Over-registration/not Breeding/using Imports

[beaker]

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this is such a worrying subject, i know we are still far from the staffie,labrador leagues but the increase in whippet litter registrations, (esspecially as far as i can see litters that appear to have little merit) is likely to put huge strains on our rescue society.

though i'm not involved, i suspect that they have already seen a recent change in the numbers coming to them and where previously they have been in the enviable position of having more homes waiting than whippets, i am really concerned that this is going to dramatically change for the worse.

Our rescue is just that, a rescue, for poor unfortunates that have for one reason or another fallen on hard times, they should not have to mop up our "excess"

there are puppy peddling sites out there (we know which ones) that week in week out have the same pups, same breeders desperately pushing their ever ageing pups.

whole litters of 20 week old's still being advertised.price slowly dropping each week in an attempt to 'get rid'

the average price of a whippet seems to have just about doubled in 5 years, there is little reason for this other than greed. feeding, registration costs etc havn't increased such an amount, whippets are generally easy whelpers, with few expensive c sections, they generally have good sized litters, so they have recently moved into the radar of some cash grabbing puppy farmers.

when i hear about puppy farmers keeping dogs in appaling conditions it makes me sick to the core but when i hear whippets are in there amongst the list being sold i just sink with despair.

rescue on the increase, whippets being puppy farmed, decent honest breeders not having homes because of a flood of unwanted poorly thought out pups, pups going into rescue at 8 weeks.... it's a damn sorry state of affairs. IMO

 

[~JO~]

the average price of a whippet seems to have just about doubled in 5 years, there is little reason for this other than greed.

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I think this is a bit of an exageration, 5/6 years ago pups were going for about £350 - now £450-£500 which is still quite an increase.

In the dog papers this week, whippet registrations in 2007 were up 15% on 2006

 

[kris]

the trouble is if good breeders who care about their pups stop breeding cos theyre worried about the lack of good homes for their babies than what happens?the not so caring will step in to fill the gap? i still say education is the answer.let the public see what goes on in these hell holes for dogs.let them see whats hidden from them when they buy a pup from a puppy superstore or when they buy from a puppy farmer who doesnt ask them any question and seems more interested in where the money is rather than where the pup is going and if its going to be well taken care of.has anyone ever run a campaign about puppy farming where there have been tv ads and massive publicity about it?not as far as i know.

i can see a lot of problems ahead for whippets. when people are being so greedy to make money theyre not bothered about how many pups are being bred then somethings got to suffer and as usual it will be the dogs not the people.how sad for such a lovely breed as this.they are gentle,sweet natured and loving.they dont deserve this

 

[wild whippies]

I don't know how you guys manages your showing but within racing the 'ideal' setup is to have a puppy that's in training, an adult that's currently racing and a dog that's raced in the veteran class.

Now if the same applies within showing, surely it would be wise to only be breeding maybe once every 3 years? (Presuming the litter your breed you retain a puppy from) See to me, if you don't retain a pup from your own linings then your reasons for breeding are circumspect.

The other advantage of this is if others also value your breeding, you should have aquired a waiting list, I myself am eagerly awaiting a certain pup to be born within the racing world.

 

[JAX]

I would find it rather puzzling if people could not sell their pups yet kept breeding?  Surely if somebody is knee deep in puppies that nobody wants, why would they think of mating another bitch?  Unless they are totally obsessed with breeding a new show winning stock for themselves, and do not care about anything else.  :wacko:   :unsure:

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Unfortuanatly most of these whippets being bred are not show/racing people , They are just in it to make money , I recently went with someone to a place in Buxton, when asked if she showed the answer was` No, I was going to race them but dont have time `, So I repleid ,` so you just use them for breeding then `. and quite blatantly she replied` YES ` :rant: :rant:

These pups are being sold as show/racing or pets . ,

She has 6 breeding bitches and 1 stud dog , plus 3 other dogs of a spaniel type , which Im sure she breeds too , The council are just not interested :rant:

 

[whippetmad]

I would find it rather puzzling if people could not sell their pups yet kept breeding?  Surely if somebody is knee deep in puppies that nobody wants, why would they think of mating another bitch?  Unless they are totally obsessed with breeding a new show winning stock for themselves, and do not care about anything else.   :wacko:   :unsure:

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Unfortuanatly most of these whippets being bred are not show/racing people , They are just in it to make money , I recently went with someone to a place in Buxton, when asked if she showed the answer was` No, I was going to race them but dont have time `, So I repleid ,` so you just use them for breeding then `. and quite blatantly she replied` YES ` :rant: :rant:

These pups are being sold as show/racing or pets . ,

She has 6 breeding bitches and 1 stud dog , plus 3 other dogs of a spaniel type , which Im sure she breeds too , The council are just not interested :rant:

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Totally agree with Jax :thumbsup: I,ve also come across a breeder who had five litters all at the same time :rant: living in poor conditions.After alot of calls etc the Rspca finally made a visit and agreed the breeder needed to improved their living conditions.We are waiting for a update.

 

[chelynnah]

I don't know how you guys manages your showing but within racing the 'ideal' setup is to have a puppy that's in training, an adult that's currently racing and a dog that's raced in the veteran class.Now if the same applies within showing, surely it would be wise to only be breeding maybe once every 3 years? (Presuming the litter your breed you retain a puppy from) See to me, if you don't retain a pup from your own linings then your reasons for breeding are circumspect.

The other advantage of this is if others also value your breeding, you should have aquired a waiting list, I myself am eagerly awaiting a certain pup to be born within the racing world.

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This is basically my situation. I have a 10yo whippet-cross which got me into whippets. When she was 3 we got Savannah. When Savvy was 3.5 we got Teya. We bred Teya at 3.5 so now we have pup, Limit/Open (haven't decided yet) and Veteran where there are Veteran classes, or else Savvy will stay home with Chelsea. IF I breed again it will be in 3 years from one of these pups. For me personally 3 years between them is a good age. BUT it's not definite if I will because it all depends on how well Chelsea is at the time as well as other factors.

But this is just me - I'm not passing judgement on anyone who does things differently. Heck, I was only ever going to have 2 dogs at a time and was never going to breed

Wendy

 

[wild whippies]

Well yeah Wendy it's not set in stone, but it's probably a reasonable method to steer close to. :thumbsup:

 

[maggie217]

I know someone who breeds certain popular little terrier breeds. They are her total source of income. She lives in an area where the kennels are assessible to a large population. The dogs are kept in good clean kennel conditions, have their vaccs etc. The kennels are properly registered with the LA and inspected, so of course, all appears above board to puppy purchasers. Everything is indeed above board, but it is a purely commercial venture. Whilst the puppies are all KC registered and sold with pedigrees, puppy packs etc the bitches and stud dogs are dogs of no particular merit. The bitches are not shown, the stud dog is used on all the bitches, whether suited or not. The buyers of the puppies, as they only want a pet, do not appreciate the lack of quality in the parents. In October, the other year, she told me she had 9 litters to sell before Xmas.

We should all be aware that puppy farmers do not necessarily keep their dogs in poor conditions but they are guilty of flooding the market with inferior stock. When a breed loses popularity, or they aren't selling so well, the bitches are put to sleep and a new breed started. What happens to the bitches when too old to be legitimatly bred from? You tell me.

A lot of the general public, who just want a pet, often, in their ignorance think that it is show stock they should avoid. A good friend of mine has just bought a labrador puppy but didn't "want a highly bred show dog". Of course, it came from a puppy farm.

Pauline

 

[kris]

no not all puppy farmers keep their dogs in filthy conditions.but most of them do.its not economically viable to spend lots of money on cleaning the kennels and making sure theyre well fed and well kept.and at the end of the day if its an enterprise thats all about money then they will begrudge spending it on the dogs. :thumbsup:

A lot of the general public, who just want a pet, often, in their ignorance think that it is show stock they should avoid. A good friend of mine has just bought a labrador puppy but didn't "want a highly bred show dog". Of course, it came from a puppy farm

like i said before its all about ignorance. the public need educating.an acquaintance of ours went to mayfield kennels(the names been changed now but we all know it as mayfield kennels,its the place that advertises the puppy/dog lovers registration scheme for people to register their dogs with that have no papers,another money making scheme) :angry: in manchester a well known puppy mill and bought a spaniel pup.he didnt know any better.if id have known he was looking for a pup id have told him what the background of that place and others like it is. :rant: what annoys me is places like this charge well above what a decent breeder charges for a puppy.and people pay it thinking theyre getting something good cos its so expensive! :wacko:

 

[seaspot_run]

I would find it rather puzzling if people could not sell their pups yet kept breeding?  Surely if somebody is knee deep in puppies that nobody wants, why would they think of mating another bitch?  Unless they are totally obsessed with breeding a new show winning stock for themselves, and do not care about anything else.  :wacko:   :unsure:

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Here in the US, that is EXACTLY what is happening in the kennels where I see this as a problem. They have some well-known winners and don't have any problems placing their show stock, so they overbreed for the show market and then end up with a lot of pets they can't place.

OR

A lot of people are affected by where they get their dogs from. Their role models are people with money and lots of space and maybe even kennel help. Such kennels can turn out a lot of litters a year and they account for many of our top dogs. More litters per year out of more good bitches bred to champion sires=more champions out there winning.

But if you are someone who lacks those advantages of kennel space, kennel help, not having to be gone 8-9 hours a day to another job to support your hobby, etc. then it's a bad idea to get into an "arms race" with such kennels trying to grab the brass ring.

With predictable results of unsold pets at 5-10 months of age stacking up like cordwood.

Thankfully, this is the exception, not the rule.

A big show kennel may account for dozens of Top 10 show dogs over time. A small hobby breeder may account for one, two if they are very lucky and very clever, and more than two if they are amazingly gifted at it and form partnerships that are productive with other breeders and people who have backing money. You have to accept this and work within your limitations.

I am speaking generally, here. This is not a Whippet-specific problem. It's true of many breeds which have a pet market that is limited.

The Whippet is nowhere near as popular as a pet in the USA as it is in the UK. But there is enough interest to sustain sensible show and race breeders with enough pet homes. Not enough to allow everyone in this hobby to breed 3+ litters per year.

 

[seaspot_run]

the average price of a whippet seems to have just about doubled in 5 years, there is little reason for this other than greed.

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I think this is a bit of an exageration, 5/6 years ago pups were going for about £350 - now £450-£500 which is still quite an increase.

In the dog papers this week, whippet registrations in 2007 were up 15% on 2006

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That sounds pretty close to what things are going here...based on exchange rate (which right now means I hand over many of my hard-earned dollars at the currency exchange and get a handful of quid in return).

6 years ago I charged $500-600 for pets, now at $800 I am one of the cheaper people to buy from in the northeast, from what I hear. There are breeders in New England who get $1000-1200 for pet Whippets.

To some extent, this is an effort to keep Whippets priced in line with other medium-scarcity purebred dogs from quality breeders. We don't want our dogs to be priced like the really expensive to breed dogs, but we also don't want our dogs to look like they are cheap, giveaway dogs. People who pay a good price for a pup usually try to take great care of it and attach more value to the dog.

They are more committed to it, and less likely to dump it the first time it eats a sofa.

 

[wild whippies]

You see what gets to me is this theory that if it is a show dog the litter produced will be superior - that's no guarantee especially as pet owners aren't keeping tabs on the show results. The amount of friends I have outside of the dog world who say 'oh my dogs got lots of red in their pedigree' is unbelievable and almost always on the far right of the pedigree.

I can understand why some pet owners look in the opposite direction of show dogs - especially when it comes to working or racing dogs because let's face it they're generally much different! They shouldn't be but that's the way it is and will be until someone introduces show classes combined with competitive classes that suit that dogs purpose.

So the naivity of buying a non-show dog under the pretences that it may be hardier can be just as easily construed as a pet owner buying a show bred puppy thinking it will be disease free. 'Buyer beware' comes to mind and unfortunately pet owners don't make much efforts to make themselves 'aware'.

The Kennel Club don't (or rather won't) exercise their power but you can.

Only sell pups to pet homes with clauses documented on their registration that they are not to be bred from.

Do you really need that stud fee? Is the bitches owner as reputable as yourself? - There are many out there who value their pups dearly but do you value your stud dogs sperm as much?

Pressure your breed group and the Kennel Club into exercising these methods along with other issues like raising the breeding age, scrapping top Stud / top Dam awards etc etc.

The only way you'll make the KC pedigree whippet have some kind of worth is if you all take such action to make the breed exclusive. Yes there is a sort of self sacrifice involved but with success comes sacrifice and this is something I would expect of any breeder acting responsibly. :thumbsup:

 

[Avalonia]

I was a little bit shocked when I opened my computer this morning and discovered I had started a 'new' topic on the forum, as I didn't remember doing so (w00t) -- and then saw that it had been hived off of a previous discussion to focus discussion more closely on breeding practices and the proper husbanding of this breed we all love.

As I noted, though we have owned whippets since 1982 we only bred our first litter in 1990, after we really had decided on the focus of for our breeding program. We were lucky enough in this to be able to draw on the experience of my mother, who was a breeder of Rough Collies in the 50s and 60s, my paternal grandfather who bred field dogs (Irish Setters) for an astonishing 70 years (first litter at 17 and last at 87), and my maternal grandfather who bred English Setter field dogs for over 40 with his brother. All were proponents of linebreeding and all three developed their breeding stock from English and Irish bloodlines. So it was no surprise that though we are now Canadians we went looking for our bloodlines in England.

We have stuck very religiously with our program ever since, relying on one English bloodline (Nevedith) as our primary bloodline and one American bloodline (Sporting Fields) as our outcross line. Over the years we have bred sometimes none, sometimes one, sometimes two litters in any year. Most of our litters have been small -- it may be the bloodlines -- with typical litters of 4 to 6 pups.

In 2007 we bred one litter with a total of 5 pups, one of which we have kept to continue our lines. The other four were placed in homes on a waiting list we maintain that at any time has more than a dozen pre-screened approved homes waiting for dogs. We do not charge a separate price for pets vs show quality, instead relying on our experience and knowledge of our lines to be able to select the most likely show and future breeding stock prospects and retain them for ourselves or others seeking specific bloodlines from a given litter. But frankly we are every bit as happy to find loving committed homes of people who will cherish a dog for a lifetime purely as a companion, as we all know a show dogs career is very short while a dog's life is not. So the quality of the home and the suitability of that dog for that home must always trump the potential show career. Many of the dogs most recently placed (in the past four or five years) represent the second generation of our dogs with owners whose first dogs from us have gone into old age and passed on.

For 2008 we made the decision to breed two litters because two of our most important whippet girls are reaching the age where they cannot and will not be used again. Those who know us know that we adore male dogs and if we could figure out a way to have a good breeding program by just keeping males, we would do so. Our male dogs outnumber our girl dogs for that reason! But we cannot plan for the future without a few very good girlso we maintain a small number of girls, some of whom are now starting to get very long in the tooth. Several are between 10 and 12, several are between 5 and 7 and now there are three youngsters.

Both our 2008 litters have been bred already because we have been waiting on both females since the middle of 2007 and expected to breed one of the litters then. One has already had her litter three weeks ago -- of 3 female pups -- and we are keeping one again. The other two pups have been waited for with anticipation by two couples who are anxious to add a second companion to the whippet they already have at home from us. The second litter is due within the week, and was again bred because we are hoping for a quality bitch from this dam. We have a healthy reservation list for this litter again, and right now our only wish is that they are born healthy and there are lots of males, because our waiting list for males from this particular mating really is exceptional.

We charge $700 Cdn. for our dogs, who come tattooed, with first shots, a full health warranty, Canadian Kennel Club registration in the name of the new owner/s. All our dogs are sold on a contract which requires that anyone who cannot keep a dog for any reason (doesn't work out, family situation, personal illness etc. etc.) MUST return the dog to us for rehoming (with us). We are active in rescue activities, and have rescued and rehomed whippets and greyhounds, and a vareity of non-hound breeds -- some of whom we have kept.

We try to mentor new people who come into the breed and seek counsel on bloodlines/conformation/health and other areas without being judgmental about others breeding programs or new ideas. We prefer to focus on the obvious important points: healthy bloodlines, the importance of finding them and maintaining them through a well conceived line breeding program, because that is the best means to ensure correct conformation, good temperament, and suitability of the resultant pups as family pets and companions first and foremost. Our goal is to try to leave the breed at least a little better than we found it when we entered it -- but hopefully better -- and certainly not in any way worse.

Whippets are for us a lifelong love affair and not a ready source of income. The bit of money we have ever made from sale of our pups has always been less than 10% of the annual expenses we pay to house, feed, vaccinate, train and show our dogs. In our view, this is how it should be -- done for love, always.

Lanny

 

[petrezselyem]

Very interesting topic.

The only one thing I would like to add....somebody mentioned that those half-baked litters -bred by non showing/racing people- are only about money.

How can they get money if they could not place the dogs they bred?

The truth is that there are lot of laymen who are interested in the breed but without any preconceptions.....often buying those pups. I don't think we could do anything against that symptom.

And about money again: breeding is simply submarginal. It can happen that a litter itself is profitable, but the responsible breeding is very uneconomic, hihi. It is a very expensive hobby. Shows, long trips, abroad mating, expensive imports, quality food, healthy circumstances...lot of work and big responsibility. Some sparkling moments in the rings or on the tracks and lot of busy ( but happy) days at home working with the dogs.

I have to come round to Lanny. Absolutely agree. To many kennels, too many litters and scant quality.

But who has the philosopher's stone?

Who has the authorisation to tell the others what is quality or what is good?

It was not needed is everything flew in the moderated channel.

I am not really happy about the popularity of the breed. Popularity means puppy mills, anticipated profit and failure of qualities. This is why there are too many breeders nowadays. They think the breed is easy to sell because it is popular.

Some months ago I told my friend a very rude thing: "Whippet here is like a woman's wardrobe. Full, but there is nothing to put on."

(We was searching for quality males from well bred bloodlines. The result was crushing.....a whale of males everywhere, but just a few quality males in Europe.)

And back to the money. The european organization's interest is in the high number of pedigrees. And the member organization's too.

That is why we can't reach an extra rigid breeding regulation here in Hungary for example.

What we can do: follow our own quality requirements and hope that there is some interest in quality. Breeding will be more expensive because we have to adapt to the dumping prizes of the quantity breeding. And can do hope that time is on our side ) .

 

[Seraphina]

A lot of the general public, who just want a pet, often, in their ignorance think that it is show stock they should avoid.  A good friend of mine has just bought a labrador puppy but didn't "want a highly bred show dog".  Of course, it came from a puppy farm.
Pauline

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Or maybe they just want old fashioned Labrador (or any other breed)as it was in their youth? Not the kind of dog that is in this moment the "in" thing in the ring. I often get calls from people who want a "proper" Whippet, they want 17" girl just like they had 25 years ago. They are not interested in in 20" bitches with heavy bones.

So many breeds became so polished that they are almost unrecognizable from those bred only 50 years ago.

This was my Irish Setter born about 1962, he was a typical example of his breed, and trained to work in the field

 

[maggie217]

A lot of the general public, who just want a pet, often, in their ignorance think that it is show stock they should avoid.   A good friend of mine has just bought a labrador puppy but didn't "want a highly bred show dog".   Of course, it came from a puppy farm.

Pauline

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Or maybe they just want old fashioned Labrador (or any other breed)as it was in their youth? Not the kind of dog that is in this moment the "in" thing in the ring. I often get calls from people who want a "proper" Whippet, they want 17" girl just like they had 25 years ago. They are not interested in in 20" bitches with heavy bones.

So many breeds became so polished that they are almost unrecognizable from those bred only 50 years ago.

This was my Irish Setter born about 1962, he was a typical example of his breed, and trained to work in the field

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I am sure you are right in lots of cases, and of course breeds have altered, some a lot. Not always for the better, but my point is that there is no skill or care put behind the breeding at these 'pet puppy farms' and some very poor specimens are produced. For example, some of the terriers at the puppy farm I mentioned had very extreme cow hocks, a lot had very overshot mouths. I know these faults just may arise anywhere but these faults were in evidence because stock with those faults were being bred from.

Although there are faults in lots of breeds, some more than others, at least puppies from show stock [or performance stock] will have been bred with some thought for construction, etc.

I do agree with Wild Whippies comment that dogs and bitches going to pet homes should be endorsed 'not to be bred from'.

Pauline

 

[Seraphina]

I am sure you are right in lots of cases, and of course breeds have altered, some a lot.  Not always for the better, but my point is that there is no skill or care put behind the breeding at these 'pet puppy farms' and some very poor specimens are produced.Although there are faults in lots of breeds, some more than others, at least puppies from show stock [or performance stock] will have been bred with thought for construction, etc.

I do agree with Wild Whippies comment that dogs and bitches going to pet homes should be endorsed 'not to be bred from'.

Pauline

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I do agree with you, but I also understand why some people will go to breeders who do not breed for show ring. All my pet pups go with Limited register papers and only to people who I am pretty sure (well, as much as anybody can be sure) will not try to breed unregistered litter.

 

[Seraphina]

The only one thing I would like to add....somebody mentioned that those half-baked litters -bred by non showing/racing people- are only about money.
How can they get money if they could not place the dogs they bred?

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These people do cut corners, often feed their dogs only very cheap food, may not use good quality worming products, may not vaccinate. I doubt if they do such things as pre-mating swabs, post parturition examinations, pay vet to remove dew claws etc.

 

[meddling]

I've been reading this/these thread(s) with interest - Although only 7 months old I've been debating whether or not to have a litter from Bluebell when she's about 3 - I'd love her daughter - but that's obviously not guaranteed - and Whippets seem to be able to have such big litters - if she could just produce one little perfect girl I'd go for it!!

So this thread has just about persuaded me not to have a litter ever - but buy her a companion in a few years time - so next question is do I go for another Whippet :wub: ...an Iggie :wub: ...an Iggie/whippet :wub: ...or a Beddie/Whippet :wub: ...

They're all so flipping lovely - that's the problem :lol: