Hi, i am new here, read lots of useful information already! Up until last December, we had 3 dogs, 1 male, 2 females. The male was a GSD and had to be put to sleep just before Christmas when his health failed him. We have just taken in a new GSD, about 2 years old. My females are 5 and 8. He has settled in here very nicely and for the most part, all the dogs ignore each other. We are introducing them slowly, have taken them out for long walks together. It doesn't matter whether we are at home or out on a walk, the new male will sniff at one of the girls, circle around her and then grab her by the neck. There is a bit of snapping and growling but no blood has been drawn - yet! obviously, we cannot leave them alone unsupervised for the foreseeable future and wouldn't put any of them in a situation where they are uncomfortable. My question is this - is the new male attempting to assert dominance? If we didn't pull him back when he grabs the female, would he do any serious harm to her - that may sound like a silly question but I don't want to interfere in any pecking order issues. All three dogs are obediant, even the new one and he already looks to us for commands. We have never had this problem before because we always introduced puppies, never older dogs.
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New dog in the pack
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If you think your older girl can cope and give the new boy a good telling off for his inappropriate behaviour, I would leave them to it. Supervise but do not intervene. Give her your silent approval and let him learn some manners.
We, as humans, tend to jump in and sort things out so that no one gets hurt and everyone is happy. Dogs are quite capable of doing this for themselves. Older bitches, in particular are good at keeping young males in line.
If, however, she has learned to not retaliate when annoyed then you may have to do it for her. Use a word such as "enough" and isolate the new dog until he learns that his behaviour will not be tolerated.
I always put new rescue dogs on a sort of bread and water type of regime. They have to prove themselves worthy of a place in the home and earn the respect of the other inhabitants in the house.
We, as humans, tend to jump in and sort things out so that no one gets hurt and everyone is happy. Dogs are quite capable of doing this for themselves. Older bitches, in particular are good at keeping young males in line.
If, however, she has learned to not retaliate when annoyed then you may have to do it for her. Use a word such as "enough" and isolate the new dog until he learns that his behaviour will not be tolerated.
I always put new rescue dogs on a sort of bread and water type of regime. They have to prove themselves worthy of a place in the home and earn the respect of the other inhabitants in the house.
Thanks. we let him and the 5-year-old girl out in the garden for a while today. he ignored her for a minute and then grabbed her, she retaliated and he backed off but then went straight in and did it again. she wasn't happy because she shot off to a place where she felt safe so I think we are going to have to go at this very slow. She has never been taught nor learned not to retaliate; if she isn't happy she lets you know but she is not aggressive usually. The older dog is a different matter, she growls at hm when he gets near and will fight back but my concern is that she is incredibly protective of the other dog and I don't want a free-for-all!
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Bitch on (male) dog is not usually a huge problem. Two bitches who fall out is a different matter.
It sounds as if the older bitch has his measure and your younger bitch either has to learn to stand up for herself or accept that he is the stronger character and put up with it. She may not care enough to want to fight back. We find this attitude "unfair" because she was there first. In dogs, however, being the underdog is not seen as failure. It is by far the easier life in fact. You just sit back and let the others get on with all the worry.
It is still early days. You could juggle them around a little so that your middle bitch gets some garden time on her own until things settle down. Your new dog will still be stressed from his move so do all you can to give him routine and consistency. If you have to intervene then call him away, with an "enough" command, reward him for listening, and find something to occupy him that is inconsistent with bothering his housemates. If he is crate trained he could spend some time with a stuffed Kong in his crate etc.
It sounds as if the older bitch has his measure and your younger bitch either has to learn to stand up for herself or accept that he is the stronger character and put up with it. She may not care enough to want to fight back. We find this attitude "unfair" because she was there first. In dogs, however, being the underdog is not seen as failure. It is by far the easier life in fact. You just sit back and let the others get on with all the worry.
It is still early days. You could juggle them around a little so that your middle bitch gets some garden time on her own until things settle down. Your new dog will still be stressed from his move so do all you can to give him routine and consistency. If you have to intervene then call him away, with an "enough" command, reward him for listening, and find something to occupy him that is inconsistent with bothering his housemates. If he is crate trained he could spend some time with a stuffed Kong in his crate etc.
Thank you - again! he isn't crate trained but we have the garden separated into three distinct areas - one of which is where he will stay at night and when we are not there for now. We are trying to introduce him to the girls one at a time so it isn't quite so stressful for any of them. At the moment, the girls are asleep; he keeps coming to and looking for them and goes away again so I guess its just going to be time. both girls are fairly laid back most of the time but he is full of energy and wants to keep on the go!
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umm. "Grabbing her by the neck" is only normal behavior in 2 scenarios -
* she's in heat, & he's mounted her, & she's now trying to slip away... or,
* it's part of already-ongoing rough play; wrestling, mouthing various body-parts.
Neither of those is happening. // Are all 3 dogs intact? If not, who's got gonads & who doesn't?
An approx 2-YO [presumed intact] M dog should have more manners than to grab a F's neck, ANY female's neck, whether she's younger, older, whatever age --- unless the 2 are either engaged in mating behavior / she's in heat, or they are comfortable buddies & playing bitey games. // Fs are generally deferred to at all times by M dogs, no matter their ages or repro status [intact or desexed], as a rule. The glaring exceptions are "don't take MY food", & "don't take MY object" -- whatever food / toy / bone / other is in the M dog's mouth, food bowl in front of him, or directly under his purview. But those would apply no matter what sex or age the intruder might be.
[Food that's left behind in the bowl is usually fair game - U left it, anyone can have it. Ditto for toys / bones left at some distance from the former user.]
Did he come from a breeder, a former owner where he was the ONLY dog [my hunch], or a shelter / rescue?
He sounds as if he has not had much experience, if any, in socializing with other dogs - he's crude, rude, intrusive, & forceful. In a word, he's a lout. // Hopefully the older F will get him quickly sorted, & he in turn will be swift to apologize to her, AND change his ways.
... but i'd also introduce him to BIGGER MALE dogs who are very, very tolerant of rude gits, & who are willing & able to teach him manners without taking his head off. A forgiving dog around 90# or more would be good.
Until he learns to be less of a bully, i wouldn't let him anywhere near the younger F when he's off leash - & in the house, even under my eye in the same room, i'd have a drag on his collar so i could quickly intervene at any time. Rude behavior should not be allowed - the other dogs clearly aren't making their displeasure known as early as they should, or he WOULD NEVER GET TO THE "biting necks" stage; they'd have effectively given him stink-eye while he was thinking about grabbing her neck, & he'd have restrained that impulse.
I would not leave him in the same room with either F, & walk out - he'd go with me & the Fs could stay, or the Fs leave with me & HE stays where he is, or all 3 come along... & i watch him closely for any hooligan impulses, to clip them before they are enacted.
If i was doing anything that required my close attention, he'd be behind a baby-gate or tall gate, & the Fs would be in the room with me [so they can't be near the gate, which could tempt him to go over, under, or thru it]. If the Fs must be in his line-of-sight, because of the house layout, i'd close a door between them for his peace of mind.
That he's putting teeth on them means either the Fs aren't communicating in crystal-clear ways, OR... he's ignoring early subtle warnings, & just grabs necks despite them. // Neither is good - if they can't tell him accurately, 'Bog off, ya sod!', or if he's blowing right thru clear & blatant warnings, it's Not Good. The future relations of all 3 will be tainted, if this goes on. They'll dislike him, & he will continue to ignore body-language & do what he dam* well wants until the Fs are forced to get forceful.
Things are liable to escalate.
IMO & IME. The first several weeks are the honeymoon period, & he's already showing a very ugly side.
Is he 18-MO, or older? U said 'about 2', hence my Q. Hopefully he's closer to 1.5-yrs, as he'll be a wee bit more flexible & reform faster! :cheers:
- terry
Terry Pride, CVA
member Truly Dog-Friendly
'dogs R dogs, wolves R wolves, & primates R us.' -- (™ 2007)
* she's in heat, & he's mounted her, & she's now trying to slip away... or,
* it's part of already-ongoing rough play; wrestling, mouthing various body-parts.
Neither of those is happening. // Are all 3 dogs intact? If not, who's got gonads & who doesn't?
An approx 2-YO [presumed intact] M dog should have more manners than to grab a F's neck, ANY female's neck, whether she's younger, older, whatever age --- unless the 2 are either engaged in mating behavior / she's in heat, or they are comfortable buddies & playing bitey games. // Fs are generally deferred to at all times by M dogs, no matter their ages or repro status [intact or desexed], as a rule. The glaring exceptions are "don't take MY food", & "don't take MY object" -- whatever food / toy / bone / other is in the M dog's mouth, food bowl in front of him, or directly under his purview. But those would apply no matter what sex or age the intruder might be.
[Food that's left behind in the bowl is usually fair game - U left it, anyone can have it. Ditto for toys / bones left at some distance from the former user.]
Did he come from a breeder, a former owner where he was the ONLY dog [my hunch], or a shelter / rescue?
He sounds as if he has not had much experience, if any, in socializing with other dogs - he's crude, rude, intrusive, & forceful. In a word, he's a lout. // Hopefully the older F will get him quickly sorted, & he in turn will be swift to apologize to her, AND change his ways.
... but i'd also introduce him to BIGGER MALE dogs who are very, very tolerant of rude gits, & who are willing & able to teach him manners without taking his head off. A forgiving dog around 90# or more would be good.
Until he learns to be less of a bully, i wouldn't let him anywhere near the younger F when he's off leash - & in the house, even under my eye in the same room, i'd have a drag on his collar so i could quickly intervene at any time. Rude behavior should not be allowed - the other dogs clearly aren't making their displeasure known as early as they should, or he WOULD NEVER GET TO THE "biting necks" stage; they'd have effectively given him stink-eye while he was thinking about grabbing her neck, & he'd have restrained that impulse.
I would not leave him in the same room with either F, & walk out - he'd go with me & the Fs could stay, or the Fs leave with me & HE stays where he is, or all 3 come along... & i watch him closely for any hooligan impulses, to clip them before they are enacted.
If i was doing anything that required my close attention, he'd be behind a baby-gate or tall gate, & the Fs would be in the room with me [so they can't be near the gate, which could tempt him to go over, under, or thru it]. If the Fs must be in his line-of-sight, because of the house layout, i'd close a door between them for his peace of mind.
That he's putting teeth on them means either the Fs aren't communicating in crystal-clear ways, OR... he's ignoring early subtle warnings, & just grabs necks despite them. // Neither is good - if they can't tell him accurately, 'Bog off, ya sod!', or if he's blowing right thru clear & blatant warnings, it's Not Good. The future relations of all 3 will be tainted, if this goes on. They'll dislike him, & he will continue to ignore body-language & do what he dam* well wants until the Fs are forced to get forceful.
Things are liable to escalate.
IMO & IME. The first several weeks are the honeymoon period, & he's already showing a very ugly side.Is he 18-MO, or older? U said 'about 2', hence my Q. Hopefully he's closer to 1.5-yrs, as he'll be a wee bit more flexible & reform faster! :cheers:
- terry
Terry Pride, CVA
member Truly Dog-Friendly
'dogs R dogs, wolves R wolves, & primates R us.' -- (™ 2007)
He is between 2 and 2.5. He was rescued as a pup from a short chain and near to starving and has been the only dog in his home. However, he allowed females to come into his garden and play but never males. His owners have had to go back to the UK - we all live in Bulgaria - and we took him in. My oldest girl is spayed, the middle one isn't yet - she is going for spaying n the near future but is halfway between seasons - and the new male has been neutered. The girls do fight back and he leaves them alone for a minute before going back in for another go. He was staying at kennels with a dog trainer for a while and he told me that the dog is very playful - which he is, to be fair - and much of it is him to trying to play - to me, it's more aggressive. He runs around the garden ignoring them and then closes in on them without any warning. I know it is early days but i want these dogs to get on and not have to be separated all the time.
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Do you know when your new boy was neutered? Did he get old enough to mate before he was neutered? The neck grabbing is so overtly sexual (and just plain rude) that I can't help but feel that this is still an issue between them and would hope that this will change when your girl is neutered. You didn't mention what breed and size your girls are- if they are GSDs then you can probably let them tell him exactly where to get off. Generally with GSDs although the boys have a bigger bark and reputation, they will eventually back down when challenged by the girls, who can be more bossy than a very bossy thing. If they're smaller and/or less assertive than GSDs then he could just be throwing his weight around because he can, for which you may need to step in.
Have you tried mixing them in a play situation which means that they play in the presence of each other but not actually interacting and seeing what happens? All of them engaged in playing tug with a human, for instance, they will be in the same space with their play circuits engaged but will have their attention on their respective humans rather than each other. It's a creative way to mix them, play side by side but not interact. The humans can stand as close or as far as necessary to allow full play without targeting each other and after a good game when they're all tired and in the same space all of their reactions to each other may be softer, allowing for more constructive work together.
Have you tried mixing them in a play situation which means that they play in the presence of each other but not actually interacting and seeing what happens? All of them engaged in playing tug with a human, for instance, they will be in the same space with their play circuits engaged but will have their attention on their respective humans rather than each other. It's a creative way to mix them, play side by side but not interact. The humans can stand as close or as far as necessary to allow full play without targeting each other and after a good game when they're all tired and in the same space all of their reactions to each other may be softer, allowing for more constructive work together.
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sounds as tho he's just another soccer-hooligan, & needs an ASBO. I don't buy the "he's just playful..." excuse from the ex-owner.
Grabbing necks is extremely rude & completely out of context, in these circs. They aren't wrestling & running zoomies, he's pouncing on them & grabbing necks without any precursor.
He'll sour the younger F on him permanently, if he continues this bullying behavior. // A neutered male dog half-again his size who won't take nonsense but won't whup the tar out of him, would be my 1st recourse. Maybe ask for a play-date if U see a laid-back large dog in the neighborhood? -- on neutral ground, without the Fs along.
Polite manners he learns via play with a larger dog can hopefully transfer to his interactions with the Fs at home - but i'd be watching him thru a microscope for some while, even after he stopped the neck-mauling. Bullies are very-liable to regress.
- terry
I don't buy the "he's just playful..." excuse from the ex-owner.Grabbing necks is extremely rude & completely out of context, in these circs. They aren't wrestling & running zoomies, he's pouncing on them & grabbing necks without any precursor.
He'll sour the younger F on him permanently, if he continues this bullying behavior. // A neutered male dog half-again his size who won't take nonsense but won't whup the tar out of him, would be my 1st recourse. Maybe ask for a play-date if U see a laid-back large dog in the neighborhood? -- on neutral ground, without the Fs along.
Polite manners he learns via play with a larger dog can hopefully transfer to his interactions with the Fs at home - but i'd be watching him thru a microscope for some while, even after he stopped the neck-mauling. Bullies are very-liable to regress.
- terry
he was neutered about a year ago. The other dogs are not GSD.s - one is a turkish Kangal, taller than he is and the other is a Bulgarian Shepherd dog, medium breed. Unfortunately, living in a Bulgarian village, most of the dogs here are un-neutered and are not trained dogs as it were, usually kept on chains. The only large dog i know, owned by another English, would likely kill him!
Today, they are all laying in the same space together, the older female who is the Alpha, is warning him off with low growls. The younger female is gazing at him, she will growl to warn him off but she doesnt like boisterous behaviour and he is very boistorous. Having watched him over the last 24 hours i would say he is definitely vying to be leader of the pack but i cant have him waltzing in and pushing his weight around like that. He is vey playful with us - and as i write, he just tried to grab the younger female and she gave him what for - he backed straight off so maybe they are getting the courage to stand up to him now! She will be going for spaying shortly so hopefully that will help.
He is going to be watched very closely and wil have lots of interaction with us and walks with the other dogs on neutral territory so hopefully we can get them working together eventually!
Today, they are all laying in the same space together, the older female who is the Alpha, is warning him off with low growls. The younger female is gazing at him, she will growl to warn him off but she doesnt like boisterous behaviour and he is very boistorous. Having watched him over the last 24 hours i would say he is definitely vying to be leader of the pack but i cant have him waltzing in and pushing his weight around like that. He is vey playful with us - and as i write, he just tried to grab the younger female and she gave him what for - he backed straight off so maybe they are getting the courage to stand up to him now! She will be going for spaying shortly so hopefully that will help.
He is going to be watched very closely and wil have lots of interaction with us and walks with the other dogs on neutral territory so hopefully we can get them working together eventually!
in for a penny, in for a pound. Both girls are starting to fire the warning shots and he is taking notice. He does go back but is taking longer to do so. So, i chucked them all in the back garden together and left them to get on with it. Fingers crossed, so far there have been a couple of set to's but he does appear to be taking notice of the warnings. He is a very well-trained dog, I have to say - he sits on command, comes when called, everything I would expect a dog of this age to do so hopefully this is just a settling in issue.When he attacks, i have been praising the females for warning him off and praising him when he backs off.
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Sounds like you are doing all the right things. The girls will rarely stand for obnoxious behaviour from other dogs unless they have problems of their own. Another male dog may just join in with him. I had two male GSD's together once. They nearly drove me to distraction with their constant play fighting! I would never have two similar sized males again. Bitches, on the other hand, if they fall out it is extremely serious so that, for me is a no no too
You may get a shift in things when your younger female comes back from being neutered. She will smell of anaesthetic and antiseptic so the other two dogs will be very suspicious of her. I would try to keep her separate until she regains her old scent and then re introduce them off territory when she is ready for walks ( and up to defending herself again ).
I have a Romanian rescue. If I start another thread on them would you be kind enough to take a look at it and give us an insight into them?
You may get a shift in things when your younger female comes back from being neutered. She will smell of anaesthetic and antiseptic so the other two dogs will be very suspicious of her. I would try to keep her separate until she regains her old scent and then re introduce them off territory when she is ready for walks ( and up to defending herself again ).
I have a Romanian rescue. If I start another thread on them would you be kind enough to take a look at it and give us an insight into them?
We had a more serious set-to - he went for the Alpha, ignored her warning and she put him straight to the extent that he yelped and went off on 3 legs! the next time, he went to go fo her, she looked at him and he ran off!! they are currently all fast asleep about 3 or 4 feet apart I hadn't thought of that with the spaying. She will definitely be kept away from both of them for a while until she is back to her old self. I can't have another male with this one, he doesn't like them and I have never kept 2 males together, always one to a couple of females. The girls have always been great together but we got the middle one when she was just a pup and older one was three - she is a mummy dog anyway so she took the pup under her wing and they have never fought in all the years we have had them
Yes, i will take a look for you, can't be any different from the Bulgarian rescues - of which there are many!!
I hadn't thought of that with the spaying. She will definitely be kept away from both of them for a while until she is back to her old self. I can't have another male with this one, he doesn't like them and I have never kept 2 males together, always one to a couple of females. The girls have always been great together but we got the middle one when she was just a pup and older one was three - she is a mummy dog anyway so she took the pup under her wing and they have never fought in all the years we have had themYes, i will take a look for you, can't be any different from the Bulgarian rescues - of which there are many!!
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Bravo! Sounds like your boss lady is truly a boss lady
If she can stop him in his tracks with a look then she will be doing a far more effective job at telling him what is inappropriate than you could ever do, and hopefully he will learn to toe the line really quickly and they can start building a good relationship once he's learned some manners in his interactions with the girlies.
Good on you for supporting your girls to let them tell him off. The reason for asking about the girls' breed is because of the risk if he was a lot bigger than them, but broadly similarly sized dogs can hopefully stand up for themselves enough.
It may be ugly, but they should only have to go through it to its fullest extent once and if nobody's bleeding then in dog terms it was actually very well controlled. All of them have weaponry that could do serious damage, so if no damage was done then that means that they were actually controlled in what they were doing.
If she can stop him in his tracks with a look then she will be doing a far more effective job at telling him what is inappropriate than you could ever do, and hopefully he will learn to toe the line really quickly and they can start building a good relationship once he's learned some manners in his interactions with the girlies.
Good on you for supporting your girls to let them tell him off. The reason for asking about the girls' breed is because of the risk if he was a lot bigger than them, but broadly similarly sized dogs can hopefully stand up for themselves enough.
It may be ugly, but they should only have to go through it to its fullest extent once and if nobody's bleeding then in dog terms it was actually very well controlled. All of them have weaponry that could do serious damage, so if no damage was done then that means that they were actually controlled in what they were doing.
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Dogs don't engage in the dearly-treasured "Alpha" nonsense that rapidly moved from late-60s science journals, directly into popular belief.
Even wolves don't 'fight for supremacy' within their own families, & that's what a 'pack' is, a mated pair & their offspring, which might include 3 sets of pups: the 2 to 3-YOs, who will soon disperse to find & court their own mates, the 1 to 2-YOs, who are still dependent on their parents as primary hunters & learning, & the youngest litter, born in spring of the same year.
The breeding pair are in charge simply because they're the parents - it has diddly to do with them fighting savagely with their own pups, & everything to do with teaching their pups to be successful adults, able to find & court a mate, find & defend a territory, & hunt for themselves and their own pups.
We humans have the same pattern; Mom & Dad are totally in charge when the kids are small, 'cuz they are completely dependent - 5-YOs can't drive a car, nor safely wander at will in a city, nor sign a contract, vote, or cook a nutritious meal. As the kids get older, the parents cede more & more freedom to them; eventually, the kids are adults, too, & are legally responsible for their own actions.
David Mech was the biologist whose studies, done on captive wolves who were no more a "pack" than refugees in a Red Cross camp are a "family". Turns out that assembling a pack of unrelated wolves from various places, & sticking them in a pen, doesn't result in natural family behavior - who knew?
He went on to do studies on wolf behavior in wild packs, published the corrections which turned his own previous research findings on their heads --- & it never caught on with the general public."The wolf on the hearth-rug" is a lot more romantic than "normally-socialized dogs defer many-times more often than they fight".
[His video-clip will come up if U simply type "Mech + Alpha" in the search-box on UTube.]
"Leaving them to get on with it" was not IMO either safe, or responsible. Any of the 3 could have been badly hurt, it only takes a second & one tooth in the right place for major blood loss, or a torn ligament / nerve or other life-changing damage. Our dogs depend on us to keep them safe; putting all 3 in the same area & walking away is, IMO, completely abandoning that responsibility.
I won't post again. Good luck to the dogs.
- terry
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BTW, if you can find a way to help him burn off his boisterousness without it needing to impact on the girls then that will be helpful. Tug/ chase/ agility/ schutzhund/ swimming/ scenting/ finding games/ going running together/ lots of choices of ways to challenge him so that he can be a bit less rude when he's around the girls.
I did not just walk away and leave them to get on with it! they were fully supervised by both of us at the same time and, as it happens, all three are now quite happily sleeping together and playing in the garden. He gets a lot more exercise than they do, playing with me in the garden, and chasing his favorite shoe around so we are gradually working some of the energy out of him before he gets with the girls. They are all more comfortable around each other and they are letting him know if he overdoes it. For now, they will still be kept separate at night and when we are not there, that will change gradually.
Thank you for the info. btw, i will look up that video
Thank you for the info. btw, i will look up that video
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Whilst you are right that dominance is no longer a factor to be considered in the dog-human interface there is definitely a pecking order amongst dogs who live together. One dog may be in charge of the sleeping arrangements and get first choice of the beds. Another may have first pickings over toys or one particular toy. As has been seen above they sort it out amongst themselves, usually, and if we intervene it can upset the balance that is being or is already established. In most multi dog households bitches will be the stronger characters and keep peace and harmony as long as all the other dogs respect her. Each dog will have its own "passion" and may defend it. If the others don't care about that passion then harmony rules. Only where two vie for the right to it will conflict erupt.Dogs don't engage in the dearly-treasured "Alpha" nonsense that rapidly moved from late-60s science journals, directly into popular belief.
Even wolves don't 'fight for supremacy' within their own families, & that's what a 'pack' is, a mated pair & their offspring, which might include 3 sets of pups: the 2 to 3-YOs, who will soon disperse to find & court their own mates, the 1 to 2-YOs, who are still dependent on their parents as primary hunters & learning, & the youngest litter, born in spring of the same year.
The breeding pair are in charge simply because they're the parents - it has diddly to do with them fighting savagely with their own pups, & everything to do with teaching their pups to be successful adults, able to find & court a mate, find & defend a territory, & hunt for themselves and their own pups.
We humans have the same pattern; Mom & Dad are totally in charge when the kids are small, 'cuz they are completely dependent - 5-YOs can't drive a car, nor safely wander at will in a city, nor sign a contract, vote, or cook a nutritious meal. As the kids get older, the parents cede more & more freedom to them; eventually, the kids are adults, too, & are legally responsible for their own actions.
David Mech was the biologist whose studies, done on captive wolves who were no more a "pack" than refugees in a Red Cross camp are a "family". Turns out that assembling a pack of unrelated wolves from various places, & sticking them in a pen, doesn't result in natural family behavior - who knew?
"The wolf on the hearth-rug" is a lot more romantic than "normally-socialized dogs defer many-times more often than they fight".
[His video-clip will come up if U simply type "Mech + Alpha" in the search-box on UTube.]
"Leaving them to get on with it" was not IMO either safe, or responsible. Any of the 3 could have been badly hurt, it only takes a second & one tooth in the right place for major blood loss, or a torn ligament / nerve or other life-changing damage. Our dogs depend on us to keep them safe; putting all 3 in the same area & walking away is, IMO, completely abandoning that responsibility.
I won't post again. Good luck to the dogs.
- terry
Lots of trainers use adult bitches to teach young upstart males some manners. That is all it is about just learning doggy manners. They are not trying to take over the world. Just as we would not put up with a dog that mouths us and jumps all over us so an established group within a house will teach its members to do the same.
An example of this was when we took on a nine year old rescue to come and live with our adult female. Both were well socialised so they rubbed along nicely together. We thought that the new dog did not like/had not been taught to play ball as we could never get him to get involved in ball games. He had been with us for about a year when, one day, I kicked a ball in front of him and he chased it and brought it back with a clear indication that I should throw it again. I was gobsmacked. Then I looked around and noticed that my bitch was nowhere to be seen. He and I played ball for a little while when suddenly my bitch appeared. He walked away from the ball with a clear body language saying "ball? what ball?. I had never seen her warn him off of "her" ball but she obviously had at some stage. He could eat her food, sleep in her bed but touch her ball? I don't think so!
i have 2 females, as you know. When Eddy goes "bully" the younger of the two, the older one stands up and starts growling at him. If he goes to the older one, the younger one will sit back out of the way and not take any notice. Surely that says something about a pecking order? Right now, both females are giving a good warning if he looks like he is going to jump them and he takes notice, backing off. What i do seem to have a problem with now is jealousy, in that he is somewhat jealous of the attention given to the other dogs. That is something i have to nip in the bud right away, especially as he is the new kid on the block
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GM2,
this is called "differential distribution" - one dog has a mania for balls of all sorts, & the others defer to that dog whenever there's a ball on scene.
Another is a fetching fool, & carries the household bumper around as if it was a pacifier, & the dog was a nursing infant - only lays it down to eat.
The 3rd is crazy for stuffed toys, mouthing, throwing, & chasing them, plays fetch, LIES on them in the crate... almost-never rips one.
In each instance, the dog's obsession is clearly defined, & the other dogs in the household DEFER to that dog over such objects - that they are items makes it more obvious to humans, who can be readily confused by which dog plays what role over more-amorphous things.
For instance:
a fellow trainer i knew had 5 dogs - a M Akita, a Dobe, a Lab, another mid-sized large breed, & a F JRT.
Outside the house, the M Akita was the 1st to alert on any potential threat & the one who decided if it was genuine & actionable. // His favorite lookout position was across the head of the stairs, going from backyard / garden to the deck across the back of the house [fenced yard]. Any dog who wanted to approach the house had to go over, which was unthinkable, or around him - which required permission. They'd stand & look appeasing, he'd look at them & turn away, & they'd tiptoe around his butt.
Inside the house, the F JRT who weighed all of 10# took the same role - if someone knocked or a car pulled in the drive, she was the one who listened, & if the car engine was unfamiliar, she'd hurtle off her watch-station toward the door barking like a maniac, with all 4 larger dogs as back-up.
They didn't FIGHT for those roles - they assumed them, & the other dogs DEFERRED to their choice. It's like running for elected office - the dogs all have various talents & strengths, & the other dogs simply recognize them, & get outta the way. Nobody engages in a knock-down, drag-out battle for supremacy.
Most dog-fights are over RESOURCES: scarce things that they need to survive, to reproduce, or things that they desire intensely & will fight to retain.
- food [in a bowl generally belongs to a particular dog; lying on the floor or ground is more likely to be the cause of fights].
- valued chew-items [bones, antlers, hooves...]
- a bitch in heat
... those are physical needs / wants, or the drive to reproduce.
- ACCESS to the owner / handler
- ACCESS to a comfy lounging area [sofa, shady spot with a dug pit to cool in, ____ ]
- ATTENTION from a single human when several dogs want it simultaneously
... those are desires rather than 'needs', & while some dogs will stink-eye, jostle, or growl over them, most won't get into an actual serious fight.
Fighting is expensive & dangerous; U can get hurt. Dogs have a very complex & extensive vocabulary of body language, gestures, & vocalizations that are intended to AVOID actual physical conflict, if it's possible. Very few dogs enjoy fighting; they exist, but they're rare.
Deference makes canine society go 'round; it's a hundred or more times as common as even mild aggro, but it's not "sexy", it's boring & humdrum. // Cesar Millan would never have become a household-name if he hadn't exploited aggro & gotten lots of eyeballs on his dramatically-scripted, tightly controlled episodes.
He not only specialized in aggression-as-drama, he CREATED It - by deliberately 'working up' dog-aggro "guest dogs" off-camera, using a dog-aggro white GSD that belonged to one of the film-crew as his stooge to get good, dramatic, drool-slinging, teeth-bared, roaring fury on camera.
Any dog who excitedly charges down the beach in pursuit of a flung toy, & reaches it only to encounter the dog for whom it was thrown, will 99.99999 times of every 100, instantly look sheepish & apologetic, & back off from "their" toy. All it took was a hard glance from the 'owner', the interloper ducks their head & turns away, the 'owner' triumphantly nabs the toy, & then returns it to the handler.
The entire communicative exchange took seconds - no physical contact, rarely even a growl, just body-language on both sides & 1 meaningful glance from the 'owner' of the toy.
These exchanges happen all the time - in multi-dog homes, at dog parks, on beaches, anywhere dogs encounter one another. Fights are NOT "the way dogs solve things", they are actually quite rare. [Not to say that SOME dogs are not dog-aggro, dog-reactive, resource-guarding, etc - of course, that's true! - but they aren't even 1 in 10, collectively.]
Bitches, like puppies, have special status - a M dog who will seriously quarrel with a F dog, in or out of estrus, entire or spayed, is a rare male. Snark, yes - but being genuinely aggressive toward Fs is both rare & indicates problems in that M dog, IME. // He's either not well-socialized, wants to own everything conceivably own-able vs own what's his portion, or is otherwise socially aberrant, to one degree or another.
So yes - Fs are often used to teach manners, because while a young M thug *might* just be tempted to start a scuffle with another M dog, he won't typically fight a F who lays down the law. He'll politely mumble, "yes'm...", & slink off. A few of these, & he's getting the message - without a drop of blood shed, & no violence, usually.
An actual set pattern of dominant & submissive behaviors is so rare, that in the approx 40-years i've worked with clients' dogs, I may have seen 2 such instances, & 1 i'm not sure qualified, because it wasn't consistent.
Dominance / submission DOESN'T occur between random stranger-dogs, nor can we correctly refer to a dog as "dominant" - s/he is dominant To another specific dog, as no one dog is ever 'dominant' over all others they might meet, that's an oxymoron.
In genuine dom / submissive pairs [& it's ALWAYS a relationship between only TWO dogs; it's dyadic, neither a lifestyle nor a personality trait nor a general habit, it's Dog A & Dog B, or Dog B & Dog C, etc], the submissive dog displays appeasing behavior EVERY TIME the 2 meet. Think about that. Active submission behaviors include licking the other dog's face especially the corner of the mouth like a begging pup, crouching while tail-wagging with tail low & rapid short side-to-side wags of the last 3rd, & other very obvious appeasing signals.
How many dogs display such signals multiple times a day, when they encounter their supposedly 'dominant' k9 housemate? -- Can U name one pair, in which the subordinate consistently shows such signals & the dominant dog graciously accepts their homage?
If U can... can U get us any video of such a moment? I'd love to see it.
In sum, dominance is not about status - it's about resources; it's an event, not a personality trait; & deference is many-times more common, every day & any day.
Dogs don't waste a whole lotta time & energy on quarreling; dogs who do, are warped or damaged, IME.
- terry
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