses but it is certainly not obligatory.

The stud dog owner does not register the puppies so cannot possibly have any say on what can happen to those puppies but what they can do is refuse to sign the registration form to confirm that their dog was used on that bitch. Should that happen I would just withold the stud fee!!!

Personally, I think endorsements are nonsense because they do not actually stop the new owners from doing anything!! If you want to breed from a dog, you can do, whether the offspring can be KC registered or not is entirely another matter. Anyone can take a dog out of the country, an endorsement will not stop that either. Might stop the dog being registered in another country with the relevant KC but pet owners really are not bothered by that in most cases.

IMO it is just breeders being control freaks, once you have sold a puppy it becomes the property of that new owner and, obviously, you would like the best life possible for it but you cannot control what happens to it forever and be paid!!!

 

[Firebird]

I don't know if this is normal but I have heard of someone who is asking £350+ for an unproven dog and is not going to allow the pups to be registered unless the breeder endorses all the puppies so they can't be bred from.
Can someone let me know if this is standard practice as I have no idea. :thumbsup:

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Thats a new one to me Sounds to me as though he dosnt want the person to use his dog and hasnt got the bottle to say `no ` .

Personally unless the dog in question was SO magnificent then Id go elswhere. £350.00 ( in my opinion ) is FAR too expensive for an unproven dog ( unless its won BOB at Crufts :lol: )

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The dog involved is still a puppy as far as I know.

 

[Seraphina]

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I'm not sure if you're right on the other point either Lida, regarding the bitch being solely responsible for conception due to how many eggs she produces. It only takes one sperm to fertilise an egg - so if the dog is 'subfertlie' (I assume that term means only some of his sperm are active) that is all he needs. Would be interested to hear others' comments on this one esp. ILKC being a vet.

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Although it is true that you only need one sperm to fertilize an egg, the bitch is not very likely to concieve unless you have a certain sperm count. Sperm count of about half the norm will seriously affect fertility.

However, i have seen owners of a stud dog boasting that he sired large litters. Well. he would not have produced 10 pups if the bitch did not produce 10 eggs. Or 27 as the recent case of some mastiff in UK.

ILKC could you comment please!

Lida

 

[Seraphina]

[

QUOTE] A litter is what the bitch produces - a litter of one or a litter of ten - no difference in my mind.

As English is not my first language I do sometimes miss slightly the exact meaning of a word. So i checked my dictionary;

"Litter= group of offspring produced at one time by a mammal"

When talking about one or two pups the word "group" does not readily spring into my mind.

Anyway, the deffinition of more than two pups was ALWAYS (over the past 30+years) the case when I was negotiating the terms for using stud dogs. In the case the bitch did not concieve they all offered free second service, some said I could use the same dog or another one, some even suggested i could bring in another bitch instead. I always found all the people I dealt with very flexible. The only time I ran into problems was when I promissed a pup in lieu of stud fee - never again!

Lida

 

[aslan]

Yeah, so if the bitch has only produced one egg and therefore only one pup - why should a free return stud be offered?

How would you know, unless fertility tests were done, whether the dog or bitch was "at fault" for only one pup? So why should it automatically be assumed that HE did not give HER enough pups and therefore she gets another go 'round?

In my mind - if A pup or pups are produced then the dog has done his job. If no pups are produced then I would offer a free return to see what happened next time.

 

[chelynnah]

Well, you pay a stud fee to get a litter.  One or two pups are not considered a litter (except in chihuahua), so the owner of the stud dog let you have another try.  Lida

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That's the first I've heard that! I've heard if you get NO pups a return is the done thing, but never if it's not enough pups.

Wendy

 

[JAX]

Whilst on the subject of `sperm count ` (w00t) has any one ever seen the little fellas in real life ? , When a Swedish lady wanted `Badgers` sperm I had to take him to the Royal Vet school at South Minns for a sperm count and to send off his Sperm to Sweden V . plus all the paperwork of course . The Vet, Gary England Id know since he was 8 years old and it was quite embarrassing standing there whilst he `hand worked ` Badger to get him to ejaculate (w00t) :b

That done, :b he then put a slide with some sperm on under the microscope and showed me the swimmers and the non swimmers and those with `funny shapes . (When I have broccli it always reminds me of them ) I found it fasinating to think that most of any creature and man can come from such a small thing ( joined with an egg of course )

Unfortunatley Badgers sperm was not 100% as he was over 11 years old at the time and no pups resulted from all our efforts , but the experiance was well worth doing

 

[Tesa]

IMO it is just breeders being control freaks, once you have sold a puppy it becomes the property of that new owner and, obviously, you would like the best life possible for it but you cannot control what happens to it forever and be paid!!!

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Sidetracking your thread for a second Lana just to say how refreshing it is to see/hear the above comment, well said Dessie. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

BTW interesting topic

 

[Seraphina]

Yeah, so if the bitch has only produced one egg and therefore only one pup - why should a free return stud be offered? 
How would you know, unless fertility tests were done, whether the dog or bitch was "at fault" for only one pup?  So why should it automatically be assumed that HE did not give HER enough pups and therefore she gets another go 'round?

In my mind - if A pup or pups are produced then the dog has done his job.  If no pups are produced then I would offer a free return to see what happened next time.

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I guess it just depends on the 2 parties' agreement. As I said, over the years all the stud dog owners I dealt with were very accomodating. I never had a bitch missing completely, but I did have one pup once and got a free service for different bitch.

Well. I myself would not feel comfortable if somebody paid me $500 and did not get at least 3 pups. It has nothing to do with who is to blame. I would not consider it a bother to allow them another free service. After all, with an experienced stud dog and willing bitch it is just a matter of 20-30minutes of my time.

Lida

 

[bardmand]

Yeah, so if the bitch has only produced one egg and therefore only one pup - why should a free return stud be offered? 
How would you know, unless fertility tests were done, whether the dog or bitch was "at fault" for only one pup?  So why should it automatically be assumed that HE did not give HER enough pups and therefore she gets another go 'round?

In my mind - if A pup or pups are produced then the dog has done his job.  If no pups are produced then I would offer a free return to see what happened next time.

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I guess it just depends on the 2 parties' agreement. As I said, over the years all the stud dog owners I dealt with were very accomodating. I never had a bitch missing completely, but I did have one pup once and got a free service for different bitch.

Well. I myself would not feel comfortable if somebody paid me $500 and did not get at least 3 pups. It has nothing to do with who is to blame. I would not consider it a bother to allow them another free service. After all, with an experienced stud dog and willing bitch it is just a matter of 20-30minutes of my time.

Lida

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I have to agree with you on that, Seraphina. Also, unless you believe the mating will result in quality puppies, you should not allow that particular bitch the service of your dog. If you really believe in the combination, it should really be in the best interest of the stud owner that the bitch gets more than a single pup. The way I see it, "whose to blame" for the number of puppies is well nigh impossible to establish with any certainty, and therefore quite irrelevant for the stud fee, refunds and so on.

 

[malin]

For my first litter 15 years ago I paid ~£360 for the mating with explicitly no return deal, puppies at that time went for about £290. Rather expensive, but the owners really didn't want others to use him I guess.

For my b&w dog I've charged a fee at the mating and then a slightly smaller fee for each pup produced. Might not be the most fair system but I feel it makes it easier for the bitch owner (whippet puppies are hardly the easiest breed to find good homes for). For a _really_ large litter it would add up to the price of one pup approximately. The one mating that didn't result in puppies I've offered a return for any bitch owned by them.

 

[Seraphina]

IMO it is just breeders being control freaks, once you have sold a puppy it becomes the property of that new owner and, obviously, you would like the best life possible for it but you cannot control what happens to it forever and be paid!!!

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Sidetracking your thread for a second Lana just to say how refreshing it is to see/hear the above comment, well said Dessie. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

BTW interesting topic

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Cannot agree more.

I either sell pups as pets on the limited register or with full papers and it is up to the people what they wish to do. None of this retaining control and breeding rights, which seems to be fashionable.

Lida

 

[aslan]

Wholeheartedly agree! The only time I have ever retained any kind of control over my pups is when I have ventured into a partnership with someone, and I very rarely do that.

Of course I am available to discuss with owners (if they want my advice) on possible mates for their Aslan pups, but I have never put demands on anyone that they ARE NOT ALLOWED to mate their dog to certain other dogs or that they cannot sell pups to certain people.

I have had it done to me and it is not a pleasant feeling.

 

[Seraphina]

I do not think I would want to have a dog in co-ownership. What happens if you fall out with your co-owner? You each have half a dog, unable to do anything without the other's permission.

I have in past placed dogs under "breeder's terms" conditions. Basically they got their puppy for free, I was supposed to get a litter from her 2nd season, after that I would have signed the bitch over to them. The first one has moved away, with profuse apologies, 3 000km to Perth. The second one just moved without letting me know. The third one never let me know when the bitch was in season. After that I decided to charge half the normal price with the same conditions. The last one was fed all sort rubbish by the kids and ended up looking like a little piggy. :rant:

Lida

 

[playawhile]

In Sweden I believe the stud fee is dependent on how many pups the dog produces and stud fee is paid per pup.

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Hi!

Yes that is the most common practice here in Sweden, you pay one fee for the mating (usually the same price as for each pupy) and then an amount per puppy. Some dog owners charge one amount but usually in the end the cost for the bitch owner is pretty much the same either way.

What I can see at the moment here in Sweden is that dog owners (also inexperienced dog owners) are charging more and more the first time the dog is used. Earlier owners of "first time maters" were a bit more modest conisdering not knowing what to expect from the dog.

Henrik Härling

 

[malin]

dog owners (also inexperienced dog owners) are charging more and more the first time the dog is used.

Really! The bitch owner is taking a risk using an unproven dog!!! I myself didn't charge anything in that situation. BUT the decision about setting a price is the prerogative of the stud owner. After all, the bitch owner can always use something else if they strongly disagree.

 

[dessie]

I do not think I would want to have a dog in co-ownership.  What happens if you fall out with your co-owner?  You each have half a dog, unable to do anything without the other's permission.
Lida

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Mmmmmmm precisely. I would never have dogs in joint ownership .......... not even husband!! I have seen dogs become the arguing point in divorces on a number of occasions!!

 

[Dusilla]

In Sweden I believe the stud fee is dependent on how many pups the dog produces and stud fee is paid per pup.

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Hi!

Yes that is the most common practice here in Sweden, you pay one fee for the mating (usually the same price as for each pupy) and then an amount per puppy.

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In Finland we have the same system: mating fee + (fee * number of puppies)

 

[dessie]

Cor! I am going to start using the Scandanavian system!!!