Movement

[Riley]

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There has been much discussion recently about the differences between all rounders and specialists, i.e. their placings, but I don't think movement came into the equation. I would be interested to hear which of you prefer foreign judges, specialists or all rounders. I personally would probably enter under any of them if I thought they'd like my type.

 

[seaspot_run]

On subject of Movement - from experience of watching many judges during many years stewarding - give or take a few - I have never seen a judge notlook at side and back and forth movement - I just feel that sometimes some judges may have/see something differently to me.

They have to look at it, but it doesn't mean they have to take it into much account if they want to put their emphasis elsewhere.

My mother was a licensed judge for many years (she did herding, hounds, and toys) and she was quite well-liked as a judge of Alsatians. When she was going for her license in that breed she went to a big specialty show where they had a judge's education workshop on the breed and was told point-blank that the coming and going movement was of much much lesser importance than side movement, and that a dog with a great profile gait should ALWAYS beat a dog which appeared sounder on the line but was less impressive from the side. Alsatians are a side movement breed.

Then there are little toy breed dogs which are judged almost exclusively on the up and back--the side profile is used to look at things like topline and tail and head carriage, but not to look for reach and drive from the side.

So, it varies by breed. I can't imagine anyone telling a Whippet judge to ignore the soundness on the line. I just think that a lot of judges attach less importance to it than they do side movement. The standard wording does appear to emphasize side gait as a key component of type, since it is addressed under general appearance but true gait is not. I'm not sure if that was the original intent (I think in those days, we were just trying to avoid hackney and mincing gait), but that is what has happened over time.

 

[seaspot_run]

I saw a whippet shown in Maryland to BOS that crippled around the ring like a German Shepherd, and we all know how awful that breed has become with the selective breeding program that has been implemented by the top breed designers in that breed currently. It makes you wanna gag!
Lanny

Good heavens--Maryland is part of my home turf!! I hope it wasn't one of mine!



I suppose I wasn't at that show, whichever one it was. Why do you come all the way to Maryland for shows? Next time, don't be a stranger.

Karen

 

[seaspot_run]

There has been much discussion recently about the differences between all rounders and specialists, i.e. their placings, but I don't think movement came into the equation. I would be interested to hear which of you prefer foreign judges, specialists or all rounders. I personally would probably enter under any of them if I thought they'd like my type.

My point I made earlier is that here in the USA, the foreign judges with a few exceptions aren't really putting up anything that doesn't win under the American judges, too. It doesn't make a big difference. When a judge from Scandanavia or Australia or Italy or Japan looks at our entries, they tend to like the same dogs American judges do. UK is a little different--that's about half and half--I've seen some judges who obviously have a different emphasis, but those aren't the ones who get asked back a lot. The ones who get asked back a lot put up the same dogs who win under the US judges. Canadian judges, IMO, judge more like I would EXPECT a European judge to judge. Foreign judges are a LITTLE more open to putting up a solid or a dilute than an American judge, but if you put the right face on the lead, you can level the playing field for rare colors over here that way, too.

Wins under foreign judges have a bit more cachet, though. Wins under breeder judges are more respected than wins under all-arounders. But I don't find overall that there is a clear advantage for one sort over the other. I will show under any honest judge who hasn't already shown themselves to be completely disinterested in the style of dog I am showing. There are all-arounders who are very good Whippet judges and as good as any breeder/judge or better, IMO, because they judge the whole dog by the whole standard and aren't hung up on the fads and trends.

 

[bertha]

Why? Surely we have enough well respected judges in this country? What can they bring to whippet judging that we don't all ready have?

A different opinion. I thoroughly enjoy entering dogs under foreign judges.

Maybe, but under KC rules you should judge to the UK breed standard regardless of where you come from.

 

[liza]

There has been much discussion recently about the differences between all rounders and specialists, i.e. their placings, but I don't think movement came into the equation. I would be interested to hear which of you prefer foreign judges, specialists or all rounders. I personally would probably enter under any of them if I thought they'd like my type.

i would my self entre under any judge as i have in the past

i do have a prefrence i like the american judges as to me they make you work they judge on movement as i have been under a few american judges as i said before they move you round the ring up and down you can be pulled out first by the time he or she has moved you all a couple of times you can end up at the back of the line up as we all know a whippet is a sight hound

if he / she is good mover then the conformation is right

 

[bertha]

There has been much discussion recently about the differences between all rounders and specialists, i.e. their placings, but I don't think movement came into the equation. I would be interested to hear which of you prefer foreign judges, specialists or all rounders. I personally would probably enter under any of them if I thought they'd like my type.

i would my self entre under any judge as i have in the past

i do have a prefrence i like the american judges as to me they make you work they judge on movement as i have been under a few american judges as i said before they move you round the ring up and down you can be pulled out first by the time he or she has moved you all a couple of times you can end up at the back of the line up as we all know a whippet is a sight hound

if he / she is good mover then the conformation is right

Liza, how many American judges have you shown your dogs under?

 

[liza]

There has been much discussion recently about the differences between all rounders and specialists, i.e. their placings, but I don't think movement came into the equation. I would be interested to hear which of you prefer foreign judges, specialists or all rounders. I personally would probably enter under any of them if I thought they'd like my type.

i would my self entre under any judge as i have in the past

i do have a prefrence i like the american judges as to me they make you work they judge on movement as i have been under a few american judges as i said before they move you round the ring up and down you can be pulled out first by the time he or she has moved you all a couple of times you can end up at the back of the line up as we all know a whippet is a sight hound

if he / she is good mover then the conformation is right

Liza, how many American judges have you shown your dogs under?

about 4 out of the 4 done well under 3 had ccs and rccs with my mums dogs

 

[GotWhippet?]

Why? Surely we have enough well respected judges in this country? What can they bring to whippet judging that we don't all ready have?

A different opinion. I thoroughly enjoy entering dogs under foreign judges.

Maybe, but under KC rules you should judge to the UK breed standard regardless of where you come from.

Who says they don't?

If the standards are so very very different then why do champion dogs get exported all over the world and gain a championship title in the new country which has different standard.

Just points out the fact that an outstanding example of the breed can win anywhere and that has happened.

 

[seaspot_run]

Other than size and pigment, there are not a whole lot of differences in Whippet standards. All an American judge should have to do is to not put up too big and not penalize too light, but otherwise, judge about the same as they would back home--IF what we're talking about are standards. Now, what an American judge would be lacking is knowledge of who has been winning and also knowledge of what styles are generally being preferred by UK exhibitors and judges. Americans also are used to seeing a different presentation style. No doubt dogs shown more like American judges are used to seeing them shown will look initially more appealing to their eyes. So, that's a difference.

The #1 thing that would keep a lot of top UK dogs from doing well here is pigment/eye color, and the #1 thing would keep a lot of our top dogs from doing well over there is height and bulk, but there is plenty of overlap. Americans have a very keen interest in foreign lines and many of our top breeders continue to incorporate blood from the UK, and elsewhere.

 

[Mispickel45]

Other than size and pigment, there are not a whole lot of differences in Whippet standards. All an American judge should have to do is to not put up too big and not penalize too light, but otherwise, judge about the same as they would back home--IF what we're talking about are standards. Now, what an American judge would be lacking is knowledge of who has been winning and also knowledge of what styles are generally being preferred by UK exhibitors and judges. Americans also are used to seeing a different presentation style. No doubt dogs shown more like American judges are used to seeing them shown will look initially more appealing to their eyes. So, that's a difference.
The #1 thing that would keep a lot of top UK dogs from doing well here is pigment/eye color, and the #1 thing would keep a lot of our top dogs from doing well over there is height and bulk, but there is plenty of overlap. Americans have a very keen interest in foreign lines and many of our top breeders continue to incorporate blood from the UK, and elsewhere.

Great answer, well said.

 

[JAX]

Hi all. Judging in the UK is a situation that is unique and does not conform to any other showing situation I am aware of world wide, except, perhaps, in the case of specialty judging in countries outside the UK where there are a substantial number of entries. The reality is the UK show scene -- with less than 40 shows a year with CCs available -- and CCs are the only thing that counts towards a title -- is the most difficult arena to gain a championship -- except perhaps in France, where they deliberately stack the deck against any non-French bred dogs by disqualifying them because they are - ohmigosh, at least a half a centimetre taller than our ridiculous breed standard which corresponds to how whippets raised 40 or 50 years ago and ignored by us completely unless a non-French bred dog wins at the shows that determine champilonship eligibility, in which case we come up with scenario B -- invented to disqualify the non-French entry by some speciouus clause found in the breed standard no one in their right mind has paid any attention to -- until the Fr.Ch. supremacy is challenged (which is how they have disqualified from French Ch. titles earned - both a Falconcrag and a Boxing Helena's whippet in recent years).
In the US you have zillion shows, with most being small entries, and the largest being only the specialy shows held nationally and regionally a handful of times a year. The rest of the time the whippet entry is usually under 20 dogs, and dogs are earning points towards an AM.Ch. title. Just as they are in Canada. There are not the hordes of whippets you see in the UK ring where there are so few CCs on offer. There are limited dogs, mostly regional, hoping to gain a 'major' in a show which may, depending on where you live, have as few as a half a dozen whippets entered to gain the 'major' points needed to qualify a dog for its Am.Ch. title. The same applies in Canada except we do not have majors -- we have points tied to the number of dogs entered, and folks in England, let me tell you, most of your classes have more dogs entered than are required to gain a major, either in the USA or to gain the points needed to establish qualifications for points towards a win in Canada. Over here, if your bank account is good, if you like to spend your weekends travelling to dog shows, you stand a good chance of 'finishing' a champion with scarcely any of the competition UK entries face.

All this said, having attended a whole two US championship shows this year and only four Canadian ones, I can tell you that at all of the shows I have attended I have seen a handful of really decent dogs looking AT LEAST as good or better than, most of the non-champion UK entries, but I have also seen the rest of the entry looking pretty awful and abysmal. I saw a whippet shown in Maryland to BOS that crippled around the ring like a German Shepherd, and we all know how awful that breed has become with the selective breeding program that has been implemented by the top breed designers in that breed currently. It makes you wanna gag!

The reason the UK judge has so littlle time to judge entries is the sheer volume of entries in the UK vs the US or Canada. In Canada, the judge is 'expected' to give at least 2.5 minutes to each individual entry. That works out, roughly, to seeing not more than 25 dogs an hour. During that hour, with much fewer dogs in any breed entered, very often a judge can judge almost ALL the hound group, including whippets. At the shows I was at on Sunday, which included a Sighthound specialty, judging was completed in less than 2 hours.

So when you hear great show results from over here you have to factor in the realization that judges here have far fewer entries, the entires are usually far lower in quality than I have personally ever seen in the typical UK show ring with 200 plus whippet entries alone, and judges therefore have a far lower bar to meet because they do not know the breed well, if at all, as most are all rounders, vs. the UK system where many judging are breed specialists and all rounders are, if not in the minority, at least not more than half of those awarding CCs on any given year.

This does not mean there are not great whippets over here. There are, and we have a kennel full of them (BG) bred down from N. Justa Jesta and N. Ceefa Ceely. But we do not have tonnage, the judges here see far fewer dogs, they tend to know far less about the breed, and our champ titles are therefore, to be perfectly honest, a hell of a lot easier to earn, and a heck of a lot faster to gain, than you over there. I frankly don't think I could stand living and showing in the UK with the realization I might never earn a single CC (and being contented with that state of reality). I often wonder how people can stay in a breed for 20 years, never have a CC or an RCC and wrap their minds around why there are still there, two decades later with out something that gives them a point -- other than sheer love of the breed (which is frankly what empowers my son Mick and I, and keeps us in after 26 years) to continue on from.

All I can say, very frankly, is UK breeder/exhibitors are troopers of an ilk rarely if ever seen over here, where instant gratification is the norm, rather than the exception.

And that is why, in my view the UK champ title is the most important, most prestigious, most valuable, most sought after, most desirable, most coveted, most yearned for, most wonderful championship title in the world! I would rather have one UK champion in my kennel (as we do with Eng.Ch. Nevedith Ceefa Ceely) than we do with the 50 plus Cdn. and Am.Ch. whippets we have produced over several decades, because YOUR title rocks, and your title is hard earned, rarely awarded, and genuinely to be treasured for all those reasons.

Lanny

Thankyou for that post Lanny.

it explains really well the differances of `making up `a champion ,

As one who goes to shows hoping to do well , Im in whippet showing to win obviuosly , but my love of my dogs . plus meeting my friends and like minded people more than make up for `not so good days` in the ring .

Once one show is over its lets look forward to the next

As regards some of theses judges ( mainly alrounders, and some IMO who should know better ) who go for over exaggerated profile movement , should they be looking at the `up and down only , then the winning dogs wouldnt be winning anything IMO

 

[Avalonia]

I saw a whippet shown in Maryland to BOS that crippled around the ring like a German Shepherd, and we all know how awful that breed has become with the selective breeding program that has been implemented by the top breed designers in that breed currently. It makes you wanna gag!
Lanny

Good heavens--Maryland is part of my home turf!! I hope it wasn't one of mine!



I suppose I wasn't at that show, whichever one it was. Why do you come all the way to Maryland for shows? Next time, don't be a stranger.

Karen

It sure was not one of yours! It was owned and bred by someone I don't know - a young woman who is likely in her late 20s and who had three dogs with her, showing only one and the other two just there for socialization. None of the three dogs, all of which she bred, she advised me, looked like there was much effort at meeting the breed standard. A male she had with her as a companion (not every judge likes tall dogs she confided to me) was at least 24 inches tall with positively not one scad of front fill. He looked like he was on stilts.

The best of the dogs there were from the Classic kennel, and I think the breeder got BOS. She had several moderate, decent dogs, and I had no quarrel with them. When I checked their pedigrees afterwards I knew why ... she breeds along Sporting Fields lines, and our outcross line since 1991 has almost always been a dog carrying a strong SF pedigree.

Lanny

Lanny

 

[seaspot_run]

Well, I'm stumped. Of course I wanted to figure out who this dog you thought was so terrible was, but I can't find any record of a show in Maryland this year where the Classic dogs were entered, let alone did a lot of winning--unless it was back in January but I was showing at those shows.

Oh well!

I will say that Whippet entries in Maryland have been small for 2009. The point schedule is a little more favorable over the border in the PA and NJ. Most of the Maryland shows, with one exception, that I have entered in this year have been very small--not even close to a major. I would hate for someone to form their impressions of what quality is being shown here in the US by attending shows with Whippet entries that small. You should come to our Eastern specialty instead!

Our economy has affected our dog showing. Entries were quite down for most of the winter. I think things are picking up. Next weekend is our Midwest specialty and it's a good sized entry.

 

[masta]

I find this a a very strange question to come from someone who has been in whippets for so many years, who has been to seminars and has already judged
Who has told you to ingnore `back and front `movement ?

What is even stranger is that someone(judge) would listen, Stevie Wonder on a galloping horse could judge decent movement

 

[bertha]

I find this a a very strange question to come from someone who has been in whippets for so many years, who has been to seminars and has already judged
Who has told you to ingnore `back and front `movement ?

What is even stranger is that someone(judge) would listen, Stevie Wonder on a galloping horse could judge decent movement

:teehee: :teehee: :teehee:

 

[Avalonia]

Well, I'm stumped. Of course I wanted to figure out who this dog you thought was so terrible was, but I can't find any record of a show in Maryland this year where the Classic dogs were entered, let alone did a lot of winning--unless it was back in January but I was showing at those shows.Oh well!

I will say that Whippet entries in Maryland have been small for 2009. The point schedule is a little more favorable over the border in the PA and NJ. Most of the Maryland shows, with one exception, that I have entered in this year have been very small--not even close to a major. I would hate for someone to form their impressions of what quality is being shown here in the US by attending shows with Whippet entries that small. You should come to our Eastern specialty instead!

Our economy has affected our dog showing. Entries were quite down for most of the winter. I think things are picking up. Next weekend is our Midwest specialty and it's a good sized entry.

Hi Karen, I do apologize. I left Canada on 9 May and arrived in Maryland (Westminster where my friend Jalynn is an attorney (as am I) that evening. The show in question was on Sunday (mother's day) but it was NOT in Maryland but I think in Lancaster ... or nearby ... Pennsylvania. As you no doubt know the MD/Pa borders coincide at a particular point and so as we headed east from Westminster and crossed into PA I forgot the cross into another state. If you check the show in PA on that day you will see what was there and what was put up. My friend was showing her male, DuMond Ernest Hemmingway, a black and white out of one of our bitches produced from Eng.Ch. Nevedith Ceefa Ceely, who is a Cdn.Ch., and a male from Ammardan in Ohio that Jalynn and we jointly own (he is out of entirely Sporting Field's black bloodlines , but he did not place that day. Hemi's sire is the litter brother of Patsy Gilmour's top winning white bitch from past years from Sporting Fields. Hemi has picked up AKC points before, and since (going BOB most recently) and here in Canada he earned 5 points this past weekend towards his Cdn.Ch. title.

Lanny

Hope this helps you find the show I was at. I did take photos and downloaded them onto Jalynn's computer. Unfortunately, as they were not of any great importance to me, I did not keep them myself as I regarded them as clutter on my camera. I think if you look at the entries you will realize the quality (??) of the dogs I saw that day.

Lanny

 

[seaspot_run]

I do know that dog. He was WD in Maryland back in January on a day when I got BOB with our special.

Thanks for clearing that up. Well, at least a little. I looked up the record. A class male went BOB that day. The BOS was a bitch. Are you SURE it was the BOS that you did not like?

Because that was the Classic bitch with the mostly Sporting Fields pedigree. Did you mean to say she was a cripple?

Anyhow, it was a tiny tiny show. Not very representative of our area.

My mother judged the AWC Futurity this year in Atlanta. She thought that the entry as a whole was great--mostly sound dogs that fit the standard. I think that when you take the US as a whole, the glass is well more than half full.

 

[kennelmaid]

There has been much discussion recently about the differences between all rounders and specialists, i.e. their placings, but I don't think movement came into the equation. I would be interested to hear which of you prefer foreign judges, specialists or all rounders. I personally would probably enter under any of them if I thought they'd like my type.

We have the same attitude as you Patsy.................this year we have entered under foreign, specialists and all-rounders & have had some really good results. That said we are normally a little bit wary of all-rounders. We try and do our homework thoroughly first before spending our hard earned cash!!!!!

Of course there have been times over the years that we have totally mis-judge!! what a judge would like. Sometimes for the better and sometimes not.

Yvonne

 

[clardia]

There has been much discussion recently about the differences between all rounders and specialists, i.e. their placings, but I don't think movement came into the equation. I would be interested to hear which of you prefer foreign judges, specialists or all rounders. I personally would probably enter under any of them if I thought they'd like my type.

We have the same attitude as you Patsy.................this year we have entered under foreign, specialists and all-rounders & have had some really good results. That said we are normally a little bit wary of all-rounders. We try and do our homework thoroughly first before spending our hard earned cash!!!!!

Of course there have been times over the years that we have totally mis-judge!! what a judge would like. Sometimes for the better and sometimes not.

Yvonne

Both these ladies speak with lots of experience of entering both Champ shows and Open shows - Question to Lisa - how many championship shows or breed club shows do you attend in a year, or would you attend more general open shows. Just wondered also, would you say you are more successful under breed specialists or judges who judge other breeds.