Neutering (again)

[Joanna]

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. If anyone has views on having an older bitch speyed I'd be interested

Hello buddy!

We had to have our old dobe, Bonnie, speyed at 8 years old. She developed an aggressive mammary tumour which was huge, distressing, and unpleasant (not to mention very expensive to treat). I wish we had just had the op done years earlier as we had no intention of breeding from her Tie is a very healthy, lovely girlie, I am sure if she is deemed fit, and you feel it is the right thing to do, she would be fine :thumbsup:

I find it quite annoying that people come down so hard on others just because they have a different opinion, Most K9 members are here as a result of their shared love of dogs, they are not evil mutilators of puppies, and should not be judged as such. We all go to the vet to seek an opinion from a trained expert, if the advice is to neuter, and it suits the life-style of dog and owner, so be it.

As an aside, (Jax)I seem to remember the pup that died whilst having the op was very, very young, and it was unusual circumstances (a friend doing the op??) all a bit odd..Please correct me if I'm wrong.

With respect,

Jo

 

[dawn]

h grow up. Some of us have better things to do on a Saturday night than sit glued to the computer in case someone volunteers to have their bottom slapped. Honestly, I go off for a curry and a pint, and you're scrapping like... well, I was going to say bitches but under the circumstances that seems unfair to the canine variety :- "  :wacko:

Are you unable to realise that our comments were"lighthearted" Helen? I am perfectly "grown up" thankyou & no,i didn't have anything better to do last night,for a change!

Considering all the posts you have made,you have a bloody cheek to make a pathetic comment like that!And,i consider your comment as "scrapping",which makes you just as bad

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My thoughts exactly Debs!

This discussion has got somewhat heated so surely a little light hearted banter ought have calmed it down a little.

Please don't be intimidated by the more forceful members

I assume I am linked in with that category??

Yes some us who have been in whippets all our lives do have strong views on the subject but we DO accept that others may not share these views.

Dogs however, always have testicles, so I actually think it is a bigger decision to castrate a dog than spey a bitch.

Why?? The operation for a dog is not half as traumatic as it is for the bitch(not that we would have any dog or bitch speyed or neutered unless for medical reasons)

DAWN

 

[Hilary & Hounds]

With a rescue background, and with most of my dogs coming from rescue, all my animals are neutered as a matter of course. Coming from the other side of the argument, as it were, it was something I didn't question and actively sought. I did then and do now consider myself a responsible owner, capable of making all the sometimes horrible decisions that animal "ownership" can lead us to, as well as the happier ones. I take better care of my dogs' diet and health than I do of my own! :blink:

Rescues are trying, largely in vain, to find a home for each and every dog that comes into their care. Many of these homes are good and loving, but may prove to be slack when it comes to monitoring their dog or bitch where mating is concerned. In an ideal world, maybe these homes would not be considered for a rescue dog, but with the numbers involved daily in rescue neutering is seen as a surefire way to prevent further unwanted pregnancies and so more animals in rescue at a later date.

Responsible breeders of pedigree dogs can be far more choosy about where their pups or adult dogs go. They can afford to assess, through personal experience, which homes would be most suited to their animals and who can deal with a dog or bitch. This is a luxury most rescues cannot afford.

Neither rescue nor breeder gets it right every time, but each are doing the best they can for the animals in their care.

Having heard both sides of the debate on here, and having been brought up with entire bitches, I would not automatically neuter a dog or bitch in future. (Cats, rabbits, etc I still would. They breed far more readily! (w00t) ) As I am now primarily interested in whippets and borzois, I would listen to the breeder's advice before proceeding - barring medical reasons occurring.

 

[dawn]

With a rescue background, and with most of my dogs coming from rescue, all my animals are neutered as a matter of course.

I haven't got a problem with strays etc that have been put into rescue being speyed before they are re-homed, it is done to prevent further offspring ending up in there, however what about the poor old pedigree whos owner has passed away and finds itself in a rescue centre should that be speyed too?? IMO I dont think so.

 

[~Sarah~]

I find it quite annoying that people come down so hard on others just because they have a different opinion, Most K9 members are here as a result of their shared love of dogs, they are not evil mutilators of puppies, and should not be judged as such. We all go to the vet to seek an opinion from a trained expert, if the advice is to neuter, and it suits the life-style of dog and owner, so be it.

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[SIZE=14pt]Well said Jo.[/SIZE]

As I said earlier, I have decided I will probably have Dolly spayed, but I had not dared to mention this until this thread reared its head, for fear of being slagged off by those against spaying. I felt that was a real shame as I do welcome the discussions on this board, providing they do not become personal. :- " :- " I feel this thread has become rather unpleasant. We are all individuals and entitled to our own views which we should be able to express in an open manner in order to provide a good debate.

I am personally against blood sports, but I am well aware that many people on this site support fox hunting, coursing etc. I feel we are entitled to our own views and opinions and I would not dream of making personal attacks to those who have different opinions to myself.

Going back to the spay issue, to take it to the extreme, surely everything we do with our dogs is not necessarily what the dog would choose. Do they really enjoy showing? Do bitches want a litter of pups just when we decide? Their whole lives are dictated by what we choose - where they sleep, what they eat, etc. So if neutering is what we feel is right for our dog and family members, then surely that decision should be respected, just as the decision not to neuter should be respected.

Sorry to waffle on!! :- " :lol:

 

[Rae]

Dogs however, always have testicles, so I actually think it is a bigger decision to castrate a dog than spey a bitch.

Why?? The operation for a dog is not half as traumatic as it is for the bitch(not that we would have any dog or bitch speyed or neutered unless for medical reasons)

DAWN

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I thought I'd explained that?

Dogs have testicles all year round. Bitches are not always in season. Speying a bitch maintains them in their 'normal' state. Removing a dogs testicles alters him to a state that he would not normally be in.

I wouldn't dream of having a go at some one because their dogs were not neutered. It seems to be the biggest divide on this board?

My vet recommended that Star was speyed before her first season and a similar thread on K9 suggested it would be better to let her have atleast one season first, to mature. Made perfect sense and was something the Vet had not mentioned. Although this topic always gets very heated it is good to hear both sides of a calm, sensible, and well reasoned argument. I just wish it didnt get so derogatory

 

[alfyn]

Sarah,as far as i can see,no one has been,nor will you be slagged off for having their bitch speyed.

The main issue is the AGE at which some vets will do this major operation. Yes,it has been commented that if someone can't cope with a bitch in season,get a dog instead,& i'm one of those who agree with that,but that's just my opinion.

What a lot of people don't realise,is that speying at the wrong time during a bitches cycle,can upset their physical/mental state.

A bitch will have her season,then her body will follow through a pattern of adjustment preparing them for pregnancy(or not),at this time,they often have mood swings for the 9 weeks following a season as their hormones are changing.If they are speyed during this time,they are often mentally stuck in that mode for the rest of their life.So it is important to have them done about 12 weeks after a season.

If a bitch is speyed while still a puppy,& before their first season,who knows what their hormones are up to?IMO,they will never fully develop mentally & physically.

Something else that hasn't yet been brought up is the problem of incontinence after neuturing/speying.Though this might be relatively rare,it does happen,& I can speak from experience on this one .Then the poor dog has to have drugs to help counteract the problem which in turn can cause behaviour problems.

 

[dawn]

Dogs  have testicles all year round.  Bitches are not always in season.  Speying a bitch maintains them in  their 'normal' state.  Removing a dogs testicles alters him to a state that he would not normally be in.

Sorry Rae but I just don't understand (Im not being either deliberately thick (although I am blonde ) or just stirring things up - I honestly cannot see the difference )

I cannot see how removing a bitches uterus, which she has all year in her 'normal' state, is different to removing a dogs testes. Both are unnatural acts which cause a change in the animals' hormone production. Why is the one OK but the other is not?

 

[~JO~]

Something else that hasn't yet been brought up is the problem of incontinence after neuturing/speying.Though this might be relatively rare,it does happen,& I can speak from experience on this one .Then the poor dog has to have drugs to help counteract the problem which in turn can cause behaviour problems.

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I don't think this is particularly rare at all. It would be very interesting if there has ever been any data collected on this. When I work at crufts on the stand, incontinence is one of the most common problems we encounter (after skin conditions & colitis) and the first question I always ask, is it a bitch (normally yes), if so has she been speyed? I would say that 95% of the time the answer is yes. Propalin syrup which is the most common drug used for this problem seems to be very common and they advertise a lot which I think indicates incontinence as a pretty common problem. Of course how much is linked to speying... who knows!!

For the sake of a balanced debate, the other problems that seem to occur - in obviously not all but in some bitches are weight gain and coat changes. In whippets I don't think the coat change is very prominent but in some of the coated breeds (setters for example) their coats go incredibly 'wooly' and dry.

I know a few people that have had to have their bitch speyed for medical reasons and that has put an end to their show career due to the complete change in coat. I know that obviously it is better the bitch is healthy (not even suggesting this would be a reason not to operate) but I am just trying to indicate how extreme this effect can be on the coat.

 

[Rae]

Dogs  have testicles all year round.  Bitches are not always in season.  Speying a bitch maintains them in  their 'normal' state.  Removing a dogs testicles alters him to a state that he would not normally be in.

Sorry Rae but I just don't understand (Im not being either deliberately thick (although I am blonde ) or just stirring things up - I honestly cannot see the difference )

I cannot see how removing a bitches uterus, which she has all year in her 'normal' state, is different to removing a dogs testes. Both are unnatural acts which cause a change in the animals' hormone production. Why is the one OK but the other is not?

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Hi Dawn, yes I see your point. But the uterus isnt in it's 'normal' state when the bitch is in season. Removing it obviously prevents seasons. As far as I'm aware dogs testicles dont cause cyclical changes that affect their moods and thier bodies

. I'm not saying that one is OK and the other is not - I'm saying that IMHO and for my own dogs, I would think more carefully about castrating a dog than speying a bitch (even though the later is more invasive).

 

[JAX]

. If anyone has views on having an older bitch speyed I'd be interested

Hello buddy!

As an aside, (Jax)I seem to remember the pup that died whilst having the op was very, very young, and it was unusual circumstances (a friend doing the op??) all a bit odd..Please correct me if I'm wrong.

With respect,

Jo

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What a good memory you have . yes the Vet was a friend of the person invovled , but a full qualified vet who jst happened to be a personnal friend too , which I would have thought would have made it harder .

As regards having older bitches spayed , all those Ive known have come through their ops , no problems at all ,and none have suffered any incontinence problems either,

Its just having YOUNG , IMMATURE whippets done that really upsets me .

And as regards dogs ( males ) being castrated , Its so much quicker and less painful than bitches , In fact Woody didnt have any stitches at all ( he was done because he wound himself absolutly senseless when the girls came into season :b and we thought it was best for him

His grandson Montee is still entire and copes well with having lots of `girlies `about o

 

[chelynnah]

Well finally dipping my toes into this discussion...

Some comments have been made (either on this thread or the other one I can't remember) that a particular person wouldn't put themselves through that surgery for convenience, so why would you do it to a dog.

Well can I say that thousands upon thousands of people do just that for their own convenience every year. Tubal ligations and vasectomies - for the pure convenience of not procreating. It's done every day all the time. And once into the menopause years women do often opt for hysterectomies. No we're not talking paediatric - we are talking older, however in his years as a Dr. (which includes over a year in Obsetrics and Gynacology in training) Nick would say 99+% of vasectomies and tubal ligations are done PURELY FOR THE CONVENIENCE OF THE PERSON (in reality he's only ever seen one done for a medical/genetic reason). In hysterctomies the majority are done for medical reasons (discomfort due to severe periods - if before meopause) and NOT for life-threatening reasons (pyometra, cancers, tumors etc).

In the case that started this discussion the person stated it was a toy breed, and that toys are into adulthood by 9 months. If they are not breeding from the dog and believe spaying is the best option for them then spaying at that time I don't see as a problem. If they were talking about spaying a giant breed dog (who is not mature until 2 years sometimes) then that might be the time to discuss 'too early'.

If someone is trying to do what they believe is 'responsible' and spay/neuter a dog/bitch they are not going to be breeding from, then why not do it as early as is safe? I'm not for a second advocating paediatric spays (though Chelsea was already spayed at 12 weeks when we got her from rescue and has had no ill effects from it). I'm just saying that as soon as they're physically mature, why not? If it also has the added benefit of ensuring no mammory tumors or pyometra later on and they're already planning on doing it - then why not do it as early as is safe and maximise the benefits of something THEY ALREADY HAVE PLANNED?

I'm from Canada. When I came here I was totally pro spay/neuter if you're not breeding. I also think that there are TONS of irresponsible people out there - and if vets can encourage them to spay/neuter then we should be behind that. No one is saying the people on this board are irresponsible for not spaying/neutering - and neither should we be saying that of people that are. People are doing what they feel is best in their situation (same as with the raw meaty bone debate).

I'm probably much less on the pro side than I was. My views have modified a lot due to discussions with people, the fact that I'm showing etc. But for everyone of 'us' out there there are dozens of 'them'. 'Them' being people with no real dog sense, who just want a dog because it's what you do - you have a family dog. Who want to breed fluffy because she's cute - and what the heck we haven't spayed her yet. THESE are the majority of dogs who end up in rescue, and we do have an overpopulation problem (not as serious as the US, but we have one).

Anyway just some thoughts to throw into the mix.

Wendy

 

[Jones]

When we took Teasel to the vets on Thursday for her first jab we mentioned microchipping :thumbsup:

They said best to have it done when you have her speyed at 14 weeks (w00t) then asked if we wanted to make an appointment now

We're not going to have her speyed but if we were it certainly wouldn't be at 14 weeks (w00t)

I don't disagree with neutering in general :unsure: but I really don't like the way its become a cure all procedure for every problem under the sun :wacko:

Every time we take one of the boys to the vets they try and get us to have them neutered Then give us the lecture that we're asking for trouble having two entire boys in the house :unsure: so god knows what they think now we have Teasel :- "

Cheers

Steve

 

[Veredon]

I just think that its 'Scary' that Speying in seemed to be the 'Norm'.

I think its Rubbish.

Putting a young Animal under full anesthetic and having it 'gutted' IMO is Unfair and certainly not Natural.

Although Practiced very regularly by Vets it's Still a MAJOR operation....which people tend to forget.

I have only ever had one bitch speyed (due to health reasons) and wouldn't dream of putting a healthy young animal through it again.

When this Bitch came back from the Vets she Was quite clearly in agony,for about two days.Crying whimmpering and generally extremely uncomfortable.

Young Bitches ARE under increased Hormonal influence before their Their First season- all part of maturing and preparing to reproduce, to upset these hormonal balances/changes before full maturity IMO is wrong.

 

[alfyn]

Every time we take one of the boys to the vets they try and get us to have them neutered Then give us the lecture that we're asking for trouble having two entire boys in the house  :unsure: so god knows what they think now we have Teasel  :- " 
Cheers

            Steve

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Steve,I have 2 entire males & they get on fine,even when Poppy was in season. Flyn mated a bitch a couple of weeks ago & there was no problem with the boys afterwards.

The trouble is,certain vets just see it as any easy money maker :rant:

 

[JAX]

Its not jsut easy money Debs . I think they have been `programmed `to get them `done ` .

When I was quite new to my present Vets , he said `we dont get many BREEDERS to this practise ` As if I was a second class citizen :angry: , My reply was ` If it wasnt for ` BREEDERS ` you wouldnt have any clients . :angry:

Better terms were had once he realised just how often I bred , he`s since retired and the Vets who have taken over are `old allies` from my previous practice, :- " and know me REALLY well :huggles:

 

[JAX]

Every time we take one of the boys to the vets they try and get us to have them neutered Then give us the lecture that we're asking for trouble having two entire boys in the house  :unsure: so god knows what they think now we have Teasel  :- " 
Cheers

            Steve

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With SOME breeds you would be risking it (w00t) .eg Terriers , Dobes . Rottys and probably MOST breeds , You see thats the trouble with VETS. they GENERALISE , , But to be fair to them they cant be expected to know all the ins and outs of every breed. what they should do is ask advice from someone who knows the breed first , but they are far too busy for that Im sure .

They dont realise you can get at least 8 whippets on one couch do they o

 

[chelynnah]

They dont realise you can get at least 8 whippets on one couch do they  o

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Only Eight?? Well there go my plans then.....

Wendy

 

[Strike Whippets]

Surely as we are all adult's, it's up to us to make up our own minds as to what is best for our dogs .......I can't believe a topic like this can get so :wacko:

 

[alfyn]

Every time we take one of the boys to the vets they try and get us to have them neutered Then give us the lecture that we're asking for trouble having two entire boys in the house  :unsure: so god knows what they think now we have Teasel  :- " 

Cheers

             Steve

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With SOME breeds you would be risking it (w00t) .eg Terriers , Dobes . Rottys and probably MOST breeds , You see thats the trouble with VETS. they GENERALISE , , But to be fair to them they cant be expected to know all the ins and outs of every breed. what they should do is ask advice from someone who knows the breed first , but they are far too busy for that Im sure .

They dont realise you can get at least 8 whippets on one couch do they o

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You're possibly right Jax,though I always had 2 GSD males,& never had any probs with them either & know of several people who also did.

I think a lot of it(though certainly not all) is down to how you are as an individual with your dogs.

But i certainly don't think it's a vets place to comment on this,especially as a lot of them probably don't even own a dog so won't know much about animal behaviour