Neutering (again)

[dawn]

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Surely as we are all adult's, it's up to us to make up our own minds as to what is best for our dogs .......I can't believe a topic like this can get so  :wacko:

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The problem with making one's own mind up is that there is very little unbiased advice about.

It is difficult to get a balanced discussion about neutering as so many have fixed opinions (OK I may be one of them too) and the veterinary profession do seem, in general, to be in favour of neutering the dogs that come their way. Whether this is simply prescribing for the cheque book as some claim, which in all honesty I doubt, or a result of what is taught at Vet School it still is a biased response.

IMO to justify neutering as a prophylactic for pyometra or mamary tumours is misleading and begets the question as to how many unspeyed bitches do develop mamary tumours and how many males develop testicular cancer, to justify it as to keep the mess down and males away from the door is downright horrendous - neutering is simply a way of stopping an animal breeding.

BTW my mother has FOUR entire males at home with no more problems than we do with our bitches.

 

[bertie]

I would like to ask a question to the Vets and pro's on this thread.

Surley before the vets can give advise on best practise this should be backed up with clinical research and study. lets see the papers or is it a case of monkey see monkey do.

 

[Mark Roberts]

The nuturing thing seems to be to done for 2 reasons

1/ to save unwanted litters, like I said before it's not the responsible owners who have unwanted litters anyway and there the ones having their dogs speyed.

2/ to prevent cancers later in life, i've had loads of old dogs (so to speak) and non have ever been lost due to a cancer ect that could of been avoided by being speyed. if I had I may have a differant opionion on the matter.

I can understand owners wanting their dogs done but I can also understand those against it, we all have the responsibilty to do what we think is right for our dogs.

 

[dawn]

1/ to save unwanted litters, like I said before it's not the responsible owners who have unwanted litters anyway and there the ones having their dogs speyed.
2/ to prevent cancers later in life, i've had loads of old dogs (so to speak) and non have ever been lost due to a cancer ect that could of been avoided by being speyed.

Therefore the conclusion has to be that responsible owners who do have them speyed or neutered have it done for their own convienience or have been talked into it by the vet.

 

[janfiers]

(w00t) Wow this thread has certainly got lots of people hot under the collar on both sides of the debate.

So here's my twopenny worth, (for what it's worth). Yes I have had a bitch spayed, on medical grounds, and whilst medically it was the correct thing to do, it has changed her, she is no longer as happy and carefree as she used to be.

As for speying young dogs, that in my view, is an absolute no no. Whippets can take up to 18 months before they are fully mature and until their hormones have settled down and sorted themselves out, it is quite feasible that their personality changes as a result. I also have four male dogs, who all live quite happily together, including when my bitches are in season. If you train your dog (start as you mean to go on) much of the negative behaviour can be avoided hence the poor dog does not need to have it's testicles lopped off!

If people buy a bitch puppy only to have it speyed because of the 'mess', then they should have bought a dog puppy in the first place or perhaps not bought a puppy at all.

As to the K9'er who said toy dogs are generally mature at 9 mths, that's not quite right, having toys myself for over 30 years, some can take much longer to mature, so each dog should be considered as an individual.

Let's not lose the plot and get personal on what is a very emotive subject.

Having had the hysterectomy thing myself, I can only sympathise with the bitches when they've had it done, because no matter how good the surgeon, human or veterinary, the change to your body is enormous, and therefore should not be undertaken lightly and certainly not as a means of housekeeping. Same goes for castrating dogs, except I haven't had that done! :wacko:

 

[dawn]

Having had the hysterectomy thing myself, I can only sympathise with the bitches  ......................Same goes for castrating dogs, except I haven't had that done! :wacko:

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You could follow up on the trial and see what effect it has on Pedro - Suggest it as a Birthday surprise

 

[doris]

I always believed that vets used the argument of preventing cancer or illness in later life, to encourage pet owners to get their animals neutered - its well known that uneducated or insecure men have a real adversion when it comes to supporting the decision to get your dogs knackers cut off, for whatever reason! :unsure: (sorry, not being flippant, just realistic)

I also thought they did it to try and prevent them picking up the crappy end of the stick, having to put down all those hundreds of unwanted dogs

its the irresponsible dog owners who probably never even thought of finding out more on a website like this one that causes the problems, so it feels a bit like preaching to the converted when talking about responsible breeders and owners, if you know what I mean? :wacko:

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

With a rescue background, and with most of my dogs coming from rescue, all my animals are neutered as a matter of course.

I haven't got a problem with strays etc that have been put into rescue being speyed before they are re-homed, it is done to prevent further offspring ending up in there, however what about the poor old pedigree whos owner has passed away and finds itself in a rescue centre should that be speyed too?? IMO I dont think so.

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The 'stray' and the 'pedigree' would (rightly) be treated exactly the same, and the rescue would have no more control or knowledge of the prospective home of one vs the other. As a result to neuter one and not the other would make a farce out of all the effort and work put into rescuing dogs. Each dog is as likely to go on and procreate - it's not like pedigee dogs are shown how to put condoms on in ringcraft classes!

 

[JAX]

I certainly know what you mean Doris , Irresponsible owners probably wouldnt even consider looking at a web-site about dogs .

it's not like pedigee dogs are shown how to put condoms on in ringcraft classes!

Now that I would like to see :- "

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

When this Bitch came back from the Vets she Was quite clearly in agony,for about two days.Crying whimmpering and generally extremely uncomfortable.

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I assume you called the vets and got extra pain relief? As with humans, no two dogs are the same, and if any owner calls me concerned about that level of pain they would get re-examined and prescribed extra painkillers. As it happens, it is extremely rare that this is the case.

Young Bitches ARE under increased Hormonal influence before their Their First season- all part of maturing and preparing to reproduce, to upset these hormonal balances/changes before full maturity IMO is wrong.

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And letting them prepare to reproduce but then not allowing them to actually do it is right?

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

With SOME breeds you would be risking it  (w00t) .eg Terriers , Dobes . Rottys and probably MOST breeds ,        You see thats the trouble with VETS. they GENERALISE , , But to be fair to them they cant be expected to know all the ins and outs of every breed. what they should do is ask advice from someone who knows the breed first , but they are far too busy for that Im sure .
They dont realise you can get at least 8 whippets on one couch do they  o

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"Vets ... generalise" but you saying that it would be "risking it" to have two male Jack Russels living together isn't a generalisation?

Where did you acquire this license to be supercilious?

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

But i certainly don't think it's a vets place to comment on this,especially as a lot of them probably don't even own a dog so won't know much about animal behaviour

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Yeah, because you obviously know that animal behaviour was never touched on during the degree, not once ... despite the fact that we were actually taught by a well known behaviourist (Sam Scott (now Lindley?)) about behaviour problems and psychopharmacology? IMO we weren't taught nearly enough, but I certainly don't think that (A) not owning a dog means you know nothing about behaviour and (B) owning a dog means you know the slightest thing about animal behaviour! What a silly comment!

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

I would like to ask a question to the Vets and pro's on this thread.
Surley before the vets can give advise on best practise this should be backed up with clinical research and study. lets see the papers or is it a case of monkey see monkey do.

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Vets are taught at vet schools, which are actually clinical research institutions. The people who teach vets spend the rest of their time writing the aforementioned papers. There's not a lot more I can do for you Bertie, short of setting up my own private beagle colony and testing out your theories myself!

 

[JAX]

With SOME breeds you would be risking it  (w00t) .eg Terriers , Dobes . Rottys and probably MOST breeds ,        You see thats the trouble with VETS. they GENERALISE , , But to be fair to them they cant be expected to know all the ins and outs of every breed. what they should do is ask advice from someone who knows the breed first , but they are far too busy for that Im sure .
They dont realise you can get at least 8 whippets on one couch do they  o

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"Vets ... generalise" but you saying that it would be "risking it" to have two male Jack Russels living together isn't a generalisation?

Where did you acquire this license to be supercilious?

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Where did you acquire this license to be supercilious?

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Who mentioned Jack Russells ? :blink: and I dont need a licence to be SUPERCILLIOS , it comes naturally Chill out girl , for goodness sake. or youll never make `old bones `

 

[Seraphina]

But i certainly don't think it's a vets place to comment on this,especially as a lot of them probably don't even own a dog so won't know much about animal behaviour

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Yeah, because you obviously know that animal behaviour was never touched on during the degree, not once ... despite the fact that we were actually taught by a well known behaviourist (Sam Scott (now Lindley?)) about behaviour problems and psychopharmacology? IMO we weren't taught nearly enough, but I certainly don't think that (A) not owning a dog means you know nothing about behaviour and (B) owning a dog means you know the slightest thing about animal behaviour! What a silly comment!

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I do not know what is the situation over in the UK but in here to get to Vet school you need higher marks than to get into medicine, unfortunately having a practical experience with animals is not necessary. I have met many city vets who did not keep animals. I once asked lovely but infuriatingly impractical vet why did he go into veterinary science. He said that it was the most prestigious field to get into, i asked if he ever had a pet to which he replied: "No, but I always thought animals were sort of nice". (w00t) :unsure:

We have to realise that the theory taught in schools is the up to date knowledge (more or less), but this is not static, it is evolving. It is not so long ago that "bleeding" was considered the cure for just about everything. It was stopped sometime ago together with other practices such as leaches and maggots. However in recent years the maggots are coming back in the "fashion" and are ery successfully used for treating an open wound infection not responding to antibiotics.

I think it is important for old vets to be openminded and to accept new research and young vets to also accept that some things they were taught in the vet school may also be proven not %100 right. And there are things which just cannot be taught, they come with hands on experience.

Lida

 

[Veredon]

When this Bitch came back from the Vets she Was quite clearly in agony,for about two days.Crying whimmpering and generally extremely uncomfortable.

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I assume you called the vets and got extra pain relief? As with humans, no two dogs are the same, and if any owner calls me concerned about that level of pain they would get re-examined and prescribed extra painkillers. As it happens, it is extremely rare that this is the case.

Young Bitches ARE under increased Hormonal influence before their Their First season- all part of maturing and preparing to reproduce, to upset these hormonal balances/changes before full maturity IMO is wrong.

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And letting them prepare to reproduce but then not allowing them to actually do it is right?

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A) I was told to give extra painkillers yes...which ofcourse I did.From the people I've spoken too, I certainly wouldn't say that bitches that come back from the Vets in Pain and discomfort is a rare Occurence.

B) Letting them prepare to reproduce is Natural.

 

[Seraphina]

And letting them prepare to reproduce but then not allowing them to actually do it is right?

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Well, woman does that once a months. Maybe we should all get desexed, to save ourselves the trouble???

That is not by itself a good enough reason. However, my daughter's little Chihuahua (she is now 7y.o.) was spayed, because she came in season every 5-6months, seemed to have period pains, bled so much she could not come to work and then she would have very distressing false pregnancy. However now, couple of years on, she has all her mammaries swollen as if she is about to lactate - she is seeing a vet today.

Lida

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

I do not know what is the situation over in the UK but in here to get to Vet school you need higher marks than to get into medicine, unfortunately having a practical experience with animals is not necessary.  I have met many city vets who did not keep animals.  I once asked  lovely but infuriatingly impractical vet why did he go into veterinary science.  He said that it was the most prestigious field to get into, i asked if he ever had a pet to which he replied: "No, but I always thought animals were sort of nice".  (w00t)     :unsure: We have to realise that the theory taught in schools is the up to date knowledge (more or less), but this is not static, it is evolving.    It is not so long ago that "bleeding" was considered the cure for just about everything.  It was stopped sometime ago together with other practices such as leaches and maggots.  However in recent years the maggots are coming back in the "fashion" and are ery successfully used for treating  an open wound infection not responding to antibiotics.

I think it is important for old vets to be openminded and to accept new research and young vets to also accept that some things  they were taught in the vet school may also be proven not %100 right.    And there are things which just cannot be taught, they come with hands on experience.

Lida

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Very true words Lida ... although here in the UK it is expected that prospective students have worked with a wide range of animals and have references to show for it before applying - these references are considered during the application process and IMO are vital for gaining entry. Most of the applicants will have the necessary academic qualifications anyway, and this practical experience (plus being able to talk a good line at interview!) is what interviewers use to differentiate between the applicants. But yes, this line of work is vocational and some people are not cut out for it despite 'ticking all the boxes'.

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

A) I was told to give extra painkillers yes...which ofcourse I did.From the people I've spoken too, I certainly wouldn't say that bitches that come back from the Vets in Pain and discomfort is a rare Occurence.

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I'm very surprised at this because it is not my experience in practice. A proportion of dogs will feel greater pain than others, but as the muscles are separated at the line alba (a fibrous line midabdomen) and not across the muscles as with humans, pain is generally short-lived and easily controlled.

B) Letting them prepare to reproduce is Natural.

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Bang goes the argument for neutering rescued dogs then ... let them all happily play in the streets, have babies and starve ... it's natural!

 

[~JO~]

B) Letting them prepare to reproduce is Natural.

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Bang goes the argument for neutering rescued dogs then ... let them all happily play in the streets, have babies and starve ... it's natural!

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ILKC - for goodness sake!!! How is that sort of comment helping - you know fully well no-one on this board would condone this.

Ozzy is just pointing out that you should let the body completely mature before you start messing around with its hormones!!! He said letting them PREPARE to reproduce not actually reproducing.

This debate was going quite nicely but that sort of flippant comment is quite unnecessary.