Line Breeding

[Seraphina]

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You can, but it won't stop people breeding to sell without papers, or they use false ones. All KC registrations are taken on trust, the KC hope people will be honest when registering their puppies. I know for a fact that somebody who used to breed near where I live mated father to daughter, son to mother, sisters and brothers. None of the pedigrees were correct, but how can you prove it without dna testing. The breeder in question thankfully has gone out of whippets, his dogs were so muddled up I doubt if prospective owners got the whippet they wanted!
Sad but true, how can we stop it? :- "

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Unfortunately, you cannot. Unless there are some genetically impossible colours coming up.

However, soon we should be able to do DNA paternity test on all litters. My bitches are all DNA profiled, so it would be very easy to swab my pups, their sire and test. Provided we can trust the company doing the tests.

I can see that soon we will not be able to register pups unless they are microchipped and profiled.

 

[Seraphina]

talking about inbreeding and genetic diversity - when some breeders use the same dog on numerous bitches in the same quarter how do we expect the breed to improve on health issues

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By saying this you seem to be implyng that the dog used on numerous bitches has some form of health issue , are you not.

Ive recently used a dog who ,I suppose ,one could say has been used on numerous bitches. .

One of the reasons I used him was was that he is a complete out cross to my bitch ,

Plus, he had breed type that I was after that I hoped would compliment my bitch, Plus passing on super quality whippets to WHATEVER line the bitches were , and not least of all ,super temperament .

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I do believe that there should be some limit on how many litters a dog is allowed to sire. I have heard recently about stud dog in the USA who has sired some 300 litters (not a whippet), which sounds enormous. However, as that breed is rather numerous in the states, 300 litters is only a fraction of the total of all litters born.

On the other hand, Dondelayo Statue sired here in the 1970s so many litters (some say over 50), that there was hardly a bitch who did not produce a litter by him. There were not many Whippets here in those times.

Even now, the number of Whippets here in OZ is considerably lower than in UK or USA. If there would be say limit of 20 litters in a lifetime of stud dog, that may make no difference to most dogs in OZ, while it would be a huge restriction on US breeders.

Maybe say that if a dog is to be used more than 3times in his life, he has to have every test available, yearly heart check etc?

I am still reeling from the idea that the cavalier sired 26 litters after he has been diagnosed with Syringeomyelia.

 

[seaspot_run]

You have to put DNA on file here now if you have a sire who sires more than 10 litters in a calendar year.

 

[doris]

i wouldnt personaly do this myself ,although im no breeder ,but do plan on having one litter off my tia ,but would never dream of using her father or brother come to that  :blink: althou i see from past post you have linned you bitch to her father shurley this is not a good thing to do  :blink: i mean we wouldnt as humans be having babies with father and daught or brother and sister would we (well not unless your some twisted perv ) :unsure:

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this looks like it will be an interesting topic ,i will look at my dogs pedigrees later and see what sort of  breeding has occured along the way ,so most of you think that line breeding from very close relatives is a no no ,but further down the line is ok then ?how far back is safe thou ?

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You really need to look at your dogs pedigrees before you consider breeding from them :thumbsup:

 

[kerrie.picolo@btinternet.com]

i wouldnt personaly do this myself ,although im no breeder ,but do plan on having one litter off my tia ,but would never dream of using her father or brother come to that  :blink: althou i see from past post you have linned you bitch to her father shurley this is not a good thing to do  :blink: i mean we wouldnt as humans be having babies with father and daught or brother and sister would we (well not unless your some twisted perv ) :unsure:

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this looks like it will be an interesting topic ,i will look at my dogs pedigrees later and see what sort of  breeding has occured along the way ,so most of you think that line breeding from very close relatives is a no no ,but further down the line is ok then ?how far back is safe thou ?

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You really need to look at your dogs pedigrees before you consider breeding from them :thumbsup:

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i personall y think it would benfit our breed if all breeding stock was DNA

 

[marier05]

Very interesting topic, can someone tell me a bit more about what COI means? Thanks :thumbsup:

 

[Canteronboy]

By saying this you seem to be implyng that the dog used on numerous bitches has some form of health issue , are you not.

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I certainly did not imply the dog had a health issue. If a breeder uses their line bred dog on all of their line bred bitches (same kennel). You are automatically reducing the gene diveresity and increasing the likelyhood of recessive traits, which could be health related, becoming dominant and therfore affect the breeds future wellbeing.

 

[~JO~]

I have a pedigree database with the ability to calculate COI over a varied number of generations. What is the accepted number of generations to use in this calculation ? and what would be an average and what would be Ideal COI if in breeding has already been used in a breeding program ?

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here in Finland it seems to be a spirit, that calculating coi is for nothing, unless you take in atleast 8 generations. Personally I prefer 10.

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Does anyone know how many generations for example the Swedish KC issue their percentage limits on? Or other countries.....

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5 generations.

Henrik

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Many thanks Henrik

 

[Canteronboy]

Very interesting topic, can someone tell me a bit more about what COI means?  Thanks  :thumbsup:

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Try reading COI Explained

It may Help :thumbsup:

 

[Eceni]

Very interesting topic, can someone tell me a bit more about what COI means?  Thanks  :thumbsup:

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Try reading COI Explained

It may Help :thumbsup:

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and this, from the canine diversity project

CoI

in very simple terms, it's the Coefficient of Inbreeding, as defined by an equation that allows the degree of inbreeding to be expressed in percentage terms.

good luck

e

 

[doris]

Very interesting topic, can someone tell me a bit more about what COI means?  Thanks  :thumbsup:

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Try reading COI Explained

It may Help :thumbsup:

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I'm a bit thick and have to see things in a very basic way before I can start to understand them :b

Its the percentage thing that I'm struggling with - for example, in a brother/sister mating, its says that the COI percentage is about 25 - does it literally mean that if there were 100 dogs in the pedigree, 25 of them would be the same dog?

I'm blushing even as I'm typing this, cos it seems that everyone else gets it except me!!! :unsure:

 

[Canteronboy]

The coefficient of inbreeding, is the probability that a dog with two identical genes received both genes from one ancestor.

I am sorry I cannot expalin it any better, I have been trying to make it easier to understand. Maybe someone else can clarify for both of us

 

[Seraphina]

mating, its says that the COI percentage is about 25 - does it literally mean that if there were 100 dogs in the pedigree, 25 of them would be the same dog?

No that means that the probability is that about 25% of their genes are same.

 

[Seraphina]

Now, talking about not being bright, I have downloaded the FSx calculator, but cannot work out how to enter the data. So I downloaded another - CompuPed Millenioum and I still cannot work out out how to enter the data. :unsure:

With the FSx, I get something with cells, but I cannot type in it or paste in it. :b

Is it me, or can I blame it on my computer?

 

[Sarsanet]

Now, talking about not being bright, I have downloaded the FSx calculator, but cannot work out how to enter the data.  So I downloaded another  - CompuPed Millenioum and I still cannot work out out how to enter the data.  :unsure:
With the FSx, I get something with cells, but I cannot type in it or paste in it.  :b

Is it me, or can I blame it on my computer? 

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Oh, good Lord, Lida the above proves I'm not very bright either! I don't understand a word of what you've just said!

When looking at COI, I presume the lower the number the better. How low is good & how high is bad? Is there a number above which you should never go? I'm trying really hard to get my head around this & as I'm presently researching stud dogs I'm doing my best to come up with the best result but I'm struggling.

In some 7 generation pedigrees I have created by Breedmate there are 2 different percentage numbers by the names of the dogs. What are they?

Clearly they are telling me something & I'd like to know just waht exactly.

Gail.

 

[~Annie~]

Now, talking about not being bright, I have downloaded the FSx calculator, but cannot work out how to enter the data.  So I downloaded another  - CompuPed Millenioum and I still cannot work out out how to enter the data.  :unsure:
With the FSx, I get something with cells, but I cannot type in it or paste in it.  :b

Is it me, or can I blame it on my computer? 

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You need to use your computers Note Pad to create a .txt document that has the names of the dogs concerned ... if you go into Help in FSpeed and click on Input File Format it shows you how that document should look. When you have finished click on File in FSpeed (top left corner), then Open, browse for the .txt file you created, double click, and the data opens in FSpeed.

HTH

Annie

 

[doris]

The coefficient of inbreeding, is the probability that a dog with two identical genes received both genes from one ancestor.
I am sorry I cannot expalin it any better, I have been trying to make it easier to understand. Maybe someone else can clarify for both of us

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mating, its says that the COI percentage is about 25 - does it literally mean that if there were 100 dogs in the pedigree, 25 of them would be the same dog?

No that means that the probability is that about 25% of their genes are same.

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See, told you I was a bit thick, I didn't know it meant it was the genes, which is what everyone has been talking about in the first place (w00t) :lol:

I still don't understand it very well, but at least I am now heading in the right direction :b Thanks! :thumbsup:

 

[jayp]

Heres a radical thought, why dosnt every whippet breeder who is concerned about the genetic future of the breed and there are lots out there, ask their breed clubs (as a member) if a single database can be set up which enables breeders to simply request the COI of a given dog.

It would need to be a single database rather than everyone struggling to do their own. These COI s would then be FACT for all to consider, when doing your own there is the danger of mistakes being made in the input file.

If enough people lobby the breed clubs in this request it could be taken to Breed Council and from there to the KC if agreed

If the KC are not forthcoming then maybe Breed Council could provide this as a sevice to breeders and the results published annually

It dosnt really help matters if some are doing COI s to 8 generations, some to 10 the results will be variable.

The computer cannot be wrong but the data put into it is open to human error

If there is one database all will be calculated using the same format to the same no of generations

As seen in TWA as wonderful as it is if everone is able to add data mistakes can be made

If you are a member of a Breed Club then make this request in writing if possible to be discussed at their next meeting

Breed clubs are there to help their members and im sure it would make for some very interesting meetings!!!!!!!

 

[Seraphina]

NWith the FSx, I get something with cells, but I cannot type in it or paste in it.  :b

Is it me, or can I blame it on my computer? 

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You need to use your computers Note Pad to create a .txt document that has the names of the dogs concerned ... if you go into Help in FSpeed and click on Input File Format it shows you how that document should look. When you have finished click on File in FSpeed (top left corner), then Open, browse for the .txt file you created, double click, and the data opens in FSpeed.

HTH

Annie

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Thanks for the tip, I will have another try, when I get a moment. I did do one txt file but did not manage to get it work either. I have to admit I was not trying very hard as I had nowhere enough of generations to work with. I am getting close to having full 10 generations, now. I will follow your instructions and see

 

[posh totty]

Heres a radical thought,  why dosnt every whippet breeder who is concerned about the genetic future of the breed and there are lots out there, ask their breed clubs (as a member) if a single database can be set up which enables breeders to simply request the COI of a given dog.  It would need to be a single database rather than everyone struggling to do their own.  These COI s would then be FACT for all to consider, when doing your own there is the danger of mistakes being made in the input file.

If enough people lobby the breed clubs in this request it could be taken to Breed Council and from there to the KC if agreed

If the KC are not forthcoming then maybe Breed Council could provide this as a sevice to breeders and the results published annually

It dosnt really help matters if some are doing COI s  to 8 generations, some to 10 the results will be variable.

The computer cannot be wrong but the data put into it is open to human error

If there is one database all will be calculated using the same format to the same no of generations

As seen in TWA as wonderful as it is if everone is able to add data mistakes can be made

If you are a member of a Breed Club then make this request in writing if possible to be discussed at their next meeting

Breed clubs are there to help their members and im sure it would make for some very interesting meetings!!!!!!!

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thats an excellent idea! thank you :thumbsup: