Official Rapid Results Dog Behavioural Training 2020-07-27

[Finsky]

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When will people stop referring to dogs "testing" their"leaders" ? Based on seriously flawed & now debunked studies on captive wolves in man made packs.
Wolves are not dogs & dogs are not wolves" there are 1,000s of years of domestication & selective breeding between wolves & dogs.
Few if any dogs live like wild wolves, ie in family groups consisting of the parents & their direct offspring from several annual litters.
Professor Dave Mech, is a world authority on wolves & their behaviours & has admitted his theory of dominance behaviour in wolves was totally wrong & that there are no Alpha leaders in wolf or dog "packs"

I think there is a difference when we talk about human as leader of a pack and as leading a dog(s). The first is to do with the flawed theory and the other is just terminology/use of words to describe how we 'manage' our dog friends.
We as humans do tend to 'take the lead' to teach the dogs to live along side with us in a manner so that we can happily get along. And yes, that kind of 'leadership' is nothing to do with pack acting..some just use word 'leader' others 'teacher' or 'trainer' etc.
And at times dogs do 'test' us humans and our human boundaries to see if they can get on with their dog's kind of way. Of course dogs will try to do things how their brain is telling them, or is natural for them. And it would be dumbing down dogs capability for different range of behavioural traits to say they are not capable for 'testing' us. Again, 'testing' is just another word us trying to describe their behaviour in our human terms....or closest to something like it.
When my dog dives into a our log basket....knowing well that she is not supposed to go there to get some pieces of wood. But after giving her a verbal warning not go there and when she first holds back, doing as she has been told, but then after while when she start circling the basket again and then standing up against it and looking at me over her shoulder to see my reaction.. 'pushing the boundaries'...I would describe that as a 'testing' my decision for the log basket being a no go area..

 

[JoanneF]

Yes, the word leader has sadly become contaminated. If you think of true leaders (I'm not thinking politicians ...) they inspire folliwership, through earning respect - not through wielding power just because they can. The pack leadership stuff has a lot to answer for and sadly it has become the flat earth theory of dog training - no matter how flawed it is, it just won't go away.

 

[JudyN]

And one of the real dangers is that your crackpot insecure dog, or 'experimental' dog ('What happens if I try this?'), or dog who has tantrums because he can't cope, gets labelled as 'dominant' or 'alpha', which couldn't be further from the truth, and then you're advised to alpha roll him, ignore him, make him wait for his food for ages, and become 'scary'. Then one of you is likely to get damaged.

 

[CoCo2014]

Dogs have no understanding of right & wrong that is anthropomorphizing dogs. You really believe your dog thinks"I know what will upset her, I'll do .........." ?

Dogs learn in many ways- by fear & pain as in the Millan type methods, by being forced to do an action over & over again as in the compulsion method, by being rewarded for a behaviour & working out themselves what produced the reward & repeating it & understanding the cue we give to request the behaviour etc etc

The first one I have never used, the second I used back in the 1950s(yes I am that all) & since being involved in rescue & training "abused" & mistrained dogs I have used reward only, I moved on to clicker training in the 1990s.

Which is the best result getting method, has to be the reward only based methods & a bucketful of patience.

I never try to force people to use any method by ancedotal" my dog does this or learnt this by" quotes/stories. I deal only in factual results & having seen a dog permanently learn not to jump up on greeting in less than one minute hands off & off lead I do know what works using the dog's learning ability

 

[Finsky]

Dogs have no understanding of right & wrong that is anthropomorphizing dogs. You really believe your dog thinks"I know what will upset her, I'll do .........." ?

Dogs learn in many ways- by fear & pain as in the Millan type methods, by being forced to do an action over & over again as in the compulsion method, by being rewarded for a behaviour & working out themselves what produced the reward & repeating it & understanding the cue we give to request the behaviour etc etc

The first one I have never used, the second I used back in the 1950s(yes I am that all) & since being involved in rescue & training "abused" & mistrained dogs I have used reward only, I moved on to clicker training in the 1990s.

Which is the best result getting method, has to be the reward only based methods & a bucketful of patience.

I never try to force people to use any method by ancedotal" my dog does this or learnt this by" quotes/stories. I deal only in factual results & having seen a dog permanently learn not to jump up on greeting in less than one minute hands off & off lead I do know what works using the dog's learning ability

I don't see that anybody was arguing about dog's 'right and wrong way thinking'. They might not think that way exactly but dog are capable to figure it out what actions by them will create 'no so nice' reaction from their owners.
I was almost going to say that it is all down to their capability read our body language very well and very quickly, but I can recall in past several instances when I've only just came through the door and noticing that my dog was behaving very weirdly when I came in...not greeting me in the usual manner. Only to find out that they've helped themselves to something in house..like I once found a floor full of shredded toilet paper etc
When that is not actual evidence for or against of 'right and wrong thinking' from them...they are certainly capable to figure it out that what they've done won't necessary result to happy looks or a treat for them from their owners and yet they couldn't resist the temptations not to do it.
I rather over estimate our canine friends thinking capabilities than underestimate....but even then I suspect there is still lots more going on in their little heads than they get credit for.

But as I have mentioned before....dogs come in all shapes and sizes and they are all very individual creatures. I've had to 're-write' same parts of my 'dog's manual' with each one of them...none of mine I have been able treat and handle exactly the same way. But that is the joy of living with dogs...and in our case with terriers, you never know what you are getting and they are for sure to surprise you. I'm sure it is not just a terrier treat but all breeds are like that

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[JudyN]

Dogs have no understanding of right & wrong that is anthropomorphizing dogs. You really believe your dog thinks"I know what will upset her, I'll do .........." ?

Absolutely - though they may do something sneakily knowing that they wouldn't get away with it if you were watching. I call that resourceful, not naughty!

There's no such thing as a bad dog, I agree - just dogs whose nature/background means they have 'inconvenient' behaviours. I worry though... does that mean there's no such thing as a good dog?

 

[Ari_RR]

I worry though... does that mean there's no such thing as a good dog?

I am afraid there is no such thing as a good dog either. But - I think there may well be a wrong dog and a right dog!

Also - “strong pack leader” examples seem to mostly deal with forbidding. A tiny switch would change things - instead of training the dog to NOT DO something - train her to DO something different instead. A lot more fun this way