Telling Off Other Dogs

[~Helen~]

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I wonder if anyone has any behavioural advice which might help me?

Josie is 2 years old, not spayed, and lives with younger sister Lola who is a year old. Both dogs have been very well socialised at training classes and in a busy city park on their daily walks. We recently moved to the countryside, but still see other dogs regularly.

Josie was always wonderfully friendly with other dogs when she was our only whippet. Since we brought Lola home, she has been protective when other dogs want to play with Lola, but I thought that would fade as Lola grew up and Josie could see that Lola was no longer a vulnerable puppy.

However, the problem is becoming a bit embarrassing and persistent. Josie has snarled and snapped at three of my friends' dogs now - a border collie, a bichon and a weimaraner. She doesn't bite or even make contact, but she does look and sound quite frightening, with that snarly-up nose and big fangs. My friends are starting to be a bit wary, and mention her as a dog who "doesn't like their dog".

How do I go about understanding why she does this, and what steps should I take to change her behaviour?

 

[Rae]

Holly is like this for a few weeks before she comes into season (or god forbid if someone knocks her legs ) could it be hormonal? I was horrified when she nipped Lucas's brother the other week.

Does she do it when Adrian is with her too? Perhaps she is just feeling that she needs to protect you/Lola and you will need to show her that you are in control? Does she do it on or off lead?

 

[*Lesley*]

Sienna can be like that too Helen, she is pack leader and as always been a bit off hand with other dogs puppies especially unless she spends a bit of time with them, I think once she realises they are no threat she seems to calm down and be ok with them :blink:

Funny thing is while we were on holiday we went to the pub and decided to take just Callie(if we'd taken all 4 we would have been barred (w00t) ) she is the most layed back submissive dog ever, anyway someone sat near to us with a dog and she started barking at it in a protective way to us (w00t) I think she must have promoted herself for the night but it was very strange :unsure:

Awwwww Holly bless her she is sooooo lovely :wub: :wub: :wub:

Sorry I can't suggest anything I just tend to say that sienna can be grumpy with other dogs and tell them why just so people know :thumbsup:

 

[Janimal]

I have exactly the same problem here sometimes Helen - and hence mine are two dogs as you know.

Oscar can be very possessive over Kobi and jealous when he plays with other dogs too, then Oscar gets really grumpy and snappy too.

Like Lesley says Once the dogs see there is really no threat, they seem to calm down most times. :sweating:

Ive noticed they are very different when being walked by one person only, but when OH and me are together and have one each - they react differently again when one is slightly in front for some reason, then Oscar dosnt act so dominant.

Good luck with Josie. :luck:

 

[LasVegasNo1]

We have this problem and Alfie is an only dog! :b He'll start growling when he sees another dog and this will build into a full blown barking/snapping frenzy like he really means business! :blink: He will also usually only pick on HUGE dogs to make matters worse! :wacko: He did recently have a small fight will a springer spaniel, luckily it was over before it got going really :sweating: However he is more likely to act like this when on his lead than off, sometimes if I can see him getting aggressive I let him off and he usually stops..... wimp :b

 

[Joanna]

We have had similar occurences (you saw Archie when Fynn was diddy), it has improved, but the time I really notice it is when they are on leads (a fear thing). It has improved loads, and I now seem to be able to pick up and diffuse a situation before it happens by watching the body language......high tail, and very still stance with head high and slightly cocked. I make silly noises in a high pitched voice, and call Arch a good boy and make a fuss of him and the other dog. If you have a look at Jan Fennell's book, "The seven ages of your dog", She identifies the twos as a period where a dog feels the need to become protector. They start to perceive danger and can demonstrate extreme behaviour. Jan Fennell advises that you should ensure you establish your-self as the alpha pack member, which will in turn put the problem dog back a position in the pack. particularly when you are out walking.

I'll summarise what she says.

1. You decide when the walk happens, don't be bullied if the dog is waiting at the door.

2. Lead from the front as unchallenged leader of the pack, you decide which way you are going, not the dog, go the opposite way some-times

3. Behave like a leader throughout the walk, deal with perceived danger, and don't tolerate leadership challenges.

She also says talking all of the time to a dog is ineffective and becomes back-ground noise. Save talking for important commands. I think this is a good tip (wish I could stop talking all of the time :b ) A simple low growl when Josie challenges might help her realise you are pack leader.

It's a good book and she focuses on why dogs behave differently at certain ages. Josie is Alpha bitch, a hunter and a provider, you might need to make sure she realises you are Alpha bitch :luck: (In the nicest possible way Helen )

 

[~Helen~]

Hey thanks for the replies :thumbsup:

Yes, all your comments about being on the lead and perhaps feeling threatened do make sense. The only time this happens when Josie isn't on the lead is when dogs come visiting (and then I can see that she feels her home is threatened). It doesn't matter whether it's just me, or me and Adrian together, so obviously she sees herself as pack leader rather than either of us.

Alpha Bitch - now that's an exciting term :lol: I'll have to do some more research and act accordingly to make sure the Alpha Bitch is me! :lol:

This has become a problem since we moved house and Josie has taken herself off into the wild as a hunter, so it would make sense that she thinks her position has changed and is capitalizing on it.

 

[Joanna]

My friends are starting to be a bit wary, and mention her as a dog who "doesn't like their dog".

We all have a tendancy to humanise our dogs, Josie doesn't hate or dislike certain dogs, she is simply reacting to a situation in an instinctive way. As owners, we experience the emotions, the embarassment, the worry, the anticipation. Even though I am guilty of it, it does help if you just analyse the problem as pack behaviour and not label it with human terminology. Best of luck with the Alpha bitch practice :cheers:

 

[~elizabeth~]

"The seven ages of your dog", She identifies the twos as a period where a dog feels the need to become protector.

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I think there's a special stage for whippets when they realise that they are different from other dogs, and decide they prefer to socialise with other hounds, and start to become more suspicious of other breeds. Ours went from being really sociable with ALL dogs to quite suddenly becoming very defensive towards large black and tan breeds :- " and generally just ignoring anything that wasn't a whippet, lurcher or terrier.

This was also the stage at which he decided he wasn't going to let his overbearing Lab companion Sita bully him anymore; he nipped her one day when she barged him for a toy and ever since he has been top dog in the relationship, and they've actually got on much better since this happened. It's lucky that Sita's owner is very easygoing and knowledgable about dogs, and so was happy to let them sort it out themselves. I also notice he prefers other breeds that have very demonstrative body language (lots of tail wagging etc); he will not now go near non-sighthounds that are inscrutable or undemonstrative in their behaviour. I think it's just part of growing up and trying to figure out their position in relation to other kinds of dog.

 

[Janimal]

Hey thanks for the replies :thumbsup:
Yes, all your comments about being on the lead and perhaps feeling threatened do make sense. The only time this happens when Josie isn't on the lead is when dogs come visiting (and then I can see that she feels her home is threatened). It doesn't matter whether it's just me, or me and Adrian together, so obviously she sees herself as pack leader rather than either of us.

Alpha Bitch - now that's an exciting term :lol: I'll have to do some more research and act accordingly to make sure the Alpha Bitch is me! :lol:

This has become a problem since we moved house and Josie has taken herself off into the wild as a hunter, so it would make sense that she thinks her position has changed and is capitalizing on it.

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Thats a brilliant bit of advice Joanna, Im going to try some of those low growls on my walks - and cant wait to see peoples faces. :lol: :- "

 

[Joanna]

I do my best to maintain my position in the house as Alpha Bitch. Low growl does work, but only on the dogs sadly :- "

 

[urchin]

have not tried growling at Dij....in fact probebly the only thing i've not tried!

Jan doesn't mention it in the 'practical dog listener' book, so i was unsure about whether this would be helpful or not

However, i'll give it a go!

i can report though, that the general demoting of digit and promoting myself to alpha bitch is really helping. he's much more likely now to alert me to the presence of other dogs with a whiney kind of yodel, rather than full-on barking - doing his bit, but letting me deal with it.

Have ordered the 'severn ages of your dog' book Joanna .... the terrible two's thing rings true! Dij was always one to rush up to other dogs, but with a waggy tail and leaping around barking in a 'come and play' kinda way. But as he got older this definately changed into protective 'seeing off the threat' posturing....and on occasion a full on attack (w00t)

 

[~Helen~]

have not tried growling at Dij....in fact probebly the only thing i've not tried!Jan doesn't mention it in the 'practical dog listener' book, so i was unsure about whether this would be helpful or not

However, i'll give it a go!

i can report though, that the general demoting of digit and promoting myself to alpha bitch is really helping. he's much more likely now to alert me to the presence of other dogs with a whiney kind of yodel, rather than full-on barking - doing his bit, but letting me deal with it.

Have ordered the 'severn ages of your dog' book Joanna .... the terrible two's thing rings true! Dij was always one to rush up to other dogs, but with a waggy tail and leaping around barking in a 'come and play' kinda way. But as he got older this definately changed into protective 'seeing off the threat' posturing....and on occasion a full on attack  (w00t)

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I've been reading your journal, and I'm so impressed with your amazing consistency :thumbsup: I'm not sure that Josie's problem is the same, so I may have to get the Jan Fennel book and have a read to see how it might help us. There are interesting things going on, which I've noticed recently, for instance Josie trying to determine which walk we're going to go on, and how fast we're going to walk it, so that may need some work (I never give in on the 'which walk' - we walk my choice not hers, although I do allow my arm to be pulled most of the time on our outbound journey).

 

[~Helen~]

Thanks, Hannah, I'll try and observe more closely when this happens again. As far as I can tell, generally the other dog is doing nothing. Usually they are quite submissive dogs, too, who are immediately cowed and chastened by Josie's behaviour. They might come close to Lola, and Josie just goes right on in there yapping and snarling in their faces. I'll have a closer look at her body language next time to see where her ears are and what her tail's doing.

:thumbsup: thanks.

 

[Rae]

Erm

I was going to say that I find dog behaviour fascinating too.

We have had some issues :- " with Leia recently and went back to basic training, which included not allowing her off her lead when I didnt think I could reliably recall her (ie in the woods over the road from us). She has improved immensley and it has been worth the effort.

It hasnt just been a case of telling her not to do certain things, but also showing her what I wanted her to do instead, offering her an alternative behaviour and rewarding her for it. Clicker training has really worked well, but I've also had to be quite strict with her. It might work if you show Josie not only what you dont want her to do, but rewarding her for chosing an alternative behaviour aswell.

:luck: Helen, I'm sure you'll sort this.

 

[*Lesley*]

Erm 

I was going to say that I find dog behaviour fascinating too.

We have had some issues  :- "  with Leia recently and went back to basic training, which included not allowing her off her lead when I didnt think I could reliably recall her (ie in the woods over the road from us).  She has improved immensley and it has been worth the effort.

It hasnt just been a case of telling her not to do certain things, but also showing her what I wanted her to do instead, offering her an alternative behaviour and rewarding her for it.  Clicker training has really worked well, but I've also had to be quite strict with her.  It might work if you show Josie not only what you dont want her to do, but rewarding her for chosing an alternative behaviour aswell.

:luck:   Helen, I'm sure you'll sort this.

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We had to go back to basics too Rae with Sienna she was buggering off when free running so when she did Andy put her back on the lead for a while then let her go again and repeated it until she came back straight away she was just getting too big for her boots for a while o

I think they just forget who is in charge sometimes

 

[BeeJay]

>I personally thought Jan Fennels book was a waste of money

I wouldn't buy her books either. Most of it IMO and the opinion of the dog trainers/behaviourists that I respect has been written before by other experts. There are much better books on dog training out there. Any of John Fisher's books who sadly died a few years ago for example. Don't Shoot The Dog by Karen Pryor which is about reshaping behaviour and clicker training (might be a bit technical for a first read though) and John Rogersons books.

 

[*Lesley*]

I don't buy books I ask you lot :lol: :thumbsup: and the rest I make up as I go along, the dogs usually let me know if I'm doing an okay job

 

[Rae]

I've got dont shoot the dog and yes it is a bit technical :b . We did clicker classes and then the book made more sense.

(Oh yes I must remember to get photo's of Leia / Vader skateboarding - Jo has seen it she can vouch for me 8) )

 

[Joanna]

http://www.k9community.co.uk/forums/index....showtopic=23263