Tasmanian devil

[Lisa dunne]

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Hi All

My pup, 12 weeks old is learning not to mouth after 10 second time outs in her crate. She loves her crate and goes in for sleeps regularly so I can safely use this but...and there is big but.,getting her in there for the time out normally involves what seems a bit of aggressive nipping behaviour and hence the title ‘Tasmanian devil’. This tends to be when she is having her ‘crazy’ moment and there is no calming her. Am I doing the right thing by picking her up and carrying her to her time out? Distraction rarely works and a scared 10 yr old and frustrated hubby means having the problem dealt with. Any other suggestions would be gratefully received. Generally speaking she is a good pup and has good nature. Thanks in advance.

 

[JoanneF]

Yes, time outs are a good strategy. She will learn that teeth on skin = end of play.

Three things - first, you might also want to try an alternative outlet for her energy, maybe a flirt pole which keeps the teeth well away from the people? You can make them quite easily but here are a few https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8...hvtargid=kwd-1225317989&ref=pd_sl_wh70wkugk_b

Second, make sure your 10 year old doesn't jump or squeal as that would ramp up your puppy's excitement.

Third, when you are addressing a behaviour like this you get something called extinction burst which is where a behaviour that used to get your attention no longer works for the dog so she practices it even harder to get the response she used to get. This is good, it shows your strategy is working.

 

[JudyN]

You could also try giving timeouts by removing yourself from her, i.e. leaving the room, rather than putting her in the crate. Or simply putting her outside the room you're in. She could wear a light trailing house lead (with no loop) to make this easier.

 

[Lisa dunne]

Yes, time outs are a good strategy. She will learn that teeth on skin = end of play.

Three things - first, you might also want to try an alternative outlet for her energy, maybe a flirt pole which keeps the teeth well away from the people? You can make them quite easily but here are a few https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8...hvtargid=kwd-1225317989&ref=pd_sl_wh70wkugk_b

Second, make sure your 10 year old doesn't jump or squeal as that would ramp up your puppy's excitement.

Third, when you are addressing a behaviour like this you get something called extinction burst which is where a behaviour that used to get your attention no longer works for the dog so she practices it even harder to get the response she used to get. This is good, it shows your strategy is working.

 

[Lisa dunne]

Fab advice thank you so much and reassuring to know she is learning. I have ordered the flirt pole too.

 

[Lisa dunne]

You could also try giving timeouts by removing yourself from her, i.e. leaving the room, rather than putting her in the crate. Or simply putting her outside the room you're in. She could wear a light trailing house lead (with no loop) to make this easier.

Thank you so much Judy. I have put this into play also. Def like the house lead.

 

[Violet Turner]

Opinion: This sounds to me like an over excited puppy that has ether been dropped or injured while being handled and now has a slight fear-aggression. How is your puppy at the vet when administering vaccinations? And what about kennel cough vaccine?
Aggression comes in different forms and appears for different reasons. Some can be dangerous but some are just normal behaviours that all puppies have.
You will want all the aggression discouraged, so your pup can grow and be friendly, confident, and well-adjusted.
99% of the time what you interpret as puppy aggression is simply normal puppy behaviour. All puppies well behaved or not will nip, bite, growl it's how they communicate with other puppies, dogs and us humans. This is a huge part of a puppy's socialisation as they grow.
• A puppy can become aggressive due to there genetics. It could be that his mum/dad had dominance issues so has passed it onto him.
• Personality. Puppies who are dominant can be over-bossy.
• Neurological problems. Underlying problems can cause aggression.
• Resource guarding. If your puppy uses his teeth and growling when protecting food, toys and treats. This is mainly seen when there is a huge litter of squabbles.
If your puppy is from the guardian breed category or is a bully breed he will have an instinct to guard things, playing rough, and will be wary of other dogs. However this doesn't mean they are aggressive or will produce aggressive litters. Aggression as a learned behaviour can be a result of bad human/dog interactions. If a puppy is mistreated by the owner, some dogs/puppies can eventually protect himself using aggressive actions. Some dog breeds are seen as 'dangerous' such as; Dobermans, Rottweilers, GSD, Staffys, Pit-bulls and many more... Puppies of this breed are labeled as aggressive.
~ Fear aggression: Nervious, shy and fearful puppies can be hyper-reactive to the world around them. They could be afraid by passing cars, new people, sudden noises, cats etc. When he gets scared, confused or threatened then they will most likely respond aggressively by growling or biting. The dept of the fear makes a dog unpredictable this is probably the most dangerous aggression. A puppy who is Nervous or shy will need loads of positive reinforcement and positive socialisation to teach that the world is okay. You need to be patient if you won't commit then give up the dog up for adoption! With calm, a predictable daily routine and professional puppy training an anxious puppy should grow into a confident happy dog.
Punishment aggression: When a puppy is learning they will always make mistakes, being told no will end up with corrections being made. Using harsh, physical punishment or shouting is a huge no-no. This behaviour from the owner will not teach the puppy anything only that humans are unpredictable and scary. If you repeatedly smack or hit your dog it will make the dog scared and angry. Some breeds of puppies will tolerate this aggressive, abusive behaviour, but they won't be happy confident happy dogs/puppies. So always use positive reinforcement with your puppy. Preventing aggression in your puppy:
• learn what your puppy's normal behaviour is.
• only use positive reward techniques.
• make training exciting.
• never punish your puppy.
If you ever need any more information then just ask

This is about how to give your puppy a real proper time out...

How to Give Your Dog a Time-out

 

[JoanneF]

This sounds to me like an over excited puppy that has ether been dropped or injured while being handled and now has a slight fear-aggression.

What rubbish. This sounds to me like normal puppy behaviour. As indeed you recognise later in your post.

99% of the time what you interpret as puppy aggression is simply normal puppy behaviour

 

[leashedForLife]

.

agreeing with others, i'd avoid PICKING HER UP, it gets U way-too close & only provides more opps to bite.

I'd leave the room abruptly [say nothing & don't act angry, just exit] & return within 5-seconds - pups & dogs need immediate opps to sin again, so that they can connect the consequence [U leave...] with their own actions [I bit U...].
If there's any significant time-gap between the consequence & the new opportunity to sin, the dog can't make the crucial connection between "I do X, & then Y happens". // It also takes a number of times, experiencing that same consequence, for the penny to drop - "Ah-ha! - THAT's why they do that...", because dogs as a species are slow to generalize.

A drag-line of course is another option, but dragging the pup to the crate isn't a good choice, & jollying her along on the drag-line would certainly confuse the whole idea of "this is a time-out, U did something unwanted".
The drag-line would, however, be perfect for getting the pup IMMEDIATELY away from the child, the hubby, or U - when the bites are too painful, forceful, or frequent, take her away from her target-victim, & out of the room.

for good ways to teach a soft mouth, see the FREE books here -
Free downloads

Before U Get Ur Pup & After... are both very clear, helpful, & safe sources - no physical punishment, no intimidating or confrontation, just goof-proofing the environs & the process, teaching what we want, & rewarding desired behavior.


- terry

.

 

[JudyN]

She probably just doesn't like being picked up and is frustrated because the fun has stopped. There's no reason I can see to suspect pain/injury, nor to worry about resource guarding, neurological disorders, etc.

 

[merlina]

We have never picked up our puppies as part of discipline or training. I think there is a risk of ramping up the aggression through- as has been mentioned- frustration. This is a very young animal- a baby!- and has only one method of interacting with the world- by mouth. We always let our puppies work off their excess energy and studiously ignore unwanted behaviour. If a baby threw its toys out of the pram you would tie its hands down and yet we often try to control very young dogs in restrictive ways. It's a great opportunity for your 10 yo to start learning about the different way animals see the world from humans (I always told children in our family 'to the puppy you are a big scary giant!') and how we must modify our behaviour to help them live life happy lives. Good luck with training. But puppies are puppies for a very short time and dogs' lives are so short too. I look back on the things that bothered me and think 'why didn't I just enjoy them?'.

 

[Flobo]

I know this may be a bit old school, but as she is a young pup learning boundaries, have you tried yelping like her litter mates or mum would when mouthing/play gets a bit too much rather than time out in a crate? It is a long time since I have had a pup but this was the method I was taught to help and with the right pitch of yelp and consistency of use it usually helped. My only other worry is that her crate is her safe happy place of choice but also a place she is being sent when she needs 'time out' for 'unacceptable' behavior, is that not conflicting use of a crate?? .I have no experience of crate training so apologies if I am completely wrong...

 

[JudyN]

I know this may be a bit old school, but as she is a young pup learning boundaries, have you tried yelping like her litter mates or mum would when mouthing/play gets a bit too much rather than time out in a crate?

From my own experience and what I've read, that works really well for some pups/people and not for others - it didn't work with my dog as it just got him more ramped up, whereas the silent method was better.

 

[Lisa dunne]

.

agreeing with others, i'd avoid PICKING HER UP, it gets U way-too close & only provides more opps to bite.

I'd leave the room abruptly [say nothing & don't act angry, just exit] & return within 5-seconds - pups & dogs need immediate opps to sin again, so that they can connect the consequence [U leave...] with their own actions [I bit U...].
If there's any significant time-gap between the consequence & the new opportunity to sin, the dog can't make the crucial connection between "I do X, & then Y happens". // It also takes a number of times, experiencing that same consequence, for the penny to drop - "Ah-ha! - THAT's why they do that...", because dogs as a species are slow to generalize.

A drag-line of course is another option, but dragging the pup to the crate isn't a good choice, & jollying her along on the drag-line would certainly confuse the whole idea of "this is a time-out, U did something unwanted".
The drag-line would, however, be perfect for getting the pup IMMEDIATELY away from the child, the hubby, or U - when the bites are too painful, forceful, or frequent, take her away from her target-victim, & out of the room.

for good ways to teach a soft mouth, see the FREE books here -
Free downloads

Before U Get Ur Pup & After... are both very clear, helpful, & safe sources - no physical punishment, no intimidating or confrontation, just goof-proofing the environs & the process, teaching what we want, & rewarding desired behavior.


- terry

.

I know this may be a bit old school, but as she is a young pup learning boundaries, have you tried yelping like her litter mates or mum would when mouthing/play gets a bit too much rather than time out in a crate? It is a long time since I have had a pup but this was the method I was taught to help and with the right pitch of yelp and consistency of use it usually helped. My only other worry is that her crate is her safe happy place of choice but also a place she is being sent when she needs 'time out' for 'unacceptable' behavior, is that not conflicting use of a crate?? .I have no experience of crate training so apologies if I am completely wrong...

.

agreeing with others, i'd avoid PICKING HER UP, it gets U way-too close & only provides more opps to bite.

I'd leave the room abruptly [say nothing & don't act angry, just exit] & return within 5-seconds - pups & dogs need immediate opps to sin again, so that they can connect the consequence [U leave...] with their own actions [I bit U...].
If there's any significant time-gap between the consequence & the new opportunity to sin, the dog can't make the crucial connection between "I do X, & then Y happens". // It also takes a number of times, experiencing that same consequence, for the penny to drop - "Ah-ha! - THAT's why they do that...", because dogs as a species are slow to generalize.

A drag-line of course is another option, but dragging the pup to the crate isn't a good choice, & jollying her along on the drag-line would certainly confuse the whole idea of "this is a time-out, U did something unwanted".
The drag-line would, however, be perfect for getting the pup IMMEDIATELY away from the child, the hubby, or U - when the bites are too painful, forceful, or frequent, take her away from her target-victim, & out of the room.

for good ways to teach a soft mouth, see the FREE books here -
Free downloads

Before U Get Ur Pup & After... are both very clear, helpful, & safe sources - no physical punishment, no intimidating or confrontation, just goof-proofing the environs & the process, teaching what we want, & rewarding desired behavior.


- terry

.

.

agreeing with others, i'd avoid PICKING HER UP, it gets U way-too close & only provides more opps to bite.

I'd leave the room abruptly [say nothing & don't act angry, just exit] & return within 5-seconds - pups & dogs need immediate opps to sin again, so that they can connect the consequence [U leave...] with their own actions [I bit U...].
If there's any significant time-gap between the consequence & the new opportunity to sin, the dog can't make the crucial connection between "I do X, & then Y happens". // It also takes a number of times, experiencing that same consequence, for the penny to drop - "Ah-ha! - THAT's why they do that...", because dogs as a species are slow to generalize.

A drag-line of course is another option, but dragging the pup to the crate isn't a good choice, & jollying her along on the drag-line would certainly confuse the whole idea of "this is a time-out, U did something unwanted".
The drag-line would, however, be perfect for getting the pup IMMEDIATELY away from the child, the hubby, or U - when the bites are too painful, forceful, or frequent, take her away from her target-victim, & out of the room.

for good ways to teach a soft mouth, see the FREE books here -
Free downloads

Before U Get Ur Pup & After... are both very clear, helpful, & safe sources - no physical punishment, no intimidating or confrontation, just goof-proofing the environs & the process, teaching what we want, & rewarding desired behavior.


- terry

.

Thank you I am going to instigate a drag line as she will chase if when we finally manage to coax her off us, however slow we walk.

 

[Lisa dunne]

I know this may be a bit old school, but as she is a young pup learning boundaries, have you tried yelping like her litter mates or mum would when mouthing/play gets a bit too much rather than time out in a crate? It is a long time since I have had a pup but this was the method I was taught to help and with the right pitch of yelp and consistency of use it usually helped. My only other worry is that her crate is her safe happy place of choice but also a place she is being sent when she needs 'time out' for 'unacceptable' behavior, is that not conflicting use of a crate?? .I have no experience of crate training so apologies if I am completely wrong...

Thank you have tried this but she just gets more excited.

 

[leashedForLife]

.

terrier-types will often react to yelps with glee, as if feeling they SCORED! --- Hurrah!...

If U combine the 'yip!' of an ouch with a simultaneous turning away / cold-shoulder routine, that often makes it very clear to any pup that what s/he did actually hurt, & U can even force them to coax U to play again, as they would another pup or a grown dog.
getting a bit pouty & turning away from the pup, even continuing to turn away as they try to appease U, is often very effective.

But don't get carried away - U don't want to teach a puppy that endlessly persevering eventually pays off!
U don't want to create a stick to beat yer own back, after all.

Labs & Pitties are also breeds that, like terrierrrists, are likely to ignore signals of discomfort, displeasure, or "Stop that!" from other dogs or from humans; they get into play, & get very rough or very nonstop, despite clear signs from the playmate that they're ready to stop, now.
Such dogs are also not good at taking turns, which is a classic sign of good, apropos play, as well as a well-socialized, polite dog - one who isn't ALWAYS the chasee but takes a turn at being chasER, one who self-handicaps when playing with a younger pup or smaller dog, etc.

- terry

.

 

[Violet Turner]

What rubbish. This sounds to me like normal puppy behaviour. As indeed you recognise later in your post.

it isn't though it's quite common and you should take into consideration what I have put above... @Lisa dunne can you confirm that no one has dropped or injured her? What food is your pup on?

 

[Lisa dunne]

it isn't though it's quite common and you should take into consideration what I have put above... @Lisa dunne can you confirm that no one has dropped or injured her? What food is your pup on?

Thanks. I’m weaning her off iams (breeder started her on) to one that vet recommended. Can’t think of the name but part of first steps package. No don’t think she has been dropped. Well not since she has been with us.

 

[Violet Turner]

Okay, I was just asking...