Showing Champions

[kris]

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heres a topic. i dont know if its been aired before but i wondered what your views on this are.in one breed i was in a well known breed record holder was 'campaigned fearlessly' as the saying goes, and stopped a lot of dogs becoming champions.now some will say this is cos they werent as good as him and other will say he should be retired after 3 ccs as he cant become anything other than a champion so hes stopping other dogs from getting made up and a lot of male open winners would not bother going to the show as theyd think, whats the point, hes gonna win it so why bother.what are your views on 'pot hunting' as i think its called?

 

[JAX]

Well, we`v the breed record holder of Nutshell of Nevedith with ( I think ) 47 CCs and the dog Kabaray Single malt at Dumbriton with multipule cc`s.

Of cousre they stopped other dogs from being made up but Champions are there to be beaten and often a dog gets `on a roll ` and its hard to beat , At the moment Open bitch is quite a small class cos we have both the lovely Bardo and the lovely Dolly doing well , and quite rightly too , but as you say , you can only be one champion , unlike australia wher e they have Grand champion title to aim for

Its shame we arnt more t like the continent where once a champ , you only compete in Champ classes and although you can get BO B , other dogs can get the CC or CAICB as it is there > personnaly dont think it devalues the CC as in Whippets we have the quality and the competetion to stop poor champions .

If you have a young whippet that gets `made up `quickly it seems a shame to take it out of the ring , there by denying other exhibitors and judges the chance of seeing it .

I think Id only call it `pot hunting` if they were to go to OPEN shows on a regular basis , But boy , let me tell you , its great when you beat one at an Open show

 

[kris]

hurray!at last a reply.i thought either noones interested or theyre too scared to voice their opinions! :- " thanks jax! :thumbsup: i agree with you about it being a shame theres nothing left to aim for once your dog is made up,in cats i think they have grand champions.maybe we should have something like this to aim for so that after a dog had achieved its title then the owners would still have something to achieve?would a champions only class be better?also although its maybe a good thing in a large breed to keep showing a dog after its gained its title what about small breeds?if the same dog was on a roll as its called and was winning week after week month after month would other breeders get disheartened and stop showing?or would it be an incentive to breed something better?come on folks give your opinions.were all entitled to them!

 

[bappit]

Suppose some folk like to chase the breed record.

Personally I think that does deny other dogs, a good friend of mine collected quite a few Reserves when her dog was being campaigned against a multiple CC winner (not whippet I must add - but a hound breed), I was a great shame I felt, as he was a great specimin and my friend became quite disheartened, the CC winner was also a great specimin but both dogs were not without small "faults". There was always a great deal of "on the day" type crits. IMHO judges do not like to go against the opinion of other "respected" judges. Cest la vie!

 

[Seraphina]

Well, no system is perfect. We do have the title of Grand Champion here in OZ. In any case champions can still aim for In Group and In Show wins. Basically, to get your dog to the grand championship he needs to be shown every weekend, and I am not prepared to do that.

Lida

 

[aslan]

Aside from the fact that we do have Grand Champion here to aim for...

I would not like to have to retire my winning dog just because he was winning! but I would retire him when I thought he could no longer cut it with the young stuff.

I think if you've got a UK Ch you've got every right to keep competing. The young dogs coming through must be good enough to beat the champions to become a champion IMO.

However, having said that it is not taking into account the politics of the game. :- "

When a dog continues to win because of the face at the other end of the lead, or on reputation alone, and the other dogs are not given due consideration then yes it does get disheartening for the other competitors. Judges should be tough enough to bring a new winner to the fore.

 

[Vicky]

Obviously i'm not a showie but in racing you can gain as many Rch / Nch titles as you want and you don't go up a step. Wouldn't like to think that just because a dog got all the titles available it was then retired so that others had a chance (and then stopping other competitors / spectator's having the chance to see the dog in action), if you can't beat it then the dog's not good enough surely and i'd take pride in coming 2nd to that dog, imo it's better to come 2nd to a good dog than win and it not be there.

 

[Karen]

Like Jax says it would be a very good idea to have a Champions class and the winner of that class to go on and challenge for Best of Breed, but

People are not all that keen on having thier Champions beaten by other champions so this class would still be small, however the Open classes would be much larger.

I think when a dog gets a few CCs under its belt and is known to be coming to most of the shows people just dont bother to enter the Open class, then the judge finds it hard to give the ticket to anyone else so Ch Ohgod not himagain gets another ticket.

People in all breeds in the UK moan about this situation but the KC dont like being told anything especially if that something is being done by foreigners in a better way (w00t) so change will be a long time coming.

 

[janfiers]

:- " You've hit the nail on the head there, Karen, about the KC not wanting to change things to the continental way, cos it gets done better!

 

[dawn]

Like Jax says it would be a very good idea to have a Champions class and the winner of that class to go on and challenge for Best of Breed, but
People are not all that keen on having thier Champions beaten by other champions so this class would still be small,  however the Open classes would be much larger.

I think when a dog gets a few CCs under its belt and is known to be coming to most of the shows people just dont bother to enter the Open class, then the judge finds it hard to give the ticket to anyone else so Ch Ohgod not himagain gets another ticket.

People in all breeds in the UK moan about this situation but the KC dont like being told anything especially if that something is being done by foreigners in a better way  (w00t) so change will be a long time coming.

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I must disagree with you (and Jax & Jan) with this - so what is new you may ask?

Maybe a seperate class for Champions but NOT to restrict the CC.

What would you do in a totally hypothetical situation when the ONLY decent dogs are in the Champions class yet you have to award a certificate that 'in your opinion' the dog is woirthy of the title Champion?

It would undoubtedly downgrade the value of a CC - mind we would be like many other countries and have cheap champions. What is the value of this?

ALL dogs are there to be beaten and the fact the Bardo / Dolly / Sean / another lady etc... are on a roll does not mean they are the best and cannot be beaten. Unfortunately IMO many judges will award the CC because X number of CC's have been awarded to the dog before and not because it is the best there - it is the easy option - like BIS at CRUFTS whatever is placed pleases loads of folk and has already been shortlisted twice

And from what I've read the Foreigners don't do it better they do it differently (and IMNSHO not so well )

 

[jools]

Hi Kris,

Following on from your showing champions bit, how do other members feel about showing champions at open shops? It seems to be happening more and more, I can understand itfthe person showing only has the one dog, but when they have several and attend many of the champ shows, it is a bit of a downer when you are out with a youngster (in my opinion.)

Am I just being a miserable, cynical old so and so?

 

[kris]

no i know what you mean.but think what a kick youd get if you beat them! :- " another thing im thinking of is the INFLUENCE for better or worse when a kennel or a dog is winning everythin.ive seen it happen in a numerically small breed i was in years ago.in my opinion it influenced the breed for the worse as size started to become quite a problem.but that was what was winning so folk bred to that type and used that kennels dogs at stud.it took quite some time for the breed to recover and standard sized dogs to get placed again.(i kept my head down and kept breeding to the standard as i figured thats what i wanted to breed and eventually thats what the judges would recognise,and start to place again)the persons concerned left the breed and eventually they started to come down in size again.me personally i think any dog is there to be beaten.if i didnt have something good enough to beat it then id try to breed something better.the problem arises when it isnt the best dog,but the one that the (usually allrounder) judge recognises to gives the ticket to 'play safe' we all know it happens,and we all usually know those judges and who to avoid showing under as they are just going to follow what everyone else has done.i think it takes guts to 'knock' a big winner but not for the sake of it,but because on the day there was a better dog there that showed better and deserved to break through :thumbsup:

 

[Karen]

Re, CCs being given to inferior dogs, the judge has the option of witholding any prize at the show if they feel the dogs are not worthy. I would have no trouble doing this. You still challenge for BOB.

 

[dessie]

Obviously i'm not a showie but in racing you can gain as many Rch / Nch titles as you want and you don't go up a step.  Wouldn't like to think that just because a dog got all the titles available it was then retired so that others had a chance (and then stopping other competitors / spectator's having the chance to see the dog in action), if you can't beat it then the dog's not good enough surely and i'd take pride in coming 2nd to that dog, imo it's better to come 2nd to a good dog than win and it not be there.

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Unfortunately you cannot compare the two disciplines because they are poles apart! I would agree that there is no reason to retire a Ch racing dog just because it is a Ch, because it is purely down to the ability of the dog and not down to the whim of a judge's opinion.

I agree with Karen & Jax, I would like to see a Champions class as on the Continent with the winner not able to compete for the CC but can challenge for BOB. There are lots of lovely dogs and bitches in the showring that are probably never going to be Champions, although they may deserve it, because a lot of judges are too scared of doing something different or having the courage of their convictions.

 

[dessie]

Hi Kris,Following on from your showing champions bit, how do other members feel about showing champions at open shops? It seems to be happening more and more, I can understand itfthe person showing only has the one dog, but when they have several and attend many of the champ shows, it is a bit of a downer when you are out with a youngster (in my opinion.)

Am I just being a miserable, cynical old so and so?

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I think it depends why you want to take a Ch to an Open Show. Open shows are exactly what they say they are, open to all, and a lot of judges you get at open shows aren't even in the breed so probably wouldn't know if the dog was a Ch or not. I wouldn't want to drag my Ch round every show on a pothunting spree but I did enter him at one Open show as a pre-Crufts outing because he had been out of the ring for well over a year with a bad back. The breed judge was an all-rounder and in the previous classes to Open did not put up anything that was remotely like my Ch. However, I did win my class and BOB and the judge remarked to me straight after judging (so presumably still not knowing he was a Ch) that my boy was not really his type but couldn't be denied on quality and movement. Ro was there to be beaten, if the judge so wished to put up something else, so I certainly don't feel I was denying someone else a BOB!! In fact, I seem to remember I was more miffed that Rupert was well and truly trounced in his class!!!!

 

[jools]

no i know what you mean.but think what a kick youd get if you beat them! :- " another thing im thinking of is the INFLUENCE for better or worse when a kennel or a dog is winning everythin.ive seen it happen in a numerically small breed i was in years ago.in my opinion it influenced the breed for the worse as size started to become quite a problem.but that was what was winning so folk bred to that type and used that kennels dogs at stud.it took quite some time for the breed to recover and standard sized dogs to get placed again.(i kept my head down and kept breeding to the standard as i figured thats what i wanted to breed and eventually thats what the judges would recognise,and start to place again)the persons concerned left the breed and eventually they started to come down in size again.me personally i think any dog is there to be beaten.if i didnt have something good enough to beat it then id try to breed something better.the problem arises when it isnt the best dog,but the one that the (usually allrounder) judge recognises to gives the ticket to 'play safe' we all know it happens,and we all usually know those judges and who to avoid showing under as they are just going to follow what everyone else has done.i think it takes guts to 'knock' a big winner but not for the sake of it,but because on the day there was a better dog there that showed better and deserved to break through :thumbsup:

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[jools]

Mmm, fully agree with your point if you only have one or two dogs, the question was more about a larger kennel, with several dogs all shown at various times, but the Champion keeps coming out. One of my friends had a pharoah hound who has several tickets. Normally she only does Ch. shows and breed shows, but occassionally she puts in the odd open show when she feels she needs to keep her dog in the "swing of things" I can fully understand the need to do them.

Yep, I must just be getting old - never mind, as long as I can keep the whippets fit and well, I'll make do! :teehee:

 

[Seraphina]

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There are lots of lovely dogs and bitches in the showring that are probably never going to be Champions, although they may deserve it, because a lot of judges are too scared of doing something different or having the courage of their convictions.

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Some of them are better than the Champions. Therefore when I am looking for a sire of my next litter i look at the dog, not his titles and achievements.

Lida

 

[Cartman]

I think it is up to each exhibitor what they do. At first I was not going to say anything. However lets look at why they are still in the ring.

a. the dog is still young & not yet reached a point where nature has taken a turn & old age has not become them.

b. It is a champion & been very lucky to of done so. In this case the ownwers are blinded by "star quallity".

c. (in Oz. ) It is a champion & needs to do it another 9 times for Grand Champion. These owners / breeders, tend to have less litters than most as they can not afford to have the up & comming out of the ring.

d. There is a tin plate somewhere.Another year of being the "bitch" of the year. This is where the point score can ruin a breed. Dogs being shown at every event "anywhere". (would love to have what they spend on petrol)

e.People show to win & profit. These tend to keep a recent throphy on hand when selling very expesive puppies to unaware show homes. Their home breed Champion doing the winning up one end of the line. While the over priced pups are on the other.

f. Lets not forget the honest exhibitor They turn up one week end a month. Show till the dog is about 6 years old & have some nice stock comming through.

Did I forget any?? Is there another sub heading??

I wrote this from what I have seen & what has happened to me over the last 35 years. Also I am not pionting the finger at anyone, but if you feel guilty then so be it. Also this covers all-breeds & not just whippets.

 

[Morgan]

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There are lots of lovely dogs and bitches in the showring that are probably never going to be Champions, although they may deserve it, because a lot of judges are too scared of doing something different or having the courage of their convictions.

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Some of them are better than the Champions. Therefore when I am looking for a sire of my next litter i look at the dog, not his titles and achievements.

Lida

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Of course being a champion doesn't mean being a better stud or even just a better dog.

I do quite agree on that although there is a point I'd like to discuss, I hope my bad french-English will make sense to you : everybody started just like that. Every "famous" breeder started as a beginner with more or less difficulties to reach the top places but I think it is the breeder/owner's conviction and "faith" in his dog that is very important.

You need to believe in your dog and if really you want it ... you'll get it!!!

Well that's what happened with me :b !!!

If you think that all the judges were ready to let that "black extra-terrestrial" (Spike... at that time a strong black dog) reach the top... well you are very wrong!!! It was the exact opposite... just a very few judges looked through his black coat but it happened eventually :thumbsup: