Neutering (again)

[Seraphina]

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I do not know what is the situation over in the UK but in here to get to Vet school you need higher marks than to get into medicine, unfortunately having a practical experience with animals is not necessary.  I have met many city vets who did not keep animals.  I once asked  lovely but infuriatingly impractical vet why did he go into veterinary science.  He said that it was the most prestigious field to get into, i asked if he ever had a pet to which he replied: "No, but I always thought animals were sort of nice".  (w00t)     :unsure: We have to realise that the theory taught in schools is the up to date knowledge (more or less), but this is not static, it is evolving.    It is not so long ago that "bleeding" was considered the cure for just about everything.  It was stopped sometime ago together with other practices such as leaches and maggots.  However in recent years the maggots are coming back in the "fashion" and are ery successfully used for treating  an open wound infection not responding to antibiotics.

I think it is important for old vets to be openminded and to accept new research and young vets to also accept that some things  they were taught in the vet school may also be proven not %100 right.    And there are things which just cannot be taught, they come with hands on experience.

Lida

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Very true words Lida ... although here in the UK it is expected that prospective students have worked with a wide range of animals and have references to show for it before applying - these references are considered during the application process and IMO are vital for gaining entry. Most of the applicants will have the necessary academic qualifications anyway, and this practical experience (plus being able to talk a good line at interview!) is what interviewers use to differentiate between the applicants. But yes, this line of work is vocational and some people are not cut out for it despite 'ticking all the boxes'.

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I should have said; "to get to vet school, having a practical experience with animals WAS not necessary" . I do hope that things are changing here as well. I know it is so in medicine, in the past good marks were all what was needed but for some years now, at least some universities look for students who have good people skills and who genuianly care about helping people rather than hoping to make lots of money.

Lida

 

[alfyn]

ILKC, going by some of your latest comments,i'd say you're PMT ish :sweating:

Perhaps if you had a hysterectomy,you'd feel better? It might not be good for your hair & skin,but at least you won't get pyometra or mammary tumours! (w00t) :lol: :huggles:

 

[littleminx]

Its not jsut easy money Debs . I think they have been `programmed `to get them `done ` .
When I was quite new to my present Vets , he said `we dont get many BREEDERS to this practise ` As if I was a second class citizen  :angry: , My reply was ` If it wasnt for ` BREEDERS ` you wouldnt have any clients .  :angry:

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Well said Jax, my vet has stopped asking me now when i take a new puppy i have bred for jab's if i want him/her done but we are moving next year so i am sure it will all start again with a new one :- " :lol:

 

[~Sarah~]

ILKC, going by some of your latest comments,i'd say you're PMT ish :sweating: Perhaps if you had a hysterectomy,you'd feel better? It might not be good for your hair & skin,but at least you won't get pyometra or mammary tumours! (w00t)     :lol:   :huggles:

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Too personal I feel.

 

[alfyn]

For goodness sake Sarah,it's a joke to try to lighten things up a bit!

 

[~Sarah~]

Given the previous comments, I did not feel it came across as a joke. Sorry that I didn't perceive it as such. :- "

 

[alfyn]

I assume you can see the emoticons on my post?

The post is directed at ILKC,not you,& I hope she can see the funny side of it :sweating:

 

[dawn]

I assume you can see the emoticons on my post?
The post is directed at ILKC,not you,& I hope she can see the funny side of it :sweating:

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I had no other conception than it being meant in a humourous manner.

:cheers:

 

[~Helen~]

It would be really good to keep this thread on topic.

Just a reminder - I've linked this thread into FAQ, and for many new members that forum will be one of the first places they visit because it offers them the answers to many of their questions.

FAQ showcases K9 Community in so many ways, but first and foremost its intention is the sharing of information :thumbsup: There is a lot to sift through in this thread, lots of opposing opinions and eloquent debate. Let's keep it that way :cheers:

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

B) Letting them prepare to reproduce is Natural.

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Bang goes the argument for neutering rescued dogs then ... let them all happily play in the streets, have babies and starve ... it's natural!

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ILKC - for goodness sake!!! How is that sort of comment helping - you know fully well no-one on this board would condone this.

Ozzy is just pointing out that you should let the body completely mature before you start messing around with its hormones!!! He said letting them PREPARE to reproduce not actually reproducing.

This debate was going quite nicely but that sort of flippant comment is quite unnecessary.

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Exactly - everyone draws the line somewhere different - some people don't let them prepare at all, some let them prepare then spay, some let them prepare and then have a litter, and some let them prepare then don't let them follow through at all. It's not all that flippant really - we do all sorts of unnatural things to dogs and spaying is just one of them. Controlling breeding is another.

 

[~JO~]

... let them all happily play in the streets, have babies and starve ... it's natural!

Not flippant!!!! (w00t) (w00t) :- "

yes, everyone does draw the 'line' in a different place, but this was not the point of Ozzys' comment!!

I will repeat, he was talking about 'PREPARING TO REPRODUCE' not 'REPRODUCING' and just that the bitch should be allowed to mature naturally before it is operated upon.

I think there is common feeling amongst many on here that operating on a young bitch/dog before they mature is not a good idea. We are not saying do not operate on any and let them all reproduce all they want etc etc...

I don't think this thread has much further to run unless anyone has any new stance on the subject, or information to throw into the debate which would prove interesting to old and new members alike?

 

[Lolcoe]

Oh my goodness, just read through all this and my mind is all kerfuffled!!! :blink:

Firstly, only 1 of my dogs have been castrated, and that was because he was an excellent escape artist. The vet said that it would stop his willingness to wander (it didnt) and we wanted it to stop any unplanned litters from neighbouring dogs. He was a rescue dog and was in rescue because of his gypsy tendancies. Call us irresposible owners but he was excellent at it, even having new very secure fencing at just under a grand and CCTV didnt keep him in!!! Now 2 years after his op he doesnt do it any more, because he has aged a lot and is now a fattie, IMO from the Op!

Genie is having his first jabs and the first thing the vet asks is 'neuturing'! When i said no im not having it done, they look at you like your a bit dumb :angry:

At this moment in time, none of my dogs are going to be altered just for the sheer hell of it.

But then theres a little nagging voice in the back of my head regarding our bitches.

I myself have been refused a double mastectomy and hysterectamy by my consultant, even though i've just gone through a tough time medically. It was not an easy decision to come to but i just wanted rid of a timebomb in my body.

They reckon that it would be far too drastic an op for a woman my age (30).

My arguament with them was that if i were a dog then it would be done routinely, no questions asked!!!!

One question about this is that in humans, problem are usually hereditary.

Does the same apply in dogs? If that were the case then i could see the sense in getting a bitch spayed to prevent it.

 

[JAX]

Well put Dennis :cheers:

I think this topic has reached its peak , The fact is we will never ALL agree , but the bottom line is . Its seems MOST of us think that if dogs HAVE to be spayed/ castrated , at least wait until they are mature , eg 12 months .

Lets not keep going over old ground :- " unless some one new comes on the site with a whole new angle :thumbsup:

 

[~JO~]

Well put Dennis  :cheers:  

I think this topic has reached its peak , The fact is we will never ALL agree , but the bottom line is . Its seems MOST of us think that if dogs HAVE to be spayed/ castrated , at least wait until they are mature , eg 12 months .

Lets not keep going over old ground  :- "  unless some one new comes on the site with a whole new angle  :thumbsup:

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You copying me Jax!!! :lol: :lol: :thumbsup:

 

[JAX]

Well put Dennis   :cheers:   

I think this topic has reached its peak , The fact is we will never ALL agree , but the bottom line is . Its seems MOST of us think that if dogs HAVE to be spayed/ castrated , at least wait until they are mature , eg 12 months .

Lets not keep going over old ground  :- "  unless some one new comes on the site with a whole new angle  :thumbsup:

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You copying me Jax!!! :lol: :lol: :thumbsup:

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sorry didnt read what youd put But great minds and all that :thumbsup:

 

[dawn]

  sorry didnt read what youd put    But great minds and all that  :thumbsup:

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Great minds can include Jo but the second part of the saying is for you :huggles:

 

[dawn]

Just Read the following on Champdogs..

I live in Norway .... Spay/neutering is illegal here and thus a spay/neuter contract isn't used

Does this mean Norway has a dog problem as ALL the dogs are entire?

Or do they have a different way of controlling the breeding of dogs?

Does the No spey/neuter also include cats?

 

[bertie]

I would like to ask a question to the Vets and pro's on this thread.
Surley before the vets can give advise on best practise this should be backed up with clinical research and study. lets see the papers or is it a case of monkey see monkey do.

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Vets are taught at vet schools, which are actually clinical research institutions. The people who teach vets spend the rest of their time writing the aforementioned papers. There's not a lot more I can do for you Bertie, short of setting up my own private beagle colony and testing out your theories myself!

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So if this research has been undertaken as you suggest then these papers could be available upon request, this would and is the case in humans.

If a customer/client asked you at your practice would you also tell them just to trust you and you have not got the time to 'set up your own beagle colony and test out your concerns over said product or procedure'?

Before I totally reject the crazy idea it would have been nice to see the clinical reasons why you hold your views.

 

[tabz2711]

Hi Everyone dare I mention why I had my girls neutered, because the breeder made me sign a declaration that we would have her neutered and we were not allowed to breed from her. If would not have been able to have her if we did not sign it and as an honest person when I sign something I have to act on it.

I also felt that I could not 100% trust that she would never excape with the seven children I had at the time, 4 of my own(before someone starts on me being neutered) and 3 foster children. However protected the garden is dogs and kiddies sometimes manage to escape. I would have hated her to have had pups and not know who the father was. BUt the jist of it all was I really didn't have a choice as we said that we would neuter her. How many whippet breeders ask the new owners to neuter is this a regulary request or just I choose the wrong breeder.

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

One question about this is that in humans, problem are usually hereditary. Does the same apply in dogs? If that were the case then i could see the sense in getting a bitch spayed to prevent it.

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Anecdotally, yes, but I don't know of any research on the subject. But if you mean has anyone ever told me that the bitch I had diagnosed with mammary cancer had relatives with a similar condition, the answer would be yes, a few times.