Kennel Club To Clamp Down On Breeders

[Seraphina]

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My feeling is that if you want to avoid harmful extremes of structure in the breeds that have a working purpose, you need a minimal test of functionality.

As for breeds like the Peke, well..that's a bit trickier as those breeds were basically developed to be bizarre in conformation and unable to run away from their owners very fast. IOW, if you make them athletes, they aren't what they are supposed to be.  The Pekingese is supposed to be a muff-shaped dog.

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Yes, but is would be nice if they could breath. I do not care how bizarre animal may look, as long as it does not suffer.

 

[seaspot_run]

My feeling is that if you want to avoid harmful extremes of structure in the breeds that have a working purpose, you need a minimal test of functionality.

As for breeds like the Peke, well..that's a bit trickier as those breeds were basically developed to be bizarre in conformation and unable to run away from their owners very fast. IOW, if you make them athletes, they aren't what they are supposed to be.  The Pekingese is supposed to be a muff-shaped dog.

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Yes, but is would be nice if they could breath. I do not care how bizarre animal may look, as long as it does not suffer.

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There is indeed a limit on deforming the canine body plan, but there are many breeds that sail close to rocky and dangerous shores on that.

That's for those breeds and their fanciers. I don't think it's up to me, or that I have a vote, about Pekes or English Bulldogs or other such extreme morphology breeds. What about the breeds that CAN breathe but are of such giant size they don't live as long as medium-sized breeds???

As for Whippets, I think all we need to do is have a baseline test of function and require all breeders to do the health testing for the problems that are known to be present in the breed, and to keep their inbreeding coefficients on average down to a dull roar.

Agreeing on the above three things will undoubtedly be a process that will require years and years to settle.

Karen

 

[Seraphina]

That's for those breeds and their fanciers. I don't think it's up to me, or that I have a vote, about Pekes or English Bulldogs or other such extreme morphology breeds.

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I think that if these animals are bred deliberately in such a way that they suffer, and the deformity is becoming more and more pronounced, then we do have a right to criticize. If I see somebody kicking a dog I would certainly stop and interfere (once I did that and the man pulled a knife on me). You are right, there is not much I can do to get breeders to re-think their selective breeding methods, but I always hoped that by talking about it and showing how much these breeds changed in 100 years maybe something will happen.

What about the breeds that CAN breathe but are of such giant size they don't live as long as medium-sized breeds???

The top winning Great Dane in Germany in the end of 1800s was a male 29" at shoulder. Some are now 39" and maybe more, most are total cripples. Hard to estimate how much they suffer, but revising their standard and setting size limits would not be so bad. Again, I do not care how long the dog lives, as long as it can be healthy and fit right through its lifespan, then there is no problem.

 

[dragonfly]

I have a question.....................due to the now much discussed programme the KC has issued various statements etc for the future. Cathie you have rightly stated that this programme has triggered this action but you also say that it is many years overdue.

But during my years in the breed and an on/off breed club committee member can I ask why these issues i.e genetic diversity, health problems etc. were not a major point on the relevant agendas and then taken forward to the KC? And reported on by the Breed Council to the various clubs & their membership.

I can remember the 'odd' question arising but there never appeared to be any wide sweeping major concerns for the health of the whippet coming back from that.

I am not totally defending the KC in this but surely without concrete evidence put before them they cannot act on an all breed front?

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Annie, the point is that if we take steps now to test our dogs, increase genetic diversity and reduce inbreeding levels we will have a healthier population as a whole and be far less likely to run up the cul de sacs currently being experienced by breeds such as the cavalier (inevitible if the close breeding one sees routinely continues) It is well known that the whippet breed has some history of heart problems, PRA and deafness among the diseases that can easily be tested for. It is better to catch the problem now than to carry on carelessly until these issues are a real problem for the breed. In the USA whippets are routinely tested for such problems, they are well ahead of us. The KC have the evidence that heart health is a concern in the whippet, if they won't put us on a list for compulsory testing the Breed Council should ask them to.

The KC can act for the whippet by following the suggestions made by the researchers at Imperial college and applying them to all breeds NOW.

It would be unforgivable to wait until there are as you say "wide sweeping concerns". It is too late then. :nuke:

Cathie

 

[seaspot_run]

That's for those breeds and their fanciers. I don't think it's up to me, or that I have a vote, about Pekes or English Bulldogs or other such extreme morphology breeds.

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I think that if these animals are bred deliberately in such a way that they suffer, and the deformity is becoming more and more pronounced, then we do have a right to criticize. If I see somebody kicking a dog I would certainly stop and interfere (once I did that and the man pulled a knife on me). You are right, there is not much I can do to get breeders to re-think their selective breeding methods, but I always hoped that by talking about it and showing how much these breeds changed in 100 years maybe something will happen.

What about the breeds that CAN breathe but are of such giant size they don't live as long as medium-sized breeds???

The top winning Great Dane in Germany in the end of 1800s was a male 29" at shoulder. Some are now 39" and maybe more, most are total cripples. Hard to estimate how much they suffer, but revising their standard and setting size limits would not be so bad. Again, I do not care how long the dog lives, as long as it can be healthy and fit right through its lifespan, then there is no problem.

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I think it's an interesting subject, but as this is a Whippet board, we're just shouting into a bucket if we discuss Pekes and Danes here.

As for Whippets, I think that our standard does not describe an unfunctional, unhealthy breed. The application of the standard, or the idiosyncratic interpretation of the standard by some judges, contributes to the rewarding of some extremes, but I do not feel our breed standards need any tweaking.

What is needed is a baseline agreement on what health checks and tests should be done prior to mating, and if we have reached the point where excessive inbreeding must be discouraged (and what degree of in/linebreeding is excessive). That's where Whippets can be protected by breeders and breed clubs. Secondarily, function can be maintained by having a minimal test of function.

To me, the place to start for the UK would be to add some health tests to the guidelines for the accredited breeder scheme. Right now, there are none. Surely a breeding animal should have a clear eye exam and a clear aescult prior to breeding if under the age of 10.

 

[posh totty]

its about time to get stuff tested off own our backs not just because we are told? at the end of the day we all sing from the same hymn sheet , we love the breed for what ever reason , we want our breed healthy and im sure we are all willing to whats right for our breeds health :thumbsup:

personally imo i think all puppies leaving a breeder should be chipped and the breeder kept on record for the dogs life , not just with kc records :thumbsup:

 

[nicky12]

The Kennel Club is releasing the first of these new breed standards today, for the Pekingese, and has taken a tough line with the breed following extensive and abortive consultations. This is set to radically improve the health of the Pekingese which for nearly a hundred years was bred to have a flat face; a feature which can lead to breathing problems; under the new health plan the breed will be required to have a defined muzzle.

:- " waits for the rescue places to say they have a lot of these looking for homes as ther not to breed standard anymore and ther show homes no longer want ,i bet ther will be alot of these pekingese that dont qualify showwies under the new standards ,hope that made sence it did in my head

 

[k4tie-d]

The Kennel Club is releasing the first of these new breed standards today, for the Pekingese, and has taken a tough line with the breed following extensive and abortive consultations.  This is set to radically improve the health of the Pekingese which for nearly a hundred years was bred to have a flat face; a feature which can lead to breathing problems; under the new health plan the breed will be required to have a defined muzzle.

:- " waits for the rescue places to say they have a lot of these looking for homes as ther not to breed standard anymore and ther show homes no longer want ,i bet ther will be alot of these pekingese that dont qualify showwies under the new standards ,hope that made sence it did in my head 

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made sence to me :thumbsup:

i wondered this to, if the kc dramaticaly change the breed standard of any breed then surley all the people who show and do well just now will now not do well as their dogs match the old breed standard???

all the money that people have paid to have a pup for a champ, so that they can show their pup in the hopes it does well, will be for nothing as their pups probabily wont match the breed standard either :blink:

for example, gsd, show ones have slopping backs, working have straight backs, if the kc decided that the standard was to go back to the working way (the way they should be) all the gsd show will have the wrong shape of dog :unsure:

i totaly agree that things need to change im just wondering what will happen to all these dogs out their who were once the best of the best and will probabily now be classed lowest of the low :blink:

or have i got this wrong?? :unsure:

 

[Hebridean]

Yes the breed standard is for all whippets but the kennel Club runs showing and tends to forget people do other things with their dogs as well.

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I think that this could be said for breed clubs as well.

 

[nicky12]

The Kennel Club is releasing the first of these new breed standards today, for the Pekingese, and has taken a tough line with the breed following extensive and abortive consultations.  This is set to radically improve the health of the Pekingese which for nearly a hundred years was bred to have a flat face; a feature which can lead to breathing problems; under the new health plan the breed will be required to have a defined muzzle.

:- " waits for the rescue places to say they have a lot of these looking for homes as ther not to breed standard anymore and ther show homes no longer want ,i bet ther will be alot of these pekingese that dont qualify showwies under the new standards ,hope that made sence it did in my head 

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made sence to me :thumbsup:

i wondered this to, if the kc dramaticaly change the breed standard of any breed then surley all the people who show and do well just now will now not do well as their dogs match the old breed standard???

all the money that people have paid to have a pup for a champ, so that they can show their pup in the hopes it does well, will be for nothing as their pups probabily wont match the breed standard either :blink:

for example, gsd, show ones have slopping backs, working have straight backs, if the kc decided that the standard was to go back to the working way (the way they should be) all the gsd show will have the wrong shape of dog :unsure:

i totaly agree that things need to change im just wondering what will happen to all these dogs out their who were once the best of the best and will probabily now be classed lowest of the low :blink:

or have i got this wrong?? :unsure:

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you put it much better than i did katie ,im crap with trying to say what i mean but you pretty much sumed it up :thumbsup:

 

[k4tie-d]

The Kennel Club is releasing the first of these new breed standards today, for the Pekingese, and has taken a tough line with the breed following extensive and abortive consultations.  This is set to radically improve the health of the Pekingese which for nearly a hundred years was bred to have a flat face; a feature which can lead to breathing problems; under the new health plan the breed will be required to have a defined muzzle.

:- " waits for the rescue places to say they have a lot of these looking for homes as ther not to breed standard anymore and ther show homes no longer want ,i bet ther will be alot of these pekingese that dont qualify showwies under the new standards ,hope that made sence it did in my head 

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made sence to me :thumbsup:

i wondered this to, if the kc dramaticaly change the breed standard of any breed then surley all the people who show and do well just now will now not do well as their dogs match the old breed standard???

all the money that people have paid to have a pup for a champ, so that they can show their pup in the hopes it does well, will be for nothing as their pups probabily wont match the breed standard either :blink:

for example, gsd, show ones have slopping backs, working have straight backs, if the kc decided that the standard was to go back to the working way (the way they should be) all the gsd show will have the wrong shape of dog :unsure:

i totaly agree that things need to change im just wondering what will happen to all these dogs out their who were once the best of the best and will probabily now be classed lowest of the low :blink:

or have i got this wrong?? :unsure:

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you put it much better than i did katie ,im crap with trying to say what i mean but you pretty much sumed it up :thumbsup:

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i understood you nicky :huggles:

 

[bertha]

These breeds are not going to change over night, it is impossible to do that, but from now on breeders of Pekes GSDs etc will have to try and change to adhere to the new standard.

Yeas ago I worked for a lady who had 35 pekes! I groomed them daily, they could run about freely without getting puffed out, in fact a lot of them got out one day when the bin men left the gate open.

Boy did we have a time trying to round them up, this was in an area of big detached houses with big gardens, loads of plants for little dogs to hide in. It too ages and it was amazing how fast and far they all went!!!!!!! We got them all back eventually. The pekes that were shown by her had coats, but not like the puff ball we see now, they had legs you could see when they moved. Their faces were not so pushed in and they could breathe properly. This was in the late 50's. I look at pekes now and they have been ruined.

My father had two or three, all used to go on long walks with him running about off the lead having fun, you couldn't do that with pekes today.

So heres hoping the KC and all breeders will wake up before it is too late and get their dogs tested, have dna samples taken, the works.

 

[anniewhippet]

I have a question.....................due to the now much discussed programme the KC has issued various statements etc for the future. Cathie you have rightly stated that this programme has triggered this action but you also say that it is many years overdue.

But during my years in the breed and an on/off breed club committee member can I ask why these issues i.e genetic diversity, health problems etc. were not a major point on the relevant agendas and then taken forward to the KC? And reported on by the Breed Council to the various clubs & their membership.

I can remember the 'odd' question arising but there never appeared to be any wide sweeping major concerns for the health of the whippet coming back from that.

I am not totally defending the KC in this but surely without concrete evidence put before them they cannot act on an all breed front?

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Annie, the point is that if we take steps now to test our dogs, increase genetic diversity and reduce inbreeding levels we will have a healthier population as a whole and be far less likely to run up the cul de sacs currently being experienced by breeds such as the cavalier (inevitible if the close breeding one sees routinely continues) It is well known that the whippet breed has some history of heart problems, PRA and deafness among the diseases that can easily be tested for. It is better to catch the problem now than to carry on carelessly until these issues are a real problem for the breed. In the USA whippets are routinely tested for such problems, they are well ahead of us. The KC have the evidence that heart health is a concern in the whippet, if they won't put us on a list for compulsory testing the Breed Council should ask them to.

The KC can act for the whippet by following the suggestions made by the researchers at Imperial college and applying them to all breeds NOW.

It would be unforgivable to wait until there are as you say "wide sweeping concerns". It is too late then. :nuke:

Cathie

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I was not suggesting that we wait before evaluating the situation at all as I care very much for the breed.

I just asked the question that as there are such strong opinions on health in the whippet why it had not been discussed before, as you did say it was many years overdue, and action taken via the breed clubs & the breed council (& then to the KC).

There is an awful lot of information & discussion on 'forums' about the problems but I wondered if/when it had gone to the breed clubs. I understand that the EAWC (from their newsletter) request any written documentation on health problems to be sent to them, as no doubt other clubs do, but wondered what sort of response any of them had before this programme and the subsequent forum discussions.

 

[maggie217]

for example, gsd, show ones have slopping backs, working have straight backs, if the kc decided that the standard was to go back to the working way (the way they should be) all the gsd show will have the wrong shape of dog :unsure:
or have i got this wrong?? :unsure:

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The present GSD standard is as following:

"...back in a smooth line without disrupting flowing topline, slightly sloping from front to back. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be rejected. Loin broad, strong, well muscled. Croup long, gently curving downwards to tail without disrupting flowing topline. Short, steep or flat croups undesirable."

The present curved/roached backs that are seen winning in the show ring do not fit the GSD standard but they are still put up as the standard imo is not interpreted honestly. But such dogs are still put up..so what good does the Standard do?

The GSD/Alsation (working or show) always had a slightly sloping back as in the standard.

Pauline

 

[anniewhippet]

for example, gsd, show ones have slopping backs, working have straight backs, if the kc decided that the standard was to go back to the working way (the way they should be) all the gsd show will have the wrong shape of dog :unsure:

or have i got this wrong?? :unsure:

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The present GSD standard is as following:

"...back in a smooth line without disrupting flowing topline, slightly sloping from front to back. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be rejected. Loin broad, strong, well muscled. Croup long, gently curving downwards to tail without disrupting flowing topline. Short, steep or flat croups undesirable."

The present curved/roached backs that are seen winning in the show ring do not fit the GSD standard but they are still put up as the standard imo is not interpreted honestly. But such dogs are still put up..so what good does the Standard do?

The GSD/Alsation (working or show) always had a slightly sloping back as in the standard.

Pauline

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Excuse my ignorance if I'm wrong but I think I remember correctly a discussion many years ago with a GSD breeder (Rach used to handle/child handle with his male) that the 'roach' type back was Germanic type and the slightly sloping backs which he had were to the UK standard. I also remember two 'camps' in the breed but this was before the easing of movement for dogs so the 'Germanic' type were not seen here so much.

 

[maggie217]

for example, gsd, show ones have slopping backs, working have straight backs, if the kc decided that the standard was to go back to the working way (the way they should be) all the gsd show will have the wrong shape of dog :unsure:

or have i got this wrong?? :unsure:

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The present GSD standard is as following:

"...back in a smooth line without disrupting flowing topline, slightly sloping from front to back. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be rejected. Loin broad, strong, well muscled. Croup long, gently curving downwards to tail without disrupting flowing topline. Short, steep or flat croups undesirable."

The present curved/roached backs that are seen winning in the show ring do not fit the GSD standard but they are still put up as the standard imo is not interpreted honestly. But such dogs are still put up..so what good does the Standard do?

The GSD/Alsation (working or show) always had a slightly sloping back as in the standard.

Pauline

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Excuse my ignorance if I'm wrong but I think I remember correctly a discussion many years ago with a GSD breeder (Rach used to handle/child handle with his male) that the 'roach' type back was Germanic type and the slightly sloping backs which he had were to the UK standard. I also remember two 'camps' in the breed but this was before the easing of movement for dogs so the 'Germanic' type were not seen here so much.

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Annie

As I understand it the "roach" type back does originate in the German lines, and that is the fashion that now seems to be followed here by some breeders. There are indeed "two camps" in the GSD fraternity. But the roach back whatever its origin does not match the UK Standard.

Pauline

 

[Seraphina]

I think it's an interesting subject, but as this is a Whippet board, we're just shouting into a bucket if we discuss Pekes and Danes here.

As for Whippets, I think that our standard does not describe an unfunctional, unhealthy breed. The application of the standard, or the idiosyncratic interpretation of the standard by some judges, contributes to the rewarding of some extremes, but I do not feel our breed standards need any tweaking.

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That is true, but this new legislation is about health of purebred dogs, and problems caused by selective breeding and we should be looking what happened to other breeds. Whippet, in this moment, is a structurally sound dog, our standard does not call for anything extreme, if all breeds were like a Whippet that part of the changes would not be necessary.

However, GSD were sound 50 years ago, there is nothing wrong with their standard, it is a blueprint for a sound dog, yet what the show GSDs are is anything but sound.

And yes, Whippet is still considered a healthy breed, but here in OZ, only 30 years ago Cavalier was considered a healthy breed.

As you say Karen, we need to have our dogs' heart and eyes tested. I am not sure if mine need hearing tests, I am always amazed how they hear, wherever they are in the house or garden, if I touch my car keys or open the fridge.

 

[Silas]

These breeds are not going to change over night, it is impossible to do that, but from now on breeders of Pekes GSDs etc will have to try and change to adhere to the new standard.

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Quite right. It will only change once the "new intake" of puppies come on the scene and start to make the difference. Existing show dogs I expect will continue to do well. After all you can't change past generations. It will open up opportunities for some dogs who previously were discounted but I suspect that most will have been sold on to pet homes.

I wonder if breeders will be getting in touch with people they sold pets to if they think those puppies may produce stock nearer to the new standards. Just a musing.

 

[dragonfly]

These breeds are not going to change over night, it is impossible to do that, but from now on breeders of Pekes GSDs etc will have to try and change to adhere to the new standard.

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Quite right. It will only change once the "new intake" of puppies come on the scene and start to make the difference. Existing show dogs I expect will continue to do well. After all you can't change past generations. It will open up opportunities for some dogs who previously were discounted but I suspect that most will have been sold on to pet homes.

I wonder if breeders will be getting in touch with people they sold pets to if they think those puppies may produce stock nearer to the new standards. Just a musing.

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If that happens and previously unconsidered dogs and bitches are used it will have the added benefit of increasing genetic diversity....excellent news.

Mind you I am glad I am not a Peke judge, it will be a nightmare, you would really annoy nearly everyone no matter what you did (w00t) I can forsee factions and splits...hideous.

Imagine running a seminar, what do you do make a model which matches the new breed standard.

What a mess, the KC will need to have helplines

I need to go look at a Peke forum, I bet they are using up their bandwidth quotient at super speed.

Cathie

 

[wild whippies]

The thing is, when you breed something out of a breed, it's gone forever. So if every Pekinese in the world has what's seen as an overtly short muzzle, there's no way you can breed it back into the dogs because it's already gone.

Unless someone, somewhere has been breeding dogs for decades to look like the original dogs that were registered with the KC then I doubt any breed could revert back to type. The only possible exceptions being dogs that have been bred for a working purpose but then why would they want their dogs KC registered anyway?

I know a man who devoted most of his life to breeding and working terriers and he has a very low opinion of the Kennel Club and what pedigree breeders have done to dogs.

The KC are in my eyes going to have to open up their closed stud dogs registers, accepting dogs that are either non-KC registered or imports from other countries - something will that be very interesting for the likes of pedigree whippet racing organisations.

For some dogs, it may well be too late and the breed will have to be re-invented but going on the backlash the AKC have experienced with Dalmations, I think these dogs would struggle to get acceptance and / or registration.

There's another thing, all this new breeding will produce more dogs, we are not like the Americans where a third of it's population keep dogs and there'll be homes eagerly waiting. A country which is also noted for it's acceptance of working and hunting dogs in society.

I predict somes breeds of dogs will be on the brink of extinction within this country because it will either be too difficult to revert back to type or some breeders will simply refuse to after what may have been decades of working towards a breed type. I also suspect a lot of dogs in the future will no longer be KC registered and pet homes will be looking for hardy mongrels rather than blue blooded pedigree dogs.

For me personally, I think it'll be really interesting to see what happens in the future but regardless of fashions and phases, I'll always have the company of a dog.