Speying

[BeeJay]

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>ok....lets say an average family with 2.2 kids decide to get a dog....if a survey was done how many of those people do you think have unneutered pets?

and if you convinced them all not to spay/castrate them how many of those average people(and remember the real world not the ideal one) would end up with unwanted puppies or escaped dogs that had been killed by a car?

I don't know and frankly I don't care

I'm not interested in convincing anyone to neuter or not neuter their dog. So I am not going to tell someone that they have to do it or the world will be filled with unwanted dogs or that if they don't do it their animal will become diseased. (Arguements that simply don't hold water IMO so that I will say). I am also not going to tell someone that they shouldn't neuter their dog - I haven't on here btw.

I believe in personal choice. I believe in Dessie's personal choice not to sell her bitches to people who have already decided to surgically alter them. I believe in Dawn's right to say that she is even more firmly a believer that a surgical operation should only be inflicted on a sick animal.

I believe in your right to say that you believe that pet dogs should be neutered.

I believe in people being able to make informed choices. In not being bullied into having their dogs neutured because some vet or government official thinks that it should be done. You see I don't look down on people generally I don't believe that I know better than anyone else. I don't belittle people.

>because the real world to me is the world where we judge the norm by the majority...it may not be right but that is not my point

Oh dear that IMO is very sad and not at all informed. I'm surprised and sorry that you would hold that viewpoint.

 

[Seraphina]

IMO majority of the unwanted dogs do not come from acidental matings but from puppy farms, and you can desex every dog in the community, as long as these establishments exist we will have heaps of dumped animals, bought on spur of the moment without much thought.

I am trying to campaign for intoduction of legislation that the dogs breeder (be it registered breeder or puppy farmer) would have to be listed permanently with the microchip registry so it could be established where the dumped dogs originated from. i have emailed our KC, the microchip registry etc, and so far the silence is deafening.

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

I am not going to tell you anything of the sort whitecross.  I am not going to agree with you because you apologised.  I know that when I buy a dog regardless of my experience as a dog trainer I will listen to what that breeder has to say.  And that is the case with the other people out there who buy a dog. 
The point is we live in a world where animals cannot speak for themsevles.  And we as owners AND breeders must do the speaking for them.  However, if someone came to me tomorrow and said to me "you are getting fixed becuase I dont want you having children" I would politely tell them to go take a run and jump.  I have a responsibility not to get pregnant, dogs do not have that luxury, but they also dont have the luxury of saying no to a needless operation.

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i didnt apologise!...and i have no intention of apologising either ...until.... like i said you tell me that most peoples dogs are not neutered (and you cant because they are!)

 

[Julie D]

standard approach for hysterectomy operations in humans is an incision across the abdomen so that the scar can be hidden by trousers?
In bitches the incision is made in the midline (down the centre of the abdomen, running parallel to the spine).  This means that rather than incising the actual muscle, the vet separates the muscles by opening the linea alba, a strip of fibrous connective tissue with a poor nerve and blood supply.  This takes longer to heal than an incision into the actual muscles but is much less painful while healing.  Once the initial bruising has subsided (1-2 days) the dog is usually behaving normally, eating well and keen to interact with others.  The actual muscles remain undamaged, along with their associated nerve fibres.

I'm not saying that the operation is more or less painful for dogs cf humans, I am just saying that I don't think they can be compared.  But I also have a theory that vets perform the op much more frequently than human surgeons do, so it might well be quicker and involve less tissue damage and swelling for dogs!

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Thanks for that info. I will ask my gynaecologist to consider this incision if I ever need to be spayed :thumbsup:

How many of these ops per week does the average vet perform ? I'll find out from my colleagues how many hysterectomies the ave. gyn. surgeon performs to compare, just for my own interest

I will also ask the experts whether they perform a lower pelvic transverse incision just so that trousers can hide the scar !

Once a female tummy is no longer like a models or is flabby and stretch-marked from doing the lovely job it was created for we should keep it covered when out in public and not display it for the poor public to be subjected to :- "

but I'm sure any mature woman would not want to flash her tum and 'choice of vertical scar' with fashionable hipster pants, also it's not the end of the world if you can't wear a bikini, there are some nice flattering swimsuits out there. So if there's no medical reason for a more painful transverse cut, I'll definately be opting for the linea alba cut,

only downer is - I might be doing myself out of a well earned 3-4 month break from work

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

I am not going to tell you anything of the sort whitecross.  I am not going to agree with you because you apologised.  I know that when I buy a dog regardless of my experience as a dog trainer I will listen to what that breeder has to say.  And that is the case with the other people out there who buy a dog. 
The point is we live in a world where animals cannot speak for themsevles.  And we as owners AND breeders must do the speaking for them.  However, if someone came to me tomorrow and said to me "you are getting fixed becuase I dont want you having children" I would politely tell them to go take a run and jump.  I have a responsibility not to get pregnant, dogs do not have that luxury, but they also dont have the luxury of saying no to a needless operation.

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i didnt apologise!...and i have no intention of apologising either ...until.... like i said you tell me that most peoples dogs are not neutered (and you cant because they are!)

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Actually I can because none of my dogs are neutered. My friends dogs are not neutered. Neither are my neighbours dogs and we make up a lare majority of dog owners. And if you re read your post

"ok i will apoligise about saying you do not live in the real world if you tell me that the majority of average dog owners in the world do not spay their animals? because the real world to me is the world where we judge the norm by the majority...it may not be right but that is not my point"

I see the words "I apologise" in there and also "if you tell me" so...yeah.

You will find that the kennel club will not allow someone to enter a dog into a show that has been neutered and if my numbers are correct over ten thousand dogs enter crufts each year. Also in the states the AKC state that you cannot show a dog that has been neutered...and vets there do not recommend neutering unless for a medical reason. Considering there are a lot more dogs there than here...the majority of people in the world do not neuter their dogs.

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

>ok....lets say an average family with 2.2 kids decide to get a dog....if a survey was done how many of those people do you think have unneutered pets?and if you convinced them all not to spay/castrate them how many of those average people(and remember the real world not the ideal one) would end up with unwanted puppies or escaped dogs that had been killed by a car?

I don't know and frankly I don't care

I'm not interested in convincing anyone to neuter or not neuter their dog.  So I am not going to tell someone that they have to do it or the world will be filled with unwanted dogs or that if they don't do it their animal will become diseased.  (Arguements that simply don't hold water IMO so that I will say).  I am also not going to tell someone that they shouldn't neuter their dog - I haven't on here btw.

I believe in personal choice.  I believe in Dessie's personal choice not to sell her bitches to people who have already decided to surgically alter them.  I believe in Dawn's right to say that she is even more firmly a believer that a surgical operation should only be inflicted on a sick animal.

I believe in your right to say that you believe that pet dogs should be neutered. 

I believe in people being able to make informed choices.  In not being bullied into having their dogs neutured because some vet or government official thinks that it should be done.  You see I don't look down on people generally I don't believe that I know better than anyone else.  I don't belittle people.

>because the real world to me is the world where we judge the norm by the majority...it may not be right but that is not my point

Oh dear that IMO is very sad and not at all informed.  I'm surprised and sorry that you would hold that viewpoint.

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you dont know and you dont care!....hmmm nice!

yes you are correct to say that it wasnt you that made that particular comment but the 3 of you (and you know who i mean) all sound like the same and agree with each other whatever the topic so its not surprising im confused with all 3 of you arguing against me

i agree everyone should have their opinion so why did you all start a bombardment of comments at me at the beginning of this thread when i dared to disagree with you

i think the majority of people do not agree with you and that is true because as i have said a million times MOST AVERAGE PET OWNERS SPAY THEIR ANIMALS!

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

I am not going to tell you anything of the sort whitecross.  I am not going to agree with you because you apologised.  I know that when I buy a dog regardless of my experience as a dog trainer I will listen to what that breeder has to say.  And that is the case with the other people out there who buy a dog. 
The point is we live in a world where animals cannot speak for themsevles.  And we as owners AND breeders must do the speaking for them.  However, if someone came to me tomorrow and said to me "you are getting fixed becuase I dont want you having children" I would politely tell them to go take a run and jump.  I have a responsibility not to get pregnant, dogs do not have that luxury, but they also dont have the luxury of saying no to a needless operation.

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i didnt apologise!...and i have no intention of apologising either ...until.... like i said you tell me that most peoples dogs are not neutered (and you cant because they are!)

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Actually I can because none of my dogs are neutered. My friends dogs are not neutered. Neither are my neighbours dogs and we make up a lare majority of dog owners. And if you re read your post

"ok i will apoligise about saying you do not live in the real world if you tell me that the majority of average dog owners in the world do not spay their animals? because the real world to me is the world where we judge the norm by the majority...it may not be right but that is not my point"

I see the words "I apologise" in there and also "if you tell me" so...yeah.

You will find that the kennel club will not allow someone to enter a dog into a show that has been neutered and if my numbers are correct over ten thousand dogs enter crufts each year. Also in the states the AKC state that you cannot show a dog that has been neutered...and vets there do not recommend neutering unless for a medical reason. Considering there are a lot more dogs there than here...the majority of people in the world do not neuter their dogs.

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ok im sorry i didnt realise our survey on the majority of the world was based on you and your friend ....oh not forgetting your neighbours!

are you sure you cannot show a neutered pet?! i thought you could with permission???

 

[nina]

i thought you could with permission???

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That in fact is absolutely correct as a dog of mine sold to a pet home was shown for a bit of fun after having been castrated.

The owners simply wrote to the K.C applied for permisission & when he was shown the word (Neut) appeared next to his name.

Have to add he still won his class too!!!

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

Ok you know what...maybe you should stop with the attitude becuase it is really getting annoying. I was merely stating that the people I know do not Neuter their pets, but you want to get all sarcastic about it. You will find that the majority of people who show their dogs do not get them neutered, why...because they will breed them to keep the family lines going.

I am not going to admit to something that I know is not true. And if you actually read my post I also pointed out that pretty much all dog owners in the USA do not get their dogs Neutered...so there is your world majority. Maybe you seriously consider before replying next time becuase I have been trying to be patient and not give attitude like you have been doing but I am very close to it now.

This thread started off as a simple debate but you have done an amazing job at turning it into a full blown argument with your attitude.

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

i thought you could with permission???

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That in fact is absolutely correct as a dog of mine sold to a pet home was shown for a bit of fun after having been castrated.

The owners simply wrote to the K.C applied for permisission & when he was shown the word (Neut) appeared next to his name.

Have to add he still won his class too!!!

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thanks for that info nina...most helpful :thumbsup:

 

[nina]

thanks for that info nina...most helpful :thumbsup:

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Well i judged a club show recently & the majority of dogs in the Veteran class where castrated, probably a good amount of the Veteran bitches were spayed also but obviously harder to tell.

Neutered dogs & bitches are entered at shows all the time :thumbsup: known fact

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

Ok you know what...maybe you should stop with the attitude becuase it is really getting annoying.  I was merely stating that the people I know do not Neuter their pets, but you want to get all sarcastic about it.  You will find that the majority of people who show their dogs do not get them neutered, why...because they will breed them to keep the family lines going.
I am not going to admit to something that I know is not true.  And if you actually read my post I also pointed out that pretty much all dog owners in the USA do not get their dogs Neutered...so there is your world majority.  Maybe you seriously consider before replying next time becuase I have been trying to be patient and not give attitude like you have been doing but I am very close to it now. 

This thread started off as a simple debate but you have done an amazing job at turning it into a full blown argument with your attitude.

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how can you seriously argue the point that the majority of average people do not have neutered pets because you and your friend dont????...you are in fact wrong about showing and finally the americans well what proof do you have of that statement?...do you know someone there too?...yes i know i have an attitude now but thats because you got involved with an full blown attack on me and im fed up with it and futhermore ......your latest comments have no facts behind them!

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

Well...considering that less than three days ago I stepped off a plane where I had spent three months there visiting my Fiancee. But I had have also spent time there training dogs. I was in the vets last wednesday becuase my friends dog died and I had a discussion with the vet about the dogs and the subject of neutering came up. The vet said that he would not suggest neutering a dog unless it was for a medical reason because it is an unneccesary risk to the dog. Not only does the dog have the stress of the days after surgery but they also have the danger of being put under anasthetic.

And while I was there the AKC national championship was being held where the dogs there are not neutered when they are entered into the show. And if you want facts I would probably be able to get the number of the chairman of the American Kennel Club as well as the vet whom I spoke to last week.

I am no longer going to fuel your attitude. It seems to me that all you want is a fight and I believe I have presented all the information that I need to.

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

Well...considering that less than three days ago I stepped off a plane where I had spent three months there visiting my Fiancee.  But I had have also spent time there training dogs.  I was in the vets last wednesday becuase my friends dog died and I had a discussion with the vet about the dogs and the subject of neutering came up.  The vet said that he would not suggest neutering a dog unless it was for a medical reason because it is an unneccesary risk to the dog.  Not only does the dog have the stress of the days after surgery but they also have the danger of being put under anasthetic.
And while I was there the AKC national championship was being held where the dogs there are not neutered when they are entered into the show.  And if you want facts I would probably be able to get the number of the chairman of the American Kennel Club as well as the vet whom I spoke to last week.

I am no longer going to fuel your attitude.  It seems to me that all you want is a fight and I believe I have presented all the information that I need to.

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well maybe i will agree with you on the american arguement on not neutering...that is if however you maybe find a few more thousand vets other than the 1 you spoke to that agree with him!

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

Sure no problem I'll go through the phone book and call the rest of the states and see what they think...

Come on this is getting no where...i think we have all made our point...we should just stop this fighting...its pointless and beginning to get ridiculous.

 

[Seraphina]

You will find that the kennel club will not allow someone to enter a dog into a show that has been neutered and if my numbers are correct over ten thousand dogs enter crufts each year. Also in the states the AKC state that you cannot show a dog that has been neutered...and vets there do not recommend neutering unless for a medical reason. Considering there are a lot more dogs there than here...the majority of people in the world do not neuter their dogs.

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I do not think that is a very good argument! To start with the USA is not indicative of the world (even if they mostly think they are the center of the universe )

The USA has population of 295,734,134 people so even if only 1 in 10 had a dog that would make it close to 30 000 000, so some tens of thousands of entire show dogs is certainly not a majority. I go to some US dog sites and they are all very much for "altering" their animals and do it routinely as young as 8 weeks. And get quite aggressive if you suggest that it may not be necessary .

 

Here in Australia most of pets are definitely desexed, on the continent it is also becoming more widespread, although not I believe in some of the Scandinavian countries (who, by the way, do not seem to have a big dumping problem). Of course, in most of the world, and by that I mean China (1,3 billion people), Africa, India (about billion people) etc people are very unlikely to desex a dog, they also do not vaccinate them, except against rabies, which is compulsory in many countries. But they have other dog population control means (bucket).

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

Sure no problem I'll go through the phone book and call the rest of the states and see what they think...
Come on this is getting no where...i think we have all made our point...we should just stop this fighting...its pointless and beginning to get ridiculous.

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i agree it is ridiculous ...i never wanted an arguement ...i just made the mistake of disagreeing with certain people and you went along with a chosen few on this forum who are narrow minded and bully people and i am sick of it...i will not be bullied!

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

You will find that the kennel club will not allow someone to enter a dog into a show that has been neutered and if my numbers are correct over ten thousand dogs enter crufts each year. Also in the states the AKC state that you cannot show a dog that has been neutered...and vets there do not recommend neutering unless for a medical reason. Considering there are a lot more dogs there than here...the majority of people in the world do not neuter their dogs.

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I do not think that is a very good argument! To start with the USA is not indicative of the world (even if they mostly think they are the center of the universe )

The USA has population of 295,734,134 people so even if only 1 in 10 had a dog that would make it close to 30 000 000, so some tens of thousands of entire show dogs is certainly not a majority. I go to some US dog sites and they are all very much for "altering" their animals and do it routinely as young as 8 weeks. And get quite aggressive if you suggest that it may not be necessary .

 

Here in Australia most of pets are definitely desexed, on the continent it is also becoming more widespread, although not I believe in some of the Scandinavian countries (who, by the way, do not seem to have a big dumping problem). Of course, in most of the world, and by that I mean China (1,3 billion people), Africa, India (about billion people) etc people are very unlikely to desex a dog, they also do not vaccinate them, except against rabies, which is compulsory in many countries. But they have other dog population control means (bucket).

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Fair point seraphina, but from the people I worked with in the states they seemed not to get their dogs neutered unless medically necessary. The rules are going to be different in different countries.

Furthermore, I really dont see how me admitting that the majority of people get their dogs neutered which I still dont believe is true is going to stop this argument. We should just agree to disagree and have an end to it.

 

[Lynn-Alexandria]

Now hold on a minute...I did not bully anyone. I merely stated my opinion and was thrown comments by you about living in another world. I am far from narrow minded. And I'll say this, there are people on this comm who are devoted to their dogs and will stand up for their beliefs. But never did standing up for ones beliefs mean that they should be treated the way you have treated some people on this comm tonight.

There was no need for you to continue fighting and even when I have said agree to disagree and that we should not argue you turned round and insulted me by saying that I was narrow minded and a bully. What gives you the right to think that you can come on here and treat people this way? All Dawn did was merely state an opinion and you started being rude to those who replied. Do you expect us to just sit there and take such rudeness? No, we are going to reply. We have a right to speak our minds, but there is no right for the sheer rudeness that has been viewed on here tonight.

Once again I am going to say that we should agree to disagree becuase this is really starting to get out of hand.

 

[wild whippies]

Ok I have an opinion......

When I die I want to be reincarted as a dolphin :- "

Come on folks, lifes too short, you've made your opinions stated your reasons and why you believe in them. Lets agree to disagree, but one thing I will say about all of you is that you all do what you personally believe is what is in the best interests of your breed and no-one can doubt that.