Neutering (again)

[ILoveKettleChips]

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I admit a RED MIST does come over me when i see people Spaying or Castrating young animals before they have reached maturity  Usually on the advice of their vet , who says it will stop Pyo , cancer etc and of Course ILKC agrees with it , she is a VET after all . As I said in a MUCH earlier post , many woman get breast cancer , but we dont all have our breasts off , to prevent it do we ?
So at the end of the day I feel that people have them spayed etc to suit THEM not their dogs .

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Firstly, I really resent the suggestion that I'm part of some sort of brainwashed army of vets. Each animal is an individual and I've advised plenty people that neutering might not be the right thing to do in their case. There shouldn't be a blanket approach.

Also, your preoccupation with the age of the dog concerned is to me completely irrational - what exactly is the problem here?

Secondly, it's just not a case of vets saying it will prevent hormone-related disease - it actually does prevent hormone related disease.

Lastly, I cannot deny that some people do neuter animals for convenience reasons. Most people do find that waking up in the morning to meet thirty of the local mongrel strays on your doorstep because they can small your bitch is a bit inconvenient. However, you have total disregard for the thousands of stray and unwanted dogs which are put to sleep every day. I know you'll come back to me with a load of nonsense about sensible owners being able to control their pets to prevent breeding, but this isn't a perfect world (although your back garden might be). Mistakes can and do happen, and so when there's a way to prevent this permanently I can only recommend it . We are ALL responsible for the rows of kennels with homeless dogs in them.

 

[~JO~]

Also, your preoccupation with the age of the dog concerned is to me completely irrational - what exactly is the problem here?

Personally I have 2 issues here, firstly I find it completely unacceptable to put a dog under a GA by choice when it is still a puppy (under 12 months)

Secondly, I believe that neutering before sexual maturity will obviously alter the dogs characteristics (physical & behavioural).

I know you'll come back to me with a load of nonsense about sensible owners being able to control their pets to prevent breeding,

"NONSENSE" (w00t) (w00t) Well sensible owners do prevent breeding!! NEVER have my dogs (who are all entire) been found at a bitches doorstep, nor when we had entire bitches did we ever have 30 dogs on our doorstep. I am also aware that there are a lot of dog owners out there that are not responsible.

I am not anti-castration, but I too object to people just doing it for their convenience. And I what I bloody object to is vets continually promoting neutering as the solution to EVERY problem!!!! When I happened to mention to my locum vet, that Stanley is a bit nervous - of course the solution - have him castrated!!! How on earth would that help him. :rant: :rant:

When our border terrier had a lot of interest in his bits from the other dogs (which turned out to be full anal glands) sure enough, castration yet again the answer!! :rant:

I am not saying ILKC that you are like this at all - in fact from your posts on here I am sure you are not. I can also understand I think that if people don't want to breed that you may want them neutered. BUT what concerns me is that it is now being done in such a routine way " get you dog innoclated, micro-chipped and castrated". At least wait until the animal has reached sexual maturity and give the owner the pros AND cons. I know plenty of people that have considered neutering on here and have thoroughly researched it and have come to a logical conclusion (either way) and that works for them. But this attitude of basically scare tactics often used by vets is in my opinion completely wrong.

In the same way some vets also use this to sell food, someone I know was told by their vet that their dog would be stunted, continualy ill and die prematurely if they don't feed their complete food - how bloody unethical is that!!!

Rant over

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

At least wait until the animal has reached sexual maturity and give the owner the pros AND cons.  I know plenty of people that have considered neutering on here and have thoroughly researched it and have come to a logical conclusion (either way) and that works for them. But this attitude of basically scare tactics often used by vets is in my opinion completely wrong. 

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Yes, of course I absolutely agree that scare tactics are wrong. But as vets we are obliged to give every owner all the options - to not allow an owner this information is unfair. Our job is to give people information. One of the problems here is that these recognised benefits are often much heightened when neutering takes place prior to sexual maturity - so if you're doing it for health reasons, the younger the better. And I am continually mystified by the fear people have of GAs in young dogs - is this information based on any facts or is it just anthropomorphism? If it's facts, then I must have slept in the day they covered it in vet school ...

In the same way some vets also use this to sell food, someone I know was told by their vet that their dog would be stunted, continualy ill and die prematurely if they don't feed their complete food - how bloody unethical is that!!!

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Haven't really got words for that, but I'm ashamed to be associated!

 

[kirsty]

There are a few reasons I got Megan done and to be quite honest, the mess part wasn't one of them. I have wooden floors in a lot of my house so it would be easy cleaned up. I was concerned about mammory tumours and womb infections/pyometra. I know Pyometra can come on really suddenly and sometimes not show symptoms til the last minute. My cousin had a Tibetan Spaniel and this is what happened to her and she lost the dog so suddenly, it was heartbreaking.

The breeder/lady I got Megan from advised me to spay her sooner rather than later( at around 9months- 1yr) as she is such a frightened nervous little dog. As I said in an earlier post I got her towards the end of her season and when out in the park she would keep stopping and looking at her behind and when other dogs came up went quite hysterical. She is nervous at the best of times with other dogs and if they come bounding towards her you'd think they were trying to murder her. I have been taking her to classes and she is getting slightly more confident. So basically I feel it will BENEFIT HER not to have entire dogs follow us around the park being a nuisance. I must say some people that have dogs are really selfish. When they see their dogs being a nuisane to female dogs they just leave them to it and don't even try to drag them away. This can be very intimidating if you have a tiny frightened wee thing and something of the large breed size won't go away. On the other hand there is some really nice responsible dog owners that would come over apoligise and take action to coax their dog away. I never intentionaly got a female. I was actually looking for a male but when the chance of Megan came up, I fell in love with her. The person I got her from was going to breed from her but changed her mind that is why she was around six months. Coincidentally her breeder always spays her females when she has stopped breeding from them.

As a child we had miniature Daschunds and there were four altogether(males), unfortunately two of them were very aggressive and they had to be seperated in the end having to be kept at all times in seperate rooms. So basically you had to keep Muffin and Tammy in the living room and Jamie and Sandy in the bedroom and alternate rooms throughout the day. It was an absolute nightmare on a couple of occasions Jamie and Muffin got together and they would have fought to the death, one would be litterly hanging from the other ones neck. My Dad was told on NUMEROUS occassions from several different vets to get Muffin and Jamie neutered but he would not hear of it. The vets all told him that there was too much testosterone flying around and this was the problem. I would definitely have tried to go down the neutering path in this case. My Mum always thought they should try it, but my dad was adament that you had to keep a male dog entire. Muffin also had a bad habit of attaching himself to peoples legs!

My last dog Zak a long haired German Shepherd was not neutered. But if he'd have had an aggresive nature I may have done it or if I had been advised for a specific medical reason. I think since I had Zak (8yrs ago) there has been much more research into dogs with testicular cancer and that's why some vets advise it. The vets never suggested getting him neutered either. I know some people only get male dogs neutered if they have more than one male, or an entire female in the house.

Kirsty

 

[peony]

I am not sure where I stand on the neutering thing really, but will say that I keep 4 dogs here, one speyed girl, two entire girls and an entire male, who is used for stud work.

At the moment both girls are in season and I will admit its not really an ideal situation as Basil is going through the whiney, 'i am too sexy to eat ' stage and the girls are both literally throwing themselves at him, which doesnt help. BUT this situation will not last long and with conscientious care, life is easily managed.

When not in season, they all live together in total harmony and have no health worries, so I have no wishes to have any of them operated on. Should the behaviour of any of them change or, heaven forbid, surgery is required from a medical point of view, then I wouldnt hesitate.

I agree with letting a dog/bitch reach sexual maturity before being neutered as having seen foals castrated at an early age grow into smaller animals, I think its better to have the op done later.

 

[jools]

What a mine field this topic is!!

I did mixed breed rescue for 3 years - all of my 55 foster dogs came from the stray kennels where they would have been PTS if our rescue had been unable to take them. It was rescue policy to neuter the dogs as soon as was deemed sensible, ie. about 3 months after a bitch had been in season or for a male - as soon as he was mature (physically). There were odd exceptions, one or two of the younger males were left a little later, on vets advice, as they were very mentally immature. My first foster dog, Carra a 15 month (ish) GSD was homed very quickly as we had a ready checked home waiting for her. They were given a neutering voucher and an information sheet - which stressed that she must be speyed in two months time. They didn't, and very nearly lost Carra with Pyometra before she was 2 years of age! They hold a very different view now. The rescue also now does a follow up, making sure that the dog has been neutered.

All the 55 dogs (and many others in our other foster homes) were there because of irresponsible owners - if the world were such a perfect place, it may not matter so much, but I am of the opinion that 85% of dog owners are toss pots who shouldn't be in control of a stuffed dog, never mind a real one. Certainly in this area (North West England) it is vital that as many dogs as possible are neutered - then we wouldn't be putting almost 1,000 a year to sleep from this area alone. (And yes - that figure is correct, last year it was actually 873 PTS)

Both my X breeds are neutered, my bitch knows she is a bitch and my dog knows he is a dog!!! Of my 3 whippets, Folly is now retired - and neutered, but Fern and Sky are still being shown, (or will be shown in 6 month old Skys case), eventually they will be neutered. Nothing I have ever heard of or read about has made me reluctant to neuter.

I am most concerned to see that it was suggested that both dachis should be neutered - I would have thought that when aggression was the problem, the lower one should be neutered - making him even lower and widening the gap between the two, to neuter both was keeping the balance the same.

COR! let me get off this soap box!!!

 

[~Sarah~]

Many year ago I partly-qualified as a vet nurse (worked for about 6 years at a vet surgery) and saw many mammary tumour and pyometra ops - both very unpleasant for the bitch.

I sadly recall a Doberman that we treated following a RTA - she required a huge amount of veterinary attention, including having her leg pinned/plated before she finally recovered and went home. I can still picture her today. Some months later she was admitted one weekend with a pyometra and she died on the operating table. It was a 'closed' pyo and the caring owner had not realised she was so ill.

I acquired Bobby (Collie X) because I fostered him and then couldn't part with him. He had been handed in to a local vet by a Health Visitor who had taken him from the owners who weren't coping. The other pups had already been given away. We didn't know how old Bobby was, but he did not seem to be weaned. I dread to think what happened to the other pups.

Seeing the number of dogs in rehoming centres (the majority being crossbreeds) I feel I am in favour of neutering. I know there are many, many responsible dog owners/breeders, but there are also many, many irresponsible ones, such as where Bobby came from - presumably they had not planned a litter.

Having assisted with numerous spaying/castration ops, they are very routine and, in the majority of cases, recovery is very quick. Isn't this preferable to seeing so many dogs needing homes or being needlessly PTS? This is why I do agree with the neutering policy of most rehoming centres. :thumbsup:

I hadn't planned to have Dolly spayed as Bobby is castrated (rehoming policy), but given the incident earlier this year where they 'mated' and tied, I feel I probably will for her own safety. I would hate her to be injured if it happened again and I wasn't around, and I don't want to have to keep them separate when she is in season. In hindsight, I probably should have had a male.

I would be interested to know from those of you who are against neutering, and also keep cats, do you have your cats neutered or not?

 

[JAX]

Also, your preoccupation with the age of the dog concerned is to me completely irrational - what exactly is the problem here?

Personally I have 2 issues here, firstly I find it completely unacceptable to put a dog under a GA by choice when it is still a puppy (under 12 months)

Secondly, I believe that neutering before sexual maturity will obviously alter the dogs characteristics (physical & behavioural).

I know you'll come back to me with a load of nonsense about sensible owners being able to control their pets to prevent breeding,

"NONSENSE" (w00t) (w00t) Well sensible owners do prevent breeding!! NEVER have my dogs (who are all entire) been found at a bitches doorstep, nor when we had entire bitches did we ever have 30 dogs on our doorstep. I am also aware that there are a lot of dog owners out there that are not responsible.

I am not anti-castration, but I too object to people just doing it for their convenience. And I what I bloody object to is vets continually promoting neutering as the solution to EVERY problem!!!! When I happened to mention to my locum vet, that Stanley is a bit nervous - of course the solution - have him castrated!!! How on earth would that help him. :rant: :rant:

When our border terrier had a lot of interest in his bits from the other dogs (which turned out to be full anal glands) sure enough, castration yet again the answer!! :rant:

I am not saying ILKC that you are like this at all - in fact from your posts on here I am sure you are not. I can also understand I think that if people don't want to breed that you may want them neutered. BUT what concerns me is that it is now being done in such a routine way " get you dog innoclated, micro-chipped and castrated". At least wait until the animal has reached sexual maturity and give the owner the pros AND cons. I know plenty of people that have considered neutering on here and have thoroughly researched it and have come to a logical conclusion (either way) and that works for them. But this attitude of basically scare tactics often used by vets is in my opinion completely wrong.

In the same way some vets also use this to sell food, someone I know was told by their vet that their dog would be stunted, continualy ill and die prematurely if they don't feed their complete food - how bloody unethical is that!!!

Rant over

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Couldnt agree more JO . Youve said practically everything I think word for word , and probably did it much better too . :thumbsup: Thanks

 

[Mark Roberts]

OK time I put my oar in o

You can neuter all the animals that are brought into vets sugeries by responsible owners but the fact remains that it's the irrisponsible owner who is responsible for the 1000's of dogs put to sleep every week.

The fact is it's far to easy for people to get hold of dogs whether pedigree (that they pay for) or mongrels for free off a naibour that are then thrown out on the streets all day cos the owner doesnt want a mess on the floor or damage done to their house ect, it's these dogs that then go on to mate freely produces X amount of further unwanted pups that are given away as cute puppies that grow up to again mate freely that then keep the cycle going. :rant:

Untill we have a strictly enforced dog registration sceme wereby a breeder registers the litter then like a car signs them over to a named person thereby transfering ownership/responsibilty (simlar to how cars are registerd) then we will always have this problem of stray/unwanted dogs fouling our streets and causing accidents on the Rds ect. :rant:

Ok i'm off my soap box now. :sweating:

 

[kris]

im not pro or anti neutering.but there are far too many healthy dogs KILLED(lets not pussyfoot around it by calling it being put to sleep)each and every year. as a so called nation of animal lovers we should be ashamed of the figures.we need some form of registration scheme to make sure that if a dog is found straying we know who owns it.i also couldnt agree more with the sentiment that its far too easy to get a dog,any dog.too many idiots own dogs,they are kept as a fashion accessory,as an ego booster and as a penis extension.i think if a scheme was introduced that if you didnt get your dog spayed then you had to pay say 200 pounds a year to keep it entire,many more folk would spay because its cheaper.as it is its cheaper to do nothing.so the circle keeps going round,more unwanted dogs are born every year,and more dogs are killed every year.isnt it time that as a civilised society we started to take this seriously and to do something about it?im sure people who work in rescue centres and the rspca didnt join in order to kill dogs every week.they must have a terrible job.

 

[Rae]

Well I'm a really dreadful owner then arent I?

Both Star & Leia are neutered, both at under 12 months of age. Ofcourse I didn't do it for their benefit - so that they could have a consistent life - ie off lead running every day - not being left behiond anywhere because they were in season, always allowed in the bed or on the sofa.

I've heard loads of people saying that thier bitch isnt fit because she's just been in season - surely varying levels of fitness arent' good for an althlete?

Ofcourse it would be totally acceptable if I did breed from a bitch and then have her speyed after a few litters, when she was retired. That's OK cos she'd be old enough then. :- "

When we picked Leia up after being speyed she had a 10 minute walk when we got home.

Both Star & Leia are happy, healthy, well socilalised and much loved family members, who happen to be speyed. Where is the problem?

 

[JAX]

im not pro or anti neutering.but there are far too many healthy dogs KILLED(lets not pussyfoot around it by calling it being put to sleep)each and every year. as a so called nation of animal lovers we should be ashamed of the figures.we need some form of registration scheme to make sure that if a dog is found straying we know who owns it.i also couldnt agree more with the sentiment that its far too easy to get a dog,any dog.too many idiots own dogs,they are kept as a fashion accessory,as an ego booster and as a penis extension.i think if a scheme was introduced that if you didnt get your dog spayed then you had to pay say 200 pounds a year to keep it entire,many more folk would spay because its cheaper.as it is its cheaper to do nothing.so the circle keeps going round,more unwanted dogs are born every year,and more dogs are killed every year.isnt it time that as a civilised society we started to take this seriously and to do something about it?im sure people who work in rescue centres and the rspca didnt join in order to kill dogs every week.they must have a terrible job.

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[JAX]

Also, your preoccupation with the age of the dog concerned is to me completely irrational - what exactly is the problem here?

Personally I have 2 issues here, firstly I find it completely unacceptable to put a dog under a GA by choice when it is still a puppy (under 12 months)

Secondly, I believe that neutering before sexual maturity will obviously alter the dogs characteristics (physical & behavioural).

I know you'll come back to me with a load of nonsense about sensible owners being able to control their pets to prevent breeding,

"NONSENSE" (w00t) (w00t) Well sensible owners do prevent breeding!! NEVER have my dogs (who are all entire) been found at a bitches doorstep, nor when we had entire bitches did we ever have 30 dogs on our doorstep. I am also aware that there are a lot of dog owners out there that are not responsible.

I am not anti-castration, but I too object to people just doing it for their convenience. And I what I bloody object to is vets continually promoting neutering as the solution to EVERY problem!!!! When I happened to mention to my locum vet, that Stanley is a bit nervous - of course the solution - have him castrated!!! How on earth would that help him. :rant: :rant:

When our border terrier had a lot of interest in his bits from the other dogs (which turned out to be full anal glands) sure enough, castration yet again the answer!! :rant:

I am not saying ILKC that you are like this at all - in fact from your posts on here I am sure you are not. I can also understand I think that if people don't want to breed that you may want them neutered. BUT what concerns me is that it is now being done in such a routine way " get you dog innoclated, micro-chipped and castrated". At least wait until the animal has reached sexual maturity and give the owner the pros AND cons. I know plenty of people that have considered neutering on here and have thoroughly researched it and have come to a logical conclusion (either way) and that works for them. But this attitude of basically scare tactics often used by vets is in my opinion completely wrong.

In the same way some vets also use this to sell food, someone I know was told by their vet that their dog would be stunted, continualy ill and die prematurely if they don't feed their complete food - how bloody unethical is that!!!

Rant over

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As regard s having aggresive dogs castrated to `calm` them down ` Sorry , put it dosnt make one ounce of differance . My friend had two x breeds that were `done and still fought like cat and dog ( or should that be dog and dog !)

Firstly, I really resent the suggestion that I'm part of some sort of brainwashed army of vets

I dont think that at all ILKC. From all you previous posts I know you have animal welfare at heart , Its the `jab , chip and cut ` brigade that I object too

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Here on K9 we arnt ( generally ) talking about X breeds . but owners of whippets , wether with KC pedigree or not ,and it just makes me so cross that people feel the need to `mutilate` a puppy ! and yes I really do have a major problem with people spaying / neutering too early . Just let the animal reach maturity first . Please . I dont care if it makes it easier or not for vets , its the DOG Im thinking of .

 

[alfyn]

Firstly,in the other thread where Jax replied about speying at an early age,Im sure she was getting at the VETS who would even consider doing this to such young dogs,not at Kirsty & Mazza.

IMO,NO vet should consider speying or castrating a dog until it has reached full maturity unless for medical reasons.I think it's disgusting :rant: :rant: :rant:

ILKC,you really do love having attacks on some of us who don't agree with your opinions,don't you? I recall when you first started posting on this forum that YOU upset a few folks(me included) with your attitude,& made a few apoligies,& your sarcasm towards Jax is uncalled for!

There's some of us on here that have had dogs for many years & have obseved & learned a damm sight more than you will probably ever learn & i'm not talking about veterinary knowledge before you jump on me for that one.

I,like Dawn & others have had dogs & bitches live to a good old age without having them castrated or speyed & never had problems.

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

I really do have a major problem with people spaying / neutering too early . Just let the animal reach maturity first . Please . I dont care if it makes it easier or not for vets , its the DOG Im thinking of  .

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It makes no difference for vets. Why does it make a difference to the dog? How do you know? Did one tell you? What is so much worse about it being done at 9 months vs 12 months vs 2 years?

 

[JAX]

im not pro or anti neutering.but there are far too many healthy dogs KILLED(lets not pussyfoot around it by calling it being put to sleep)each and every year. as a so called nation of animal lovers we should be ashamed of the figures.we need some form of registration scheme to make sure that if a dog is found straying we know who owns it.i also couldnt agree more with the sentiment that its far too easy to get a dog,any dog.too many idiots own dogs,they are kept as a fashion accessory,as an ego booster and as a penis extension.i think if a scheme was introduced that if you didnt get your dog spayed then you had to pay say 200 pounds a year to keep it entire,many more folk would spay because its cheaper.as it is its cheaper to do nothing.so the circle keeps going round,more unwanted dogs are born every year,and more dogs are killed every year.isnt it time that as a civilised society we started to take this seriously and to do something about it?im sure people who work in rescue centres and the rspca didnt join in order to kill dogs every week.they must have a terrible job.

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that sounds to me more like a BIG Brother state . Its up to ME what I do with my dogs . I dont thinkn they would be able to `police` it any how , they cant keep an eye on car insuarnce let alone Dogs !

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

ILKC,you really do love having attacks on some of us who don't agree with your opinions,don't you? I recall when you first started posting on this forum that YOU upset a few folks(me included) with your attitude,& made a few apoligies,& your sarcasm towards Jax is uncalled for!

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My sarcasm toward Jax originated because she was, I felt, attacking an already vulnerable member of this forum for making a difficult decision. She can speak for herself and doesn't need defendants, I'm sure. And as long as you don't care who your opinions upset, I don't see why I should. One rule for all would be fairer!

There's some of us on here that have had dogs for many years & have obseved & learned a damm sight more than you will probably ever learn & i'm not talking about veterinary knowledge before you jump on me for that one.I,like Dawn & others have had dogs & bitches live to a good old age without having them castrated or speyed & never had problems.

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I've never proclaimed myself to be any sort of expert, veterinary or otherwise. I'm just a lowly GP who spends my days in routine consults, speaking to dog owners and examining dogs. That's what my opinions are based on, and I don't think I should apologise for them. :b

And good for you for having healthy animals - but there's no guarantee that comes with entire animals that assures you of a hormone-related disease by the age of 10. It's pot luck.

 

[JAX]

I really do have a major problem with people spaying / neutering too early . Just let the animal reach maturity first . Please . I dont care if it makes it easier or not for vets , its the DOG Im thinking of  .

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It makes no difference for vets. Why does it make a difference to the dog? How do you know? Did one tell you? What is so much worse about it being done at 9 months vs 12 months vs 2 years?

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Did one tell you then , that they prefered having all their female organs taken out !

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

Did one tell you then , that they prefered having all their female organs taken out ! 

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The answer is no. But their owners preferred it.

Please answer my question - it'd be interesting for me to try and understand why you feel age makes a difference to the dog's welfare.

 

[alfyn]

And good for you for having healthy animals - but there's no guarantee that comes with entire animals that assures you of a hormone-related disease by the age of 10. It's pot luck.

There's no guarantee with humans either,but i'm buggered if i'd have bits of my body cut out on the presumption that i MIGHT one day have a hormone related disease (w00t)

Purely out of interest,how long have you been qualified?