wild whippies said:
beaker said:
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Multi Purpose Whippet
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Did someone say there was a previous thread similar to this? :wacko: Can someone tell me if theres a link to it? Think i mustve missed it! :thumbsup:
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i feel that breeding for one thing with complete disregard for another will just widen the devide even further, we could end up having to classify one group as an entirely different breed, maybe minature whippets, standard whippets and giant whippets in the future,(ok, a bit extreme) but by doing this our breed will be ruined
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Apparently in 1983 the whippet club tried to bridge the gap between racing and showing and offer £100 to the owners of the first five whippets to gain BOTH TITLES in this country!
It was hoped that dogs bred closely to the breed standard should be able to show their paces on the race track.
If they were sucessful they could of proved beneficial to the breed.
SO FAR THERE HAVE BEEN NO CLAIMANTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
also its harder to trace race lines back to show lines, or find out which dogs race and show as most race dogs use their RACING NAME not their KC REG/SHOW NAME :teehee:
It was hoped that dogs bred closely to the breed standard should be able to show their paces on the race track.
If they were sucessful they could of proved beneficial to the breed.
SO FAR THERE HAVE BEEN NO CLAIMANTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
also its harder to trace race lines back to show lines, or find out which dogs race and show as most race dogs use their RACING NAME not their KC REG/SHOW NAME :teehee:
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I know of one young dog who currently has 1 CC, races consistently with a reasonable amount of success & wins Obedience classes. (However, he doesn't lure-course any more because he kept uprooting the pulleys instead of chasing the lure!! :- " ) Oh, and I suspect he hunts too ......
As someone said earlier in the thread (sorry, too lazy to look back to see who it was!) it is practically impossible to have a dog in show and racing condition in the same season - and add to that there is the fact that some show owners wouldn't want to risk their dog getting injured while they are showing them. I was told by the owner of a very successful bitch that she was never allowed off the lead because there were too many brambles where they walked their dogs, and she might get a tear. (This was a number of years ago, so don't look around the Open Bitch classes now wondering which one it is!!!) :- "
As someone said earlier in the thread (sorry, too lazy to look back to see who it was!) it is practically impossible to have a dog in show and racing condition in the same season - and add to that there is the fact that some show owners wouldn't want to risk their dog getting injured while they are showing them. I was told by the owner of a very successful bitch that she was never allowed off the lead because there were too many brambles where they walked their dogs, and she might get a tear. (This was a number of years ago, so don't look around the Open Bitch classes now wondering which one it is!!!) :- "
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Once upon a time there was not such a thing as a breed standard, there were only litle skinny fast nimble and cunning dogs called Whippets. Then somebody sat down an written The Standard in attempt to describe what such a dog has to look like in order to have the above abilities. The problem is that the standard can be interpreted and misinterpreted.
There is no reason why there should be a difference between the TYPE of show Whippet and racing Whippet.
Lida
There is no reason why there should be a difference between the TYPE of show Whippet and racing Whippet.
Lida
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Vanna, what's the dogs name please? Only without it, it's hard to know how succesful it is at both racing and showing.
Seraphina, I think your bob on with your comments about breed standards. What I do feel though is that you should go with what you believe in and stick with it. My Mum over her 20+ years of showing dobermans seen trends all the time but she stuck with what she felt was her perception of good conformation. If your lucky, maybe the judge will agree with you!
Seraphina, I think your bob on with your comments about breed standards. What I do feel though is that you should go with what you believe in and stick with it. My Mum over her 20+ years of showing dobermans seen trends all the time but she stuck with what she felt was her perception of good conformation. If your lucky, maybe the judge will agree with you!
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Seraphina said:
Exactly- brilliantly articulate as usual Lida- why can't I put things as clearly as you
I really don't understand how the two have diverged so much
I'm sorry to ask a really stupid question, but what is it that judges are looking for and breeders breeding for that makes them slower than racing ones and why is this necessary.
I understand that they aim for the best conformation possible, but surely the best conformation possible should make them faster and more nimble rather than slower.
And in judges opinion what is wrong with racing types.
Having said all this I think do prefer the look of chunkier whips.
One last question (sorry to be so long winded). The racing dogs are clearly much smaller than the showing dogs and also are apparently faster. Why? Of my two dogs, Nana- the larger one at 22" and REALLY muscled is tons faster (250m in 16.3 secs) than the slight coursing bred Tess - 19" and very lightly built who only manages 17.6 secs. I think both are as fit as it is possible to get them. (these times were before Tess's probs obviously)
I've obviously got a lot to learn, but I really want to understand it. :b
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The large dog has an advantage, as it moves further with each leap. I do not know anything about racing Whippets in the UK. I have the idea that the size of racing dogs is strictly controled, exactly for this reason, am I wrong??OEH said:
I would imagine the large heavier dogs would not be so numble therefore not as good in lure coursing.
Lida
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as someone who has been in the breed a long time said to me, "whippets weren't originally meant to show or race their original purpose was to catch small game" racing and showing only really comes about when one person says to another "my dogs faster than yours or my dogs better looking"
I think the idea that in order for a whippet to gain it's title it must show an aptitude for racing is an extemely interesting idea, but sadly it would never happen, can you imagine the outcry. simarily would the racing people accept the idea that in order for a racing champion to be crowned it must be capable of passing some sort of basic assesment, size, shape, movement, both nuts present etc, I can just imagine the hissy fits if someone wasn't awarded a title because their dog couldn't run or didn't stand still.
maybe i should compromise what i feel a whippet should be
P.S just because i don't know, why arn't WCRCH titles included on kc pedigrees, or are they and i just don't have any (w00t)
I think the idea that in order for a whippet to gain it's title it must show an aptitude for racing is an extemely interesting idea, but sadly it would never happen, can you imagine the outcry. simarily would the racing people accept the idea that in order for a racing champion to be crowned it must be capable of passing some sort of basic assesment, size, shape, movement, both nuts present etc, I can just imagine the hissy fits if someone wasn't awarded a title because their dog couldn't run or didn't stand still.
maybe i should compromise what i feel a whippet should be
P.S just because i don't know, why arn't WCRCH titles included on kc pedigrees, or are they and i just don't have any (w00t)
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Vickys not far off the mark when she says about being champions as multipurpose whippets there are very few multi champions what is ment by multipurpose is a dog that could take part in many disaplines holding there own in most if not all chances of being a multipurpose champion are very slim due to people putting speed to speed looks to looks so you end up with fast dogs that loose conformation or stunning lookers who cant run most racers would do nothing at shows but are closer to the breed standard in height & weight were as most show dogs are over the height & weight limits of the breed standard the result willend with a vast difference between racing & showing whippets there
was a multi champion called Madison Moonlake who raced & coursed in all the years i have been involved with whippets & running dogs i have seen a vast change in some cases not for the best :luck: in your chosen pursuits the main thing is to enjoy the breed!! :thumbsup:
was a multi champion called Madison Moonlake who raced & coursed in all the years i have been involved with whippets & running dogs i have seen a vast change in some cases not for the best :luck: in your chosen pursuits the main thing is to enjoy the breed!! :thumbsup:
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there is no mention of weight in the breed standard
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the weight bit was ment for racing weight limits
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Show dogs are judged on conformation, that means correct skeletal structure, which should mean healthy dog built for the purpose it is bred for.
Unfortunately, and this happens in all breeds, when people try to interpret the standard they think that "good length of body" means longer the better, or "short muzzle” means shorter the better, until some breeds end up with actually inverted noses.
I am guilty of the same thing, but I am not ashamed to admit that after 30plus active involvement with purebred dogs, I am still learning. For instance; I have for years listened to people (with many years of experience) who talked about the sighthound needing a very deep chest to afford the dog's sufficient lungs space. I would therefore assume that deeper the chest ( well below the elbows) would be better. :b However, I did notice that race dogs do not have chests as deep as some of the show dogs. It was pointed out to me (quite recently) that the standard actually says; “chest deep, reaching as close to the elbows as possible”. It does not say to the elbows or past the elbows. When you think about it, if somebody asked you to park your car as close to a wall as possible, would it occur to you that it might be better to crash the car through the wall?
Another difference between the show and racing Whippets I can see is the length of body. Although this is not specified in the standard, I always considered the Whippet’s correct body length should be just little bit longer than his height at shoulder – bitches being fraction longer than dogs. It seems to me that the running dogs are more likely to be like this than the show Whippets. I suspect that the very long body results in a weakness of the spine, and therefore these dogs will not be as fast as the more short-coupled animals.
Lida
Unfortunately, and this happens in all breeds, when people try to interpret the standard they think that "good length of body" means longer the better, or "short muzzle” means shorter the better, until some breeds end up with actually inverted noses.
I am guilty of the same thing, but I am not ashamed to admit that after 30plus active involvement with purebred dogs, I am still learning. For instance; I have for years listened to people (with many years of experience) who talked about the sighthound needing a very deep chest to afford the dog's sufficient lungs space. I would therefore assume that deeper the chest ( well below the elbows) would be better. :b However, I did notice that race dogs do not have chests as deep as some of the show dogs. It was pointed out to me (quite recently) that the standard actually says; “chest deep, reaching as close to the elbows as possible”. It does not say to the elbows or past the elbows. When you think about it, if somebody asked you to park your car as close to a wall as possible, would it occur to you that it might be better to crash the car through the wall?
Another difference between the show and racing Whippets I can see is the length of body. Although this is not specified in the standard, I always considered the Whippet’s correct body length should be just little bit longer than his height at shoulder – bitches being fraction longer than dogs. It seems to me that the running dogs are more likely to be like this than the show Whippets. I suspect that the very long body results in a weakness of the spine, and therefore these dogs will not be as fast as the more short-coupled animals.
Lida
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The words in my standard are "Chest very deep with plenty of heart room, brisket deep, well defined."
The interpretation of "very deep" I think has changed over the years in the show ring. Many of the racing whippets I've seen do not have a chest that reaches the elbow in fact many have a chest that finishes well above it - and this is what we have come to know in show circles as a 'shallow' chest. I think originally when the standard was written this "shallow" chest was actually considered as "deep".
There is also the idea of the "racing front" which Macdowell Lyon discusses in his book "The Dog in Action" which I have brought up before because it made complete sense to me and seemed to all of a sudden make clear why racing people claim that their dogs have a 'straighter front' than show whippets. If you believe what this author says then racing dogs do not have straighter fronts at all - it is the length of forearm and therefore the appearance of a shallower chest that give the straight front appearance.
(However I did get howled down for this in that other thread where I brought it up and people said this author is wrong etc etc)
This explanation has always made sense to me and I believe that the "deep chests" (ie to the elbow [or heaven forbid, past the elbow) that we showies strive for (and need to have to be competitive) don't actually have to be that deep.
The interpretation of "very deep" I think has changed over the years in the show ring. Many of the racing whippets I've seen do not have a chest that reaches the elbow in fact many have a chest that finishes well above it - and this is what we have come to know in show circles as a 'shallow' chest. I think originally when the standard was written this "shallow" chest was actually considered as "deep".
There is also the idea of the "racing front" which Macdowell Lyon discusses in his book "The Dog in Action" which I have brought up before because it made complete sense to me and seemed to all of a sudden make clear why racing people claim that their dogs have a 'straighter front' than show whippets. If you believe what this author says then racing dogs do not have straighter fronts at all - it is the length of forearm and therefore the appearance of a shallower chest that give the straight front appearance.
(However I did get howled down for this in that other thread where I brought it up and people said this author is wrong etc etc)
This explanation has always made sense to me and I believe that the "deep chests" (ie to the elbow [or heaven forbid, past the elbow) that we showies strive for (and need to have to be competitive) don't actually have to be that deep.
The dog that Vanna referred to is my Bruntsfield Playaway. I would not claim that he is the fastest racer that I have had, but he is a very reliable club handicap runner, and has won a scratch Trophy in his time.
I think the best dual purpose dog that I have ever seen was Hilda Meek's black, WCRCh Koko, (Chancerick Koh-I-Noor) who came from a fantastic litter which included the 3 racing champions, C.Koh-I -Noor, Kondor and Kala, and the CC winner Kaspar..Koko himself sired many winners in all three fields, I only wish he was alive today or that I had been in a position to use him then. They were born in 1972 sired by Ebzan Noudini Bey Noir (Ladiesfield and Fleeting ) out of Nimrodel Rosefinch, who was litter sister to Ch Nimrodel Ruff, a leading sire of show and coursing winners.
Many of Gay Robertson's Moonlakes have also been succesful in all fields, and of course there was Susan Baird's Ch Sound Barrier, the only show champion to have won the major coursing trophy twice. Shirley Rawlings' Ch Chyton Copy Press was another champion winner of coursing trophies.
I do feel that the racing and show whippets have grown apart in type over the years and I greatly regret this. It has partly happened because there are too few of us who try to combine both activities, and when people are breeding for one sphere only they tend to neglect the attributes that others think more important.
Good luck to all who wish to try and breed the dual purpose whippet, I am cheered that there are still those who think it a worth while ambition. At least we and our dogs have a lot of fun trying!
I think the best dual purpose dog that I have ever seen was Hilda Meek's black, WCRCh Koko, (Chancerick Koh-I-Noor) who came from a fantastic litter which included the 3 racing champions, C.Koh-I -Noor, Kondor and Kala, and the CC winner Kaspar..Koko himself sired many winners in all three fields, I only wish he was alive today or that I had been in a position to use him then. They were born in 1972 sired by Ebzan Noudini Bey Noir (Ladiesfield and Fleeting ) out of Nimrodel Rosefinch, who was litter sister to Ch Nimrodel Ruff, a leading sire of show and coursing winners.
Many of Gay Robertson's Moonlakes have also been succesful in all fields, and of course there was Susan Baird's Ch Sound Barrier, the only show champion to have won the major coursing trophy twice. Shirley Rawlings' Ch Chyton Copy Press was another champion winner of coursing trophies.
I do feel that the racing and show whippets have grown apart in type over the years and I greatly regret this. It has partly happened because there are too few of us who try to combine both activities, and when people are breeding for one sphere only they tend to neglect the attributes that others think more important.
Good luck to all who wish to try and breed the dual purpose whippet, I am cheered that there are still those who think it a worth while ambition. At least we and our dogs have a lot of fun trying!
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Thanks for that Liz, it's nice to read about past lines and their achievements
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What about litters that vary in type too ? My dog and his siblings are so different and yet good in their different ways. Ours is definitely a coursing type, not fast, more heavily built (and 2nd in Field last out at BSFA); his sister are a lot smaller with rounder-shaped muscles, perhaps why they have been so good at racing. I wouldn't know what constitutes a good show dog, but some nieces and nephews have looked to have promise in this area as well.
At the end of the day most of us want a nice-tempered, nice-looking dog that we can compete with just for a bit of fun. Even when line-breeding for specific characteristics is followed, the whippet is not a breed that responds as well as others (as Bo Bengston says in his book) and many don't go on to excel in their particular field anyway. One of the great strengths of whippets as a breed is their variety, let's celebrate it!
At the end of the day most of us want a nice-tempered, nice-looking dog that we can compete with just for a bit of fun. Even when line-breeding for specific characteristics is followed, the whippet is not a breed that responds as well as others (as Bo Bengston says in his book) and many don't go on to excel in their particular field anyway. One of the great strengths of whippets as a breed is their variety, let's celebrate it!
It would be great to breed a total all rounder but I don't think it would be easy as shape and weight are big factors. My first whippet 18 years ago(makes me sound old) was tiny and a good racer I could tuck her under one arm and she use to enjoy rabbitting she had a slightly arched back and very deep chest. One of my current whippets that I show is very long in the back and her topline is very straight and I definitely can't put her under one arm- I really need to watch her weight. Looking in the old books the whippets looked smaller and more arched and even finer boned?? I often look at the old pictures and compare to my todays whippets
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I have often admired the pics of Koh-I-Nor, Kondor and Ch Ladiesfield Bedazzled (did he race?) looking at them with a showie's eyes.Liz Third said:
I honestly can't see why some racing/show champions could not become show champions and vice versa in a perfect world.
However, I doubt that anyone has the time to prepare, train and trial their dogs in all three fields at the same time in order to become a champion at all three. Our elite athletes don't often excel in more than one pursuit at the one time. They pick one and focus all their attention on that. Now of course I hear you say what about pentathletes and decathletes - but take them out of that arena and put them in with specialists in any one of those sports and are they as good as the ones who focus solely on those sports? I don't know, but I wouldn't think so.
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