Run as weighed

[NEILPEM]

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Yes they were a majority in their group the no limit had a couple of heats and 40lb. What i meant was the scrtch dogs have the same amount of dogs running in their class as any other weight group. I might have misinterprited what you was trying to say tony but i still think the scratch get alot of stick and its not fair. Why not have a supreme run off for scratch dogs so they can gain the same status as the "smaller dogs"? As for 40lb going up a weight to no limit good luck to them as storm bird frequently does this and wins. Dont mean to fall out or upset anyone what i write is just my opinion as you all have your own opinions nobody is right or wrong debs ps i was not aiming my comments at tony alone alot of people pull big dogs down.

 

[JoJess]

i think there should be supreme run offs for all dogs???/ why is there not, good for you debs tell em how u see it nothing wrong with "Big Dogs" we should cater for all and i think the 1/4 lb allawance does that....

 

[John]

In my opinion the run as weighed with the 1/4lb weight allowance is a good idea. I know that it is dissapointing to turn up at a event to get a solo run but some opens now have weight classes of up to 20 24 28 32 or 20 25 30 35 along with the usual other classes. Although I cannot say for sure I would guess that the larger weight classes were brought in to try and avoid solo runs. The bigger events with 2lb weight classes are normally well enough attended to avoid solo runs. I know the point was made that some people would go up a class to get a race against another dog but that is not the problem that comes when the opposite happens. Also run as weighed still gives people the option if they wish to put weight on or off their dog if their dog prefers a side or to change weight classes if they want.

 

[ritchie]

WELL SAID STEVE PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO RACE 31 LB / 32LB IN SCRATCH RACING JUST TO TRY TO GAIN POINTS BECAUSE IN YARD PER POUND THEIR DOGS CANT CATCH THE SMALLER DOGS IN THE RUN OFF BUT LIKE YOU SAID AT THE AGM PEOPLE WERE MOANING THAT THEY DIDNT WANT TO RUN A 16LB WITH A 32LB BUT PEOPLE WILL RUN 30+ WITH SCRATCH DOGS . I THINK IT SHOULD BE RUN AS WEIGHED AND AS FOR PEOPLE SAYING THAT THE SMALLER DOG IS SLOWER THATS A LOAD OF S*+T JUST LOOK AT THE TIMES AT THE BWRA CHAMPS AND THE 36LB / 40LB WERE QUICKER THAN THE NO LIMITS IN FACT AT THE CHAMPS A 30 LB WAS QUICKER THAN MOST OF THE SCRATCH DOGS

 

[ritchie]

FOR THE PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO RUN IN ANY CLASS IVE GOT A 37 LBER CAN I GO IN THE 25LB CLASS? MMMMMMMMM DONT THINK SO..

 

[mick]

I was recently told, that it was a disadvantge for a dog to run in the 40lbs scr. then run in it's (as weighed) class of 35lbs.the dog in question, didn't stand a 'snowballs' chance against R.CH Simpson, so why did he do it I ask myself.some 35 races and at least 2 hrs rest, it ran in it's class and duly won. Disadvantage ? it depends on the dog. My own dog is always better 2nd time up. As for running in the'wrong' classes, again ask why. Could it be to gain valuable points against lesser opposition, could it be to dodge certain dogs they know will beat them. could it be they can't catch the smaller dogs in the yds/lbs.If you can tell me of a valid reason why people do this, I would love to hear from you. I voted yes but you may have already worked that one out.

 

[mutley]

oooooooooo i think the system we have works well, but can understand points on both sides. richies right about some 30 pounders been as fast if not faster than no limit and 40 ,letts stick to our classes so all have a chance, but i will say this if i had a 30 pounder good enough for 36 i would be tempted to go for 36 sup unless it was half yard pound in handicap :0

 

[NEILPEM]

run em as weighed or buy a bigger or smaller dog whichever, so easy,

 

[Fleesh]

It seems to me that dogs shoud run as weighed except in one condition. That being that if and only if a weight class consists of a solo run then the owner may have the choice of whether to move up to the next weight group or not. If that dog wins the next weight group up then nobody in that class in my opinion can camplain as they have the advantage on the lighter dog by starting off with an extra yard on it (technically speaking). However a weight class has more than one dog in then the dogs should run as weighed.

........................................ ???

 

[michelle]

John,

I agree that the larger weight classes are probably being brought in to avoid the solo runs that occur when smaller weight classes (2lb increments) are used. The use of weight classes is/was popular because all-in racing at yard per pound meant that the heavyweights ( and middleweights come to that) had no realistic chance of winning and would usually end up being knocked out at the first round. As a result heavyweights tend to stay away from all-in racing. - look at the entries for The Jack Cadman open where few heavyweights enter. I won`t run a dog at the top of a handicap (that means heavyweight) since I have no chance of winning and many heavyweight owners do the same. Bigger weight groups have a similar effect.

As you say run as weigh doesn`t stop people putting weight on a dog to move it up a class.

Ritchie,

There is little point in moving a 31/32lb dog into the scratch just to get top ten points since scratch points and the main top ten points are different. Scratch points can`t be used in the main top ten.

I agree that people move out of the handicap because the heavyweights have no chance of catching the lighter dogs at yard per pound but that is because yard per pound is unfair not because the heavyweights are too slow. It would not make sense to move a 32lb dog into the scratch to run against bigger faster dogs because it is too slow to run in a fair handicap.

When I mentioned that the smaller dog was slower it was obviously with reference to he comparison of 16lb and 32lb dogs only - I quote "A 16lb is much slower than a 32lb and in handicap gets a start" - .I think most people would accept that a 16lb dog is slower than a 32lb dog, wouldn`t you? No one has mentioned the smaller scratch dogs being slower here on this thread.

No one has mentioned that a dog should be allowed to run in any weight class - the whole point of this thread is that owners will sometimes choose to run in a weight class that has a higher MAXIMIUM weight limit than the weight class they are entitled to run at - eg. a 39lb dog running No Limit instead of 40lb scratch.

If you could get your 37lb dog to 35lb you will be able, assuming it wins its heats, to run against 25lb dogs in NWRF yard per pound handicaps. Giving an 11 yard start to 24lb Shooting Star I wouldn`t fancy your chances much. If you really want to run against handicap dogs perhaps you could issue a challenge to run against any handicap dog, yard per pound, £50 per dog. I suspect you wouldn`t be short of offers.

As far as the Scratch racing goes it is already run as weigh with the NWRF but you do get to choose which scratch class you run at present with the BWRA and most clubs with a scratch fraternity ( assuming your dog is UNDER the limit for the race you wish to enter). Choice is better because it provides more competition. A good big dog will always beat a good little dog in whippet scratch racing. Only the poorer heavyweights have anything to fear from lighter dogs running in the same class.

Tony

 

[NEILPEM]

didnt wally stag beat the no limits once,and how big was he ??? and off levels

 

[ritchie]

I AGREE IT WOULD SUIT ALOT OF PEOPLE IF THE RUN OFFS WERE AT 1/2 YD PER POUND IN YD /PER LB RACING BUT MY POINT IS IF YOUR DOG WEIGHS 30LB THEN YOU SHOULD RUN AT 30LB BUT NOW PEOPLE ARE RUNNING WITH 36LB DOGS . YOU MENTIONED THAT I COULD TAKE 2 LB OFF MY DOG AND RUN AT 35LB AND IF I WANTED TO I WOULD BUT THE POINT IS AS IT IS NOW (30LBER RUNNING AS 36LB)THEN WHY NOT A 40LBER RUNNING AS A 25LBER FOR EXAMPLE . IT DOESNT WORK DOES IT.AS FOR THE CHALLENGE YOU MENTIONED YOUR RIGHT AT YD PER LB I WOULDNT FANCY MY CHANCES BUT THEN WHO WOULD . BUT WHAT 25LB DOG WOULD FANCY ITS CHANCES OFF SCRATCH??? IVE GOT NO PROBLEM IF A DOG IS USUALLY 32LB AND THE OWNER DECIDES TO PUT WEIGHT ON THE DOG TO GO UP INTO THE 36LB CLASS COS IT WOULD THEN BE OVER 32LB AND THERFORE BE CLASSED AS A 36LB SCR DOG. JUST A THOUGHT I WONDER IF THE 30LBERS WILL RUN WITH THE SCR DOGS ON THE BENDS???

 

[michelle]

Ritchie

I think any dog should be able to run in whatever class it wants as long as it is UNDER the MAXIMUIM weight limit for that class - I believe that the heavier dogs in that class should be able to beat the lighter ones and if they ( the heavier dogs)can`t then they are simply not good enough . Most owners arn`t stupid and won`t put a 25lb dog in the 40lb because they know it will lose, so this won`t happen. Putting a 40lb dog in the 25lb can`t happen because it is against the rules and the ethos of match racing (in this case matched weights)

If you feel that dogs should only race against equal weight animals then thats fair enough - your entitled to your opinion and its just as valid as anyone elses, but I would be interested to know why you, and other racers think this way. A lot of the arguements put forward for preventing lighter dogs running in heavier classes seem to me to be weak at best and spurious at worst.

Using your example of a 30lb dog; in the handicp we had a "30lb" dog , -he needed to be 30lb to be competitive and hence weighed in at 30lb 4oz which he weighed for about 3hrs in that week , ie the 3hrs at the race meet. 30lb was as low as he would go without dropping performance. The rest of the week when racing he would be 31lb+ and resting 33lb without being over weight. He could race scratch without being over weight.( you mention you could take 2lb off your dog if you wanted - its the same thing here).

Why run a 30lb in the 36lb scratch on the straits? - it seems you are giving away 6lb for no yardage but if you look at the maths its not quite that simple. At yard per pound a 30lb gives 6 yards to a dog 6lb lighter (24lb) but a fair handicap is really half yard per pound (or less) so he knows he has a 3 yard deficit. In the 36lb scratch against a 36lb dog it would appear that the 36lb dog has a 3yard advantage due to its 6lb weight advantage (at half yard per pound ). However some of the dogs in the 36lb will be less than 36lb (ie 35lb,34lb,33lb) so he is giving less away to thes dogs (35lb=2 1/2yd, 34lb=2 yd , 33lb=1 1/2yd, using the previous example), also the dog is not running at bare minimium weight which helps, and the true handicap based on time differentials between 30lb and 36lb is less than half yard per pound ( at one foot per pound the figures are 36lb=2yd, 35lb=5ft, 34lb=4ft, 33lb=1yd). All of which means that a 30lb dog gives less away to a 36lb than to 24 lb dog. It therefore makes more sense to run any 30lb dog in the 36lb scratch rather than the yard per pound handicap.

On the bends the yard per pound handicap agrees with the time differentials due to the increased length of the race so the handicap is fair. Hence it makes sense to run in the handicap rather than race of scratch and give away a weight advantage to the heavier scratch dogs.

 

[Paws123]

A 16lb is much slower than a 32lb  and in handicap gets a start - usually more of a start than would produce an even finish, hence the 16lb dog has finished the race and stopped while the 32lb dog is arriving , flat out , at the lure, - a recipe for an accident. You cant compare this with running lighter dogs in scratch races since in scratch races they all start level and all dogs are running at roughly the same speed and so all arrive at the lure together - there is no speed differential to cause the problem of one dog running into a stationary dog at the lure. The comparison is not really valid as its just not the same thing.

I am not blowing my own trumpet here, but i have ran Blue Goblin at 1/2 yard opens in finals, she was okay lucky enough she does not go into the lure but comes straight to me..

I also have ran scr dogs on and off all my life and must say that the injure level are at the same risk as running light weight dogs off in finals with heaver weight dogs, heaver weight dogs going into a lure at full speed hitting each other is just as bad as light weight been hit of a heaver weight, in my years of racing i have seen some horrid accidents and bad injuries

its a risk we all take when running our dogs at any level.

As far as running as weighted i think its up to the owners... i have lifted dogs up a class before in the past just to win a weight class, because i knew the dogs in the class below were to good for my dog ..who would not if they knew there dogs were in with a chance ...come on how much money do we spend traveling about to achieve the best from our dogs..

 

[Vicky]

I wonder how much of the "Run as weighed is far much fairer" theory is just down to sour grapes and the owners have actually been beaten or would be beaten by X dog going up a class in scratch races!

 

[JoJess]

ok u lot how do u get some of the last statement on to here, not all of us are computer literate u know lol... well i am all for "Run as Weighed" and i have never gone up nor down a weight group to miss a dog, we have gone down a group just to get our dog off the right side as she was a bad right hand runner,ie ran 21lb for one group and 22lb for the other, so i can assure you vicky there was no sour grapes as you put it on our part and if you get a solo good luck i say cos we never seem to get em ??? ooooooooooooooo sorry vicky just read the last bit about you are on about scratch racing :b

 

[Vicky]

Pat, if i'm right most of your dogs are lightweights (there's prob not been a solo in the 21lb bitch class at any champs since championships were put in place) your 31lber who i'm sure if she is back on the track this year after injury will pick up class wins through solo's (unless you run IRG handicap!)

Show Three (30/31lb) about a year ago got a title for a solo which peter i'm guessing was probably not too happy about! If it were 16/17lb dog class you could expect it!!

 

[ritchie]

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION BUT IF YOUR DOG CANT WIN A RACE AT SAY 25LB. 30LB ,THEN THE OWNERS SHOULD TRY TO ALTER THEIR DOGS WEIGHT IF THEY CAN TO ENTER A CLASS ABOVE / BELOW INSTEAD OF JUST TURNING UP AT AN EVENT LOOKING WHATS THERE AND THEN DECIDING . AS FOR PEOPLE GETTING SOLO`S IF THAT PERSON DOESNT WANT A SOLO THEN I THINK IT ONLY FAIR TO ASK THE RACES IN THE NEXT CLASS UP IF THEY DONT MIND RUNNING WITH THE DOG IN QUESTION. THEN THE RACERS IN THE NEXT CLASS UP CANT COMPLAIN.

 

[ritchie]

WHY HAVE WEIGHT CLASSES IF PEOPLE ARE`NT GOING TO USE THEM?

 

[NEILPEM]

vicky, as a scratch racer we have no sour grapes thank you! we will run our dogs with any dogs who would like to run off scratch and wonderwall has thankfully shown off alot of competition, take the supreme run off naz ran with minster rocket which is a very good dog (40lb) and won. deb