Returned puppy to breeder :(

[Clive012]

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Hi everyone sorry my first post is a long one but I am looking for your opinions on a sad situation - we bought an older puppy 22 weeks from a breeder, met mum and other dogs visited on 2 occasions all seemed lovely and the puppy was already well trained, but Within a few days of being with us she was showing a lot of anxiety was not very friendly or interested in playing with our grandchildren which surprised me. Over the next 8 weeks 95% of the time she was super but she did growl at quite a lot of people, usually men. I raised this a few times with the breeder who always had a reason, new environment, tired, startled etc and I tried to work through this as we were really enjoying having a dog again. But The last straw was her lunging at one of the children in a very threatening manner -I am sure she thought she had a reason...but there was no threat, food involved, my granddaughter simply just walked past, luckily I caught her collar But my granddaughter was terrified! Our vet assessed her and couldn’t find anything physically wrong but said he felt she had a very nervous/fearful temperament and It would be irresponsible to keep her with children in the household, and I should return her. I told the breeder what had happened and They offered to help us with some training, We are not novice dog owners but I couldn’t risk this responsibility. I am a pet dog owner not a professional trainer... We had a puppy contract and the breeder did take her back but has refused to respond to my emails or calls since. I have said we feel we should have a refund as the puppy was not as described, the vet feels she had had little or no experience of children when I was told she was fully socialised and I made it clear we had young grandchildren frequently visiting. The contract says on returning a puppy a refund will be made only if and when the puppy can be re sold and less expenses. I am just wondering what your opinion is on whether the breeder should refund us immediately as we had no choice but to return her as she was clearly not suitable to be near children, it wasn’t that we just changed our minds...and also what is the situation as they have the puppy but she is still registered in my name. We had her for 8 weeks and we are missing her dreadfully but just couldn’t risk the children being bitten..thanks for reading?

 

[Ari_RR]

In my part of the world, at least the breeders I have dealt with - breeders guarantee a certain health level of the puppy, and will take a puppy with certain health issues back with the refund.

Breeders do not guarantee that the puppy will fit the life style, but will always take their puppies back (in fact contracts usually state that the owner is to return the puppy to the breeder should they be unable to keep the dog). However, there is no refund in this case.

I think all this makes sense. The decision to take a puppy is with the owners, who know how much or little effort they will be able to put into training... and I can't imagine a puppy that just fits right in without a LOT of work, including training kids.

Very sorry it didn't work out.

 

[Clive012]

In my part of the world, at least the breeders I have dealt with - breeders guarantee a certain health level of the puppy, and will take a puppy with certain health issues back with the refund.

Breeders do not guarantee that the puppy will fit the life style, but will always take their puppies back (in fact contracts usually state that the owner is to return the puppy to the breeder should they be unable to keep the dog). However, there is no refund in this case.

I think all this makes sense. The decision to take a puppy is with the owners, who know how much or little effort they will be able to put into training... and I can't imagine a puppy that just fits right in without a LOT of work, including training kids.

Very sorry it didn't work out.

Thanks for your reply. I was more than happy to do lots of training, (started agility and was doing of socialisation and further training, plenty of exercise and stimulation and puppy was not left alone often or for long) but I don’t think a puppy that is clearly unpleasant and uncomfortable with children can be treated as a work in progress while children are at risk. Although very sad I am 100% sure I made the right decision as is the vet and the experienced behaviourist/trainer at puppy classes when I told her what had happened. but with the puppy costing a lot of money I would like it back - currently the breeder has my money and the puppy..and sooner rather than in 6 months time for example after “expenses”. I would be happy to discuss this with the breeder but they simply will not respond.

 

[JudyN]

I suspect that legally, you don't have any comeback - though I'm not an expert and you might need to contact someone experienced in dog law to confirm that. Dogs are all individuals, and no breeder can predict how they will turn out. Plus the breeder has to protect themselves against people who might say the dog had growled/lunged at a child purely because they have changed their mind, or when the dog's issues are down to the owner's handling/training. @JoanneF has previously mentioned a lawyer who specialises in dog cases, so I'm tagging her.

If you do decide that chasing the money is a lost cause (pursuing a legal claim, even if successful, could prove even more expensive), you might have more luck discussing the fact that you're still the registered owner.

I do feel for you - I would have had to return my dog if my children had been younger when we got him, and no amount of training would have changed that.

 

[JoanneF]

I don't have any further advice beyond what you have already been given but the lawyer is Trevor Cooper at www.doglaw.co.uk.

 

[Ari_RR]

Just out of curiosity- what breed was the puppy?

 

[DixD]

what breed of puppy was she? And did the breeder give any reason for her being older. Was the breeder breeding for show or work? Sometimes, if show breeders they do run puppies on, if they’re not sure that they may turn out good show quality, or not, eg., dentition. If she was of a timid nature, it’s likely the amount of stimulation she was being exposed to, at a fairly young age, was far too much for her to cope with, and she needs a less hectic start to life. The agility people I’ve known take their pups to shows so they get used to the environment but ask nothing of them, in training, until they are at least nine months old. And, where I am, most trainers wouldn’t take them on till tgat age at least. I think, for your family and the pup, you’ve made the correct decision in returning her. No idea of the legalities, but I think, in the horse world, you would be unlikely to get refunded, as the belief there is that horses can often be affected adversely by new owners, which is why hardly any go out on, say, two weeks’ trial without a very hefty deposit.

 

[Mayblossom]

Was just wondering myself what breed the puppy is, such a difficult decision to make but you have to do what’s best for you and your family.

 

[Clive012]

Hi shes an airedale but the vet didnt thing it was a breed issue - the breeder said hed wanted to keep her for breeding/showing but decided against it. We introduced the children very quietly and they never even played with her as she ddint settle with them from day 1 and just wasnt interested which is odd for a puppy I have emails to them within the first 2 weeks querying certain behaviour. (We were at the pre agility puppy classes so nothing overwhelming and it was just for some fun and mental stimulation for her) so I'd not think we influenced anything negatively it's really sad as she was perfect but for the issue with children and too much mo ey to just walk away from. Obviously they are t a very responsibe breeder if they wont even discuss the fact of what happens with he reg document and microchip etc..

 

[DixD]

Inrpteresting choice of dog. They are lovely and quite unusual nowadays. But they’re basically big terriers, with terrier characteristics. For me, personally, not a puppy I would choose to have, if I had children around, for either pup or youngsters. There’s a trainer called Turid Ruugass (sp?), who doesn’t go down well with lots of agility people, as she believes that a lot of dogs don’t get to empty their “cortisol tank”, so to speak, which means stress levels never go down in the dog. Sighthounds are quite good that way. It’s all about chasing, but, when they’re not, they are MASTERS at switching off. Being a sighthound owner, I can see where Turid is coming from!

 

[Clive012]

Thanks for all your replies I think the main thing is I returned her, if she wasnt happy in our environment even though 95% of the time she was great then it was best for her and I couldn't risk a nasty situation with the children. I'll contact the lawyers as per the info posted - thanks for that and see what they say- it's not just the payment it's the insurance situation..if she is still registered to me then I'm going to have to keep insuring her.? I don't know why the breeders wont have a sensible conversation. We chose her as our friends in France have 2 gorgeous boys who are lovely with their grandchildren if a bit bouncy..we love being outside and walking so the puppy being older and well trained we wanted to just get on and enjoy her without all the puppy stages - it sounded ideal all round and we did a lot of homework etc... this has been so upsetting the house isn't the same without her...Thanks again for all your help. I'll let you know the lawyers opinion.

 

[Ari_RR]

Yeah.. well, quite frustrating situation. I think at the end of the day returning the puppy to the breeder was the right choice under the circumstances. Perhaps it would have been possible to solve the issues, but the point of just having a nice pet vs being a full time dog trainer is valid. With my current puppy, and with the previous one too - it certainly felt at times (many times) that I am a dog trainer more than anything else (father, son, husband, professional, etc.)

I don't see a realistic and easy way of getting the money back. To be honest, I don't think there is a strong case for a refund, but the breeder may decide to refund at least a portion. I would recommend to keep trying reach out to the breeder, gently (not aggressively or in a threatening way).. But I also think that after a while this will become just a memory (the puppy and the money), and everyone will move on. It may be a significant amount, but over time it will blow over.

There may be a feeling of being taken advantage of, which can be hard to get over - I would not feel this way. If it was me - I would just let it go, email the breeder from time to time, move on.

 

[JoanneF]

insurance situation..if she is still registered to me then I'm going to have to keep insuring her.?

No, just stop paying the insurance. Contact the chip company and tell them she is back with the breeder, but the two things aren't co-dependant.

 

[merlina]

Terriers of all types can be easily activated by a moving target. Maybe your grandchild was moving that bit too fast and the chase instinct kicked in. When rehoming rescue dogs into new homes not running near the dog is probably number 3 on my list after not hitting it and not taking food off it. But it goes for all dogs. Most modern research seems to suggest that dog-bite incidents are almost always 'situational' rather than due to a particular breed say. Unless in those rare cases where they dog has been deliberately maltreated to produce an aggressive response or where there are neurological problems. (Worst dog bite my OH ever suffered was from the traditional family favourite a short legged black lab!) Occasionally I've been asked questions like 'is this dog child-proof?' and the only honest answer is 'no dog is.' You describe the puppy as growling at times. This tells you it's under stress and having trouble coping- if the stress still continues then what else can a dog do? It lunged at your grandchild. I know you won't want to hear this but maybe you should write the money off. Your grandchild wasn't injured and you can learn from the experience.

 

[Clive012]

Thanks yes I may have to let the money go that isn't great but the insurance isn't cheap either and if I stop it and she for example breaks her leg - or actually does bite a child I'm still her legal owner ...I've been really polite asking if the puppy is ok etc and have made it more about the ownership and insurance than the money it's just not great being ignored! I was advised by my vet who also breeds spaniels from time to time that if I specifically told the breeder we had a lot of involvement with children and the puppy from very early showed signs of stress around them after being told otherwise then he thought she was "not as described for purpose" so a refund would be fair, but hes a vet not a lawyer! Not to worry...as you say we will sort it, we were so enjoying having her and it seems a bit callous to start thinking about another dog but if we take the plunge again we will put the puppy work in ourselves - weve had 3 lovely family dogs that all had long happy lives so we will just have to put in the puppy work ! Thanks everyone it's good to talk it through . Maybe my next posts will be later this year asking for some training tips!!

 

[merlina]

If you're thinking of a spaniel next can I just say good luck with that!! We're three years in now and still . We've no visiting children, are vastly spaniel experienced - and he's still treating us like the paid help. AND I believe at least one of his siblings is 'the perfect dog.' Go figure.

 

[DixD]

I try to go for younger pups all the time, but it is hard work, as you say. My only older dogs have been adult rescues, in rescue through no fault of their own, and both had fantastic temperaments, a retriever and a lab whippet cross. Strangely enough, I did consider an Airedale at one time, but decided against it, as I felt I didn’t have enough terrier knowledge, and it is a large one. Hopefully, you’ll find a pup that can cope better in a child-oriented environment, and the puppy may find a home with someone who enjoys showing terriers but not looking to win Crufts. If the breeder kept her on to see how she worked out show-wise, she must have something about her.

 

[Clive012]

Thank you yes we wont get another puppy older than 8 weeks again, just a update that I sent some videos to a trainer/behaviourist (COAPE) of the puppy’s reaction to children. (Same ones sent to breeder in the first weeks saying she seemed nervous of children and was told to give her more time to settle) she has just called me back saying the behaviour was not anything we would have had any impression on in the short time she was with us and was down to lack of proper socialisation during important puppy phases before 14 weeks. She also said no one can “guarantee” dogs around children which I know, but That I’d asked all the right questions and been told she’d been fully socialised - An expert doesn’t agree that happened at all, but I will never know. She said also as a breeder/trainer if she’d seen the video she would have asked for the puppy to be returned as she was not suitable for a family and needed a professional to work with her away from any children. I suppose I kept giving the puppy the benefit of the doubt as we really loved her - we’ve had 3 lovely dogs before and our friends Airedale’s are lovely even though they haven’t had a terrier before they coped with 2!! Anyway what’s done is done...I think I just felt a bit of a failure we’ve never had a problem as dog owners before but after speaking to this lady I dont think we did anything wrong and had no choice but to let her go. No idea why the breeder is ignoring me I really hope they don’t just try and pass her on but I’ll get some advice about the insurance/legal ownership. Thanks again for all your input...I should maybe stick to a Retriever if we bother again...

 

[Clive012]

..my husband thinks we need to not let this put us off as we love having a dog..just not so keen on the first 18 months...and we should start looking again. He’s promised to help with a new puppy....I think I’ve heard that one before... unless falling asleep in the sofa cuddling a puppy is considered help...thanks again for your input

 

[Ari_RR]

Ah, yes, but the hard work during fist 18 months will set you up for many years of love and joy afterwards Good luck.