Inbreeding Coefficients

[Avalonia]

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Oh for gosh sakes. Can someone stop this insanity? Whippets are a substantial and healthy breed and there is a diverse gene base on which to base present and future generations. Just because the German Shepherd has been bred, mostly by American 'fanciers' to be a crippled dog that looks and peforms nothing like it should or has in the past looked or performed -- and is today in most countries nothing like it looks in Germany where the breed orignated --- and that creeps around the ring on weak hind legs quivering as it moves (or should I say skulks) , does not mean that this is where the whippet is going?

Am I the only person on this forum that thinks the people who are looking for problems in the whippet are people who have been in the breed for a fairly short time and are being influenced by theories and postulizations of those with the experience of rank amateurs who may have little actual or real proof, or little real or actual experience in the reality of the health and stability and quality of the breed? I for one would be curious to know how many of these exponents of these "problems" in the breed have have actually bred a number of litters over say, 10 or 15 or 20 years, and tried out the various theories on linebreeding, outcrossing, etc. enough to prove them, right or wrong in their own mind. There is something dangerous about speaking before one knows, and I am concerned that there are far too many people with limited experience in the whippet breed speaking as if they know.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. It is time for those who know the breed, and know the breed well to stand up and tell those who have been in the breed for 33 minutes to catch their breath and wait a while, a watch, analyze and study what happens when dogs are linebred, outcrossed, or bred flavour of the month to flavour of the month ... and their analysis covers multiple generations and not the single generation most of these theories seem to be based on.

Puleese! Can we put a stop to this insanity?

I am sure everyone will hate me for this, but when I see 65 pages of mostly uninformed comment on the direction the breed is going I have to say ... for heavens sake stop this insanity now!

Lanny Morry

 

[seaspot_run]

I take a somewhat less alarmist view than some of our posters, but I don't think that the same genetic science that apply to other breeds have no application to Whippets.

Fred Lanting is a very interesting guy. He has also bred and owned Whippets (in the 1970's) and is approved to judge in the UK and give out tickets. There are a lot of fascinating stories about him. The AKC gave him the boot--there is a lot of controversy--but he's still very much in demand and revered by people who are trying to breed for the all-around German Shepherd (Alsatian). He started in dogs in 1937--you can't call him a novice.

If people want to talk about his article, why not let them talk? Maybe some of you are new to message boards or the internet, but the general rule of thumb is that if you want to take issue with some post or posts, state your case and buttress your arguments, but if you don't like the subject, it's not up to you to say that it shouldn't be discussed by others.

I know you and patsy and uk/usa are sick of this subject, but others are not. Let those who are not continue to discuss it and if you are sick of it, then don't click.

It's that simple.

Karen Lee

 

[Seraphina]

I suppose Lanny you think that Whippets are exempt from the basic genetic science?

It has been shown over and over in every research on animals of any species that more inbred they are less viable they become, as well having impaired immune system, higher rates of parasitic infestation etc. etc.

Just because Whippets are relatively healthy does not mean people should not take notice of science. When problems start being really obvious it is bit too late.

Everybody is welcome to breed their dogs whichever way they wish, and those who do not want to read about certain subjects are not forced to do so.

[SIZE=14pt]BUT PLEASE, respect others' right to discuss anything they wish within the rules of this board. [/SIZE]

 

[Ms Molly]

Any living being, be it animal or human, is never exempt from health issues. We need to 'come out' and discuss it. Sweeping it under the rug will not make it go away.

I agree with Karen and Lida. No like, don't log in.

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

Just been passed a couple of past dog papers.

Wonder if the Breed Notes will be asked to slap wrists again (w00t)

 

[~elizabeth~]

Many thanks Janis and Pamela for posting these articles.

These are also interesting, as some of the issues in this breed are the same as those currently being observed in whippets:

"There is a strong possibility that inbreeding depression may be becoming a factor in Australian Shepherds. Reproductive problems do occur. Almost 25% of the breeders who responded to the 1999 Australian Shepherd Club of America breed health survey reported having dogs with reproductive failures (low sperm count, lack of libido, failure to conceive, small litters or poor mothering ability). This has sobering implications for the breed. There is no way from this data to know the COIs of the affected dogs, but such a large response indicates that breeders need to pay more attention to reproductive issues.

Autoimmune disease data was gathered in the same survey. (Allergy data is being excluded here because the survey did not distinguish between mild or isolated allergy attacks and severe chronic conditions.) 17% of the respondents reported having had at least one dog with autoimmune disease, another sobering statistic...

... Even with the rapid rise of inbreeding levels in the Australian Shepherd to the point that so many of our dogs are virtual half-siblings, our short history as a registered pure breed and our broad founder base has given us the potential to keep our breed healthy and viable. The Aussie is in much better shape than so many other breeds and need not risk the extinction warnings of the opening quotation. It is up to breeders to see that it stays that way. "

Australian Shepherd Health & Genetics Institute article

"In the process of creating the tables of longevity data, I noticed that the many sources of breed longevity estimates were overly-optimistic. They often reported an expected longevity that greater than longevities measured in questionnaire surveys. I decided to quantitatively compare estimates of breed longevity to the available survey data. "

Longevity in Dogs - perception and reality

(the author warns against complacency in breeds that have been traditionally thought to be largely healthy and long-lived)

 

[jayp]

Im sorry if you find this thread disturbing, no actually im not! I as one of the posters interested in this take great exception to my desire for information and genuine concern that our breed does not follow others less fortunate, being derided in this way. The only thing bringing the whippet into disrepute is the attitude of some who should know better. The articles are thought provoking and written by well respected, intelligent people who have given a lifetime to this research. You may not like the conclusions they have reached but i for one will not be bullied, this forum is about sharing information of any kind and not just for stroking ego"s.

You may not be interested but others are so please stay off the topic and dont ruin it for those of us that think you can never have too much open discussion

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

Im sorry if you find this thread disturbing, no actually im not! I as one of the posters interested in this take great exception to my desire for information and genuine concern that our breed does not follow others less fortunate, being derided in this way.           The only thing bringing the whippet into disrepute is the attitude of some who should know better.    The articles are thought provoking and written by well respected, intelligent people who have given a lifetime to this research.  You may not like the conclusions they have reached but i for one will not be bullied,  this forum is about sharing information of any kind and not just for stroking ego"s.  You may not be interested but others are so please stay off the topic and dont ruin it for those of us that think you can never have too much open discussion

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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Are there some posts missing? Just can't work out who you are talking to. :b

Edited to say

Sorry, think I just realised.

 

[chelynnah]

If you want to discuss it, discuss it

If you don't then don't.

If you agree, fine

If you don't, fine

If you wish to agree to disagree, that's fine too.

But whatever you do please remember to NOT GET PERSONAL.

Pretty please :cheers:

 

[TC]

I'm not prepared to go that we need to crossbreed all the time.

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no, but people need to be aware of scientific facts

I think that what's really needed is more international sharing of bloodlines to promote heterozygousity.

Absolutely

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But isn't there a risk that will result in less, rather than more, due to the well known habit of breeders to all flock to the currently fashionable sire? Then we risk having an all-purpose "show whippet" with a consequent loss of type as well as bloodlines.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

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Gay,

Could I just ask you to clarify what you mean by 'an all-purpose "show whippet" ' please, and why this would be a bad thing (depending on your meaning of course)

TCx

 

[doris]

Any living being, be it animal or human,  is never exempt from health issues. We need to 'come out' and discuss it. Sweeping it under the rug will not make it go away.
I agree with Karen and Lida. No like, don't log in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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Totally agree - some of the threads on this forum don't even make sense anymore, they've been so heavily edited!!!! :angry:

It's fine to say how you feel, but honestly, if you need to resort to personal insults, maybe this forum isn't the place for you :- "

 

[Seraphina]

I have just very carefully re-read the first article and there is certainly lot of interesting information as well as suggestions that should be discussed and evaluated. I cannot say i agree with everything. For instance I would find it terrifying if the breed clubs would have a say in what breeders do. Everybody has their own interpretation of the standard, their own idea of what they want to achieve and i believe we should all be free to do that. Provided it is not to the detriment of the health of the dogs we produce.

Now I go to read properly the second article.

 

[Eceni]

I wonder if someone who has all the data, and is experienced within the breed, could identify how many genuinely unrelated lines exist in whippets.

As someone who only has 'the whippet archive' to go by - which is not the greatest resource, but does make sense insofar as I have yet to find two pedigrees where the facts differed (so it's internally consistent, if nothing else), within show whippets (so excluding the 'Sooty Sam' lines of the working whippets) seems to be a lot of uniformity in the pedigrees I'm looking at - that is, the same few names crop up multiple times in the fourth/fifth/sixth generations leading to CoIs that mimic brother/sister matings.

but as has been pointed out, I'm not an expert. Someone like Gay, perhaps, who has all the information might be able to do the number crunching?

m (keeping head well below the parapet)

 

[Eceni]

Still with head well below the parapet, I came across this, which is interesting, if primarily because one of the co-authors is the Kennel Club's current genetics advisor, so perhaps there'll be a sea change in what we're doing. I did like the idea of the 'holistic dog' put forward in the original paper - seemed a laudable aim with little to be said against it other than that it will require a change in mind set on the part of those who are still practising the old style of breeding. Many thanks to Jayp for posting. (and how did you find it?)

Population Structure and Inbreeding From Pedigree Analysis of Purebred Dogs

 

Federico C. F. Calboli, Jeff Sampson, Neale Fretwell and David J. Balding

 

Genetics, Vol. 179, 593-601, May 2008, Copyright © 2008

 

Dogs are of increasing interest as models for human diseases, and many

canine population-association studies are beginning to emerge. The choice of

breeds for such studies should be informed by a knowledge of factors such as

inbreeding, genetic diversity, and population structure, which are likely to

depend on breed-specific selective breeding patterns. To address the lack of

such studies we have exploited one of the world's most extensive resources

for canine population-genetics studies: the United Kingdom (UK) Kennel Club

registration database. We chose 10 representative breeds and analyzed their

pedigrees since electronic records were established around 1970,

corresponding to about eight generations before present. We find extremely

inbred dogs in each breed except the greyhound and estimate an inbreeding

effective population size between 40 and 80 for all but 2 breeds. For all

but 3 breeds, >90% of unique genetic variants are lost over six generations,

indicating a dramatic effect of breeding patterns on genetic diversity. We

introduce a novel index for measuring population structure directly from

the pedigree and use it to identify subpopulations in several breeds. As

well as informing the design of canine population genetics studies, our

results have implications for breeding practices to enhance canine welfare.

ms

 

[jayp]

Hiya Manda, I was looking for software to do COI for my own interest and simply googled In-breeding coefficients, There were many articles of interest as well s the one i posted with lots of parallels in other purebred stock, I am trying to find one on racehorses and will post when i do :cheers: Jan

 

[05whippet]

Hiya Manda,  I was looking for software to do COI for my own interest and simply googled In-breeding coefficients,  There were many articles of interest as well s the one i posted with lots of parallels in other purebred stock, I am trying to find one on racehorses and will post when i do    :cheers:   Jan

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I find the whole thing really fascinating & it is one of those articles that you need to read and read again and then go back and read yet again to fully understand it as I seemed to understand more and more of it the more I re-read it,I certanly think it is relevant to whippets - just as it is relevant to the German Shepherd or the Boxer or indeed any breed,I personally do not see why it should be instantly dismissed,you know my mother used to always say to me that people are scared of things they don't truly understand & I do believe there is some truth in that and I also honestly believe that to make a uniformed descision or opinion on something you must know & understand what it is you are talking about...so I am off for another read thru the articles yet again!! Thanks Jan. :thumbsup:

And I would also be really interested in reading the racehorse one when you find it too please as that is relevant to us also.

PS....I too noticed that the breed notes had made a comment or comments about what was obviously this forum and certain threads.

 

[jayp]

Hi, Here is a link to a site that has a race horse link on it

www,parispoodles.com/Inbreeding.html

There are lots of others if you google inbreeding coefficients racehorses,, most seem to say coefficient below 5% in 10 generations is acceptable

Cant seem to find any well researched articles that say coefficiets over 6% in any livestock is advantageous but will gladly post if anyone else has!!!!!!!!

 

[doris]

PS....I too noticed that the breed notes had made a comment or comments about what was obviously this forum and certain threads.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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oh, I've missed that

 

[jayp]

Many thanks Janis and Pamela for posting these articles.
These are also interesting, as some of the issues in this breed are the same as those currently being observed in whippets:

"There is a strong possibility that inbreeding depression may be becoming a factor in Australian Shepherds. Reproductive problems do occur. Almost 25% of the breeders who responded to the 1999 Australian Shepherd Club of America breed health survey reported having dogs with reproductive failures (low sperm count, lack of libido, failure to conceive, small litters or poor mothering ability). This has sobering implications for the breed. There is no way from this data to know the COIs of the affected dogs, but such a large response indicates that breeders need to pay more attention to reproductive issues.

Autoimmune disease data was gathered in the same survey. (Allergy data is being excluded here because the survey did not distinguish between mild or isolated allergy attacks and severe chronic conditions.) 17% of the respondents reported having had at least one dog with autoimmune disease, another sobering statistic...

... Even with the rapid rise of inbreeding levels in the Australian Shepherd to the point that so many of our dogs are virtual half-siblings, our short history as a registered pure breed and our broad founder base has given us the potential to keep our breed healthy and viable. The Aussie is in much better shape than so many other breeds and need not risk the extinction warnings of the opening quotation. It is up to breeders to see that it stays that way. "

Australian Shepherd Health & Genetics Institute article

"In the process of creating the tables of longevity data, I noticed that the many sources of breed longevity estimates were overly-optimistic.  They often reported an expected longevity that greater than longevities measured in questionnaire surveys.  I decided to quantitatively compare estimates of breed longevity to the available survey data. "

Longevity in Dogs - perception and reality

(the author warns against complacency in breeds that have been traditionally thought to be largely healthy and long-lived)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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Thanks Elizabeth, these links are well worth a look, the first one the aussie shepherd site is

fantastic click on" Aussie genetic health" it has the best explanation i have yet seen on allergies and immune systems :cheers: :thumbsup:

 

[posh totty]

threads like this are sooooooooooooooo important, thank you contributors :thumbsup:

although i dont thank you the amount of time im spending going back through things til im getting it clearer lol :lol: