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[Harold de Jongh]

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am new to all this but let me see if I have this right. A european dog with paperwork that would allow it to show at any UK KC show inc Crufts (assuming qualified) most likely couldnt race at a WCRA event!
now pardon me for being an idiot if I have this wrong but why ever not? Is their a better explanation than because? surely if KC has approved the paperwork that should be the end of it subject to the necessary height and weight restrictions.

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Because the WCRA rules carry the rider that a dog must have "an ACCEPTABLE 5 gen. ped." . Now most of the european racers have at the back of them J' Andy Thor & some have lines going back to Good as Gold both English non-peds. In this day & age these dog appear on the 6th gen or even further back, so the 5 gen ped is all registered ped dogs. BUT!!! the 5 gen ped isn't "ACCEPTABLE" 'cos there are non-peds further back. See how it works? . That way everybody keeps the same cosy little gene pool while more & more little faults creep into it.

Terry Smith

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Every whippet all over the world has got non-peds further back in the pedigree then....As far as I know is Andy Thor is also in the pedigree of my dog.

 

[Strike Whippets]

Well as Terry said its meant to be an acceptable 5 generation pedigree ......The likes of Andy Thor are normally 7+ generations back, but there is such a fear of people cheating and gaining an upper hand in speed that the WCRA will never except these pedigrees ...........The funny thing is I wonder how fast the Andy Thor line actually is considering we are breeding faster dogs now as time goes on ......I would imagine that there wouldn't be much difference in the old non peds speed compared to our ped racers today ......Plus the likely hood of the non ped speed being there would be so watered down by the other lines in these European dogs, it would be very unlikely there would be anything for the WCRA to worry about .........Its just a short sighted view to take IMO, and as Terry and Carmel have said its just another way of making sure our gene pools stay small .......My friend in America gave me 2 squeaky clean pedigrees that came back to English show/coursing lines ......These were also refused because Tony had been banned from a club in America ......This club allows dogs hes bred to race there though :wacko: ......I think some people are a tad scared of change

 

[urchin]

Another duffer newbie question - who is/was Andy Thor and what was he up to that sullied his reputation?

Sorry, I've become fascinated by this topic.

Also does anyone have any info at all on the sprinter class that was mentioned? As the owner of a blummin big pedi whippet I'd love to know where we might be able to do this!

 

[Strike Whippets]

J' Andy Thor was a non ped bred Whippet that went over to France and was OK'ed by show judges and was able to register as a pedigree ........... I think this is correct ........Either that or it was his dad .......Its not uncommon, and as long as the judges except the dog as looking, moving etc ....like a ped they can get registered .........Its a great way of keeping the gene pool fresh and dogs in it of show quality

 

[Lurch and his tribe]

ok so with all this in mind then surely the introduction or import of new dogs is a very sound idea infact limited gene pools are one of the KC's hot topics.

next question (another newbie one) what stops a breeder claiming a bitch was covered by a qualified dog but infact using a non ped dog or dog that isnt WCRA approved or even just acquiring a very young pup and claiming it was from a litter of approved dogs! Are their DNA tests???

 

[IanGerman]

ok so with all this in mind then surely the introduction or import of new dogs is a very sound idea infact limited gene pools are one of the KC's hot topics.
next question (another newbie one) what stops a breeder claiming a bitch was covered by a qualified dog but infact using a non ped dog or dog that isnt WCRA approved or even just acquiring a very young pup and claiming it was from a litter of approved dogs! Are their DNA tests???

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Don't bring up DNA tests please - WW3 will break out!

But to answer your question - nothing at all. The whole of the pedigree system is based on trust and blind faith in your fellow breeder. Now as anyone who knows human beings will tell you - that's a recipe for disaster! In most breeds outcrossing would be pointless - a lab crossed with a retriever will not look a particularly good specimen of either. But if you are NOT breeding for looks but for some other characteristic (like speed for instance) then cross breeding a whippet and greyhound DOES more often than not improve speed, and because the 2 breeds are so similar, the smaller of the litter will usually pass muster as a "whippet" - the non-ped racers do this a lot.

The whole idea of pedigree whippet racing is to keep the breed "pure" in as much as anyone knows - it's entirely possible, even probable that even pukka show-bred pedigrees could be telling a lie, albeit accidentally. A breeder with both dogs and bitches who wasn't present when his bitch was mounted (sorry to be so graphic!) may well name the dog he THOUGHT was the sire. It's just a hypothetical scenario of course but who's to say it hasn't already happened. The sinister bit is when an unscrupulous breeder would do it deliberately to put in a bit of extra speed from a non-ped racing whippet but declare the sire as something slower but legitimate. There have been whisperings over the years that this has happened already but I won't be repeating them here thanks very much!

I can see both sides of the argument - the whippet is a manufactured breed from relatively late times and is KNOWN to have terrier in it's manufacture, but the legislators of our sport are trying to keep it clean from some more recent point in the breed's history. Quite where that point is I have no idea but I applaud their aims. Without at least TRYING to keep the breed pure we may as well just allow anything and call it dog racing.

Sorry if non-pedders are upset by this - I actually envy your freedom to do what you do, but with my lot firmly based along what I hope are genuine show lines I have to race with the peds - well try anyway :lol:

By the way Harold - the height limit for your dog would be 533mm

 

[Harold de Jongh]

Another duffer newbie question - who is/was Andy Thor and what was he up to that sullied his reputation?
Sorry, I've become fascinated by this topic.

Also does anyone have any info at all on the sprinter class that was mentioned? As the owner of a blummin big pedi whippet I'd love to know where we might be able to do this!

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This is the pedigree of Andy Thor: http://perso.orange.fr/levriers/andy_thor.htm

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

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Also does anyone have any info at all on the sprinter class that was mentioned? As the owner of a blummin big pedi whippet I'd love to know where we might be able to do this!

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Some clubs will let you club race an oversize dog so long as he isn't G/hnd size. Oxford & the Indi used to let big 'uns race but things do change.

If you live anywhere near Tyldesley the A & T will definitely let you race. Ped numbers vary but there are at least a couple down most weeks.

 

[Strike Whippets]

ok so with all this in mind then surely the introduction or import of new dogs is a very sound idea infact limited gene pools are one of the KC's hot topics.

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You'd think so wouldn't you .........This is just plainly down to the WCRA and the fear of a backlash if a European dog with a non ped distant relative was passported and beat our racers .......Though the Whippet club has NO problem at all and these dogs that are entering the UK's show dogs gene pool .....and are going on to be show champions etc, but us racers STILL wouldn't get a passport for a pup sired by a English show champion .......Hmmmm makes sense doesnt it ?? :wacko:

 

[Strike Whippets]

next question (another newbie one) what stops a breeder claiming a bitch was covered by a qualified dog but infact using a non ped dog or dog that isnt WCRA approved or even just acquiring a very young pup and claiming it was from a litter of approved dogs! Are their DNA tests???

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Nothing at all ......Though non peds do look very different to peddie racers ........Most lines have common characteristics (just look at Savvy, Tink, Inca, Supe and Doogan ) ..........If different bloods were to be introduced a lot of people would pick up on the fact that some/all of the puppies didn't look right, then you have the whole "colour" aspect :blink: .........There are some people who think some lines may be suss, but this is normally because their dog can't beat said dog .......If there were non peds being introduced they'd be slaughtering the very fast open racers ........

At the end of the day though the non ped is the original Whippet, we are just snobby enough to think that we have "refined" them and "standardize"them into these dogs we see today .......but in all honesty we have lowered their flexibility, speed, health and diversity .....but this is just my personal opinion :- "

 

[~elizabeth~]

Though the Whippet club has NO problem at all and these dogs that are entering the UK's show dogs gene pool .....and are going on to be show champions etc, ...Hmmmm makes sense doesnt it ??  :wacko:

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Well there's one person in the Whippet club who certainly has a problem all sorts of whippets she dislikes entering the gene pool, with no distinction between racing, coursing or show; French dogs, coloured dogs, dogs that beat her dogs... :- "

 

[urchin]

I'm very sorry - but this thread keeps raising questions for me ..... what is the colour issue?

Is this because a colour not generally seen in racing lines is taken as 'evidence' of foul play in the breeding department???

 

[Strike Whippets]

OMG colours .......Say for instance there was a black pup in a litter of dogs with no black/blue parents .....that would be impossible (I'm not up on colour genetics, but its something like that ) ........It would raise eyebrows

 

[urchin]

But other than that, there's no problem with any colour per say?

(do tell me if i'm blundering into a great big minefield - i'm not trying to stir I promise, I'm just interested)

 

[Strike Whippets]

There are some odd colours .....These tend to come from the non peds and have popped up in some show lines ......... Off to buy a tin hat now ......oh, actually remembered I'm not very sensitive :lol:

 

[*Lesley*]

Top pedigree racing whippet for sale.http://perso.orange.fr/levriers/bootleg.htm

Sire: 4 times national champion, 1 time world champion. Won 66 out of 88 races.

Dam: European champion + derby winner and won several races

Doing very good times on trials and is definetly faster than most of english whippets. Dog is 100% OK and never had injuiries. Because of full kennel I have to do him away.

Can be picked up in Nottingham.

Please only serious offers.

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I am more baffled by that :unsure:

 

[Rob Rixon]

Last year we were racing in France (with our two WCRA passported Bitches). There had not been a problem in the past but there was in 2006 - see my articles in WN. We also went into Belgium and saw the racing of SPRINT WHIPPETS (those too big to run with the 'normal' whippets) please see again articles in WN for details.

The problems are as I see them that if you travel in Europe you see some 'funny looking animals' reported to be pedigree. These are not only whippets but other breds I have never seen before (or heard of). Group 10 in Europe in not the same as Hounds in GB. There are also imported dogs from North Africa with all sorts of backgrounds - it is a total minefield.

It would seem that some people are only interested in how sucessful a dog can work, not what it looks like. Hence sledge pulling dogs that look more like Pointers than Huskys. Racing dogs that would eat a whippet as soon as look at it. We have dogs in the uk that fight - but I have seen racing dogs that would be happy to be match with a Pitbull. The history of pedigree racing is full of people trying to get non-pedigree dogs a WCRA passport so it is understandable why we look twice at breeding we don't recognise. There is alway non-pedigree racing in the UK if you can't get a WCRA passport!!

 

[Lurch and his tribe]

You'll have to excuse me as a lurcher owner and not a whippet owner (currently) but surely as with lurchers, whippets were originally developed to race and earn money and catch some grub to supplement the family table. Surely the point of a whippet remains this as this is what bought about its exsistence in the first place.

Spaniels are also having a similar debate at the moment as they have got smaller and more racey in apperance but if they work more effectively and still do a full days work without any side effects such as poor temprement or long term health then surely change is good.

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

The history of pedigree racing is full of people trying to get non-pedigree dogs a WCRA passport so it is understandable why we look twice at breeding we don't recognise. There is alway non-pedigree racing in the UK if you can't get a WCRA passport!!

As the WCRA is an organisation under the umberella of the whippet club & as the Whippet Club is affiliated to the Kennel Club & as the lines we are talking about are FCI (to which the KC is affiliated) recognised what exactly is the problem? As stated there have been several European "show breds" imported that go back to "Andy Thor" & some have been "funny looking" enough to pick cards up in British rings.

There is indeed non-ped racing & when the BWRA get enough peds they'll put ped handicaps on as they did at the NW bend bonanza back in February.

...........Worth thinking about folks. Especially when you meet a f*** off attitude like this.

Terry Smith

 

[Strike Whippets]

As the WCRA is an organisation under the umberella of the whippet club & as the Whippet Club is affiliated to the Kennel Club & as the lines we are talking about are FCI (to which the KC is affiliated) recognised what exactly is the problem? As stated there have been several European "show breds" imported that go back to "Andy Thor" & some have been "funny looking" enough to pick cards up in British rings.

Well said Terry ........I don't know ......really if the KC and Whippet club says its fine to show these dogs and gain show titles .......WHY on earth is it not OK to race them ???? .......So now the show lines are starting to get tainted with these lines, theres going to be a time where theres going to be no where for racers to go for new blood ........Oh well I guess its going to happen soon enough with the animal rights, so I guess we really shouldn't worry about this topic :- " o .....Hannah