Time in Crate, Opinions?

[Dee89]

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I've heard so many different opinions on crate training and I'm still wanting to clarify.
8 week old Wheaten pup is currently been/being crate trained. She goes in on her own and when she falls asleep elsewhere (We have a proper dog bed as an alternative and plenty blankets) I pick her up and put her in her crate. No issues there (yet!)
I'm just wondering when she is older how long is too long to be in the Crate?
We will have a dog walker/family member to pop in once a day when we are at work (dog walker is an hour and family probably 2) which means approx 8 hours total (2x4 hour stints) in the crate when we are not at home. Eventually we will have her in her proper dog bed upstairs with us so this will be the only time in the Crate and not during the night also

I know it's their safe place and she's happy being there as she only ever whines to get out if she needs a pee.
Just looking for confirmation this is okay, I worry about her lol
Thanks!
Dee x

 

[Caro Perry]

That's a long time to be honest for a young dog. They need company and mental stimulation and you'll be leaving her alone in the cage for 8 hours a day. Is doggy day care an option?

How are you going to manage the house training? I had to take mine out every hour or so and even at 6 months he'd struggle to last that long

 

[JoanneF]

@Caro Perry makes good points. I would also add that if your dog walker is coming for an hour, and your family member for two, these are also quite long times for a puppy - you couldn't for example walk her for anything like that - so could the visits be broken up to, say, four twenty minute visits? But Caro is right in that you would struggle to house train her, she can't possibly hold for four hours so she will have no alternative but to soil her crate which will be distressing for her.

 

[Dee89]

She can already hold the toilet for between 2 and 4 hours at the moment and that's during the day as well as at night. She has free access to water so is drinking plenty. Me and my partner have time off for the first 5 weeks (Me first then him) to get her settled and house trained.
Doggy day care is an option but not for every day as our shifts vary and sometimes we don't finish till midnight it 2am.
If we do doggy day care it would leave 5 days a month where it would be just a dog walker or a family member (due to our shifts it's only 10 days a month we require a dog walker/sitter) We get good days off
Dee x

 

[excuseme]

I'm sorry, I do not mean to be rude or offensive, but the more posts I read like this the more I dislike the use of modern convenient cages for our dogs.
I do not believe that our dogs should be shut in a cage for so many hours each day. I do agree that cages can help with some training. I will never understand why people have a puppy and leave it caged "for convenience" while owners are out at work for hours at a time.
Dee89, you have obviously thought about how to manage your puppy but what quality time will your puppy have with yourselves when you get home after a hard days work. Could you consider adding a puppy pen to your cage for when you are away, to give your puppy a little more movement and freedom?

 

[Dee89]

The crate training is for her safety and will only be using it until she stops teething. She chews on everything and god forbid she chews wiring or something else she shouldnt and swallows something dangerous.
Me and my partner dont have the luxury of taking extra time off or taking her to work (We are both police officers) so this ensures she is safe whilst we're at work. When we get home we will take it in turns to stay up with the pup and play with her giving her all the attention she requires. Then when she settles down they'l go to bed and after an hour or 2 the other will get up and repeat
Dee x

 

[Josie]

If this helps at all, I have been doing a few puppy visits to a lovely sprocker and she has a crate but they have also built a small pen around the crate that contains toys, water etc so she can stretch her legs and then return to her crate to sleep. It's a really nice set up. I'm seeing her tomorrow and if the owner allows I can take a photo if you like?

Unfortunately it's not always possible to be with our dogs throughout the day however much we wish we could so this set up is good for your puppy but also for the human

 

[Dee89]

Thank you for your opinions folks. Would a pen like this be sufficient? I'm not sure if it attaches to a crate easily (could use cable ties?) but it's 1m high so defo high enough and looks really big. Plenty of space.
Josie/excuseme I appreciate your help with this. As this is my first dog I want it to go as smoothly as possible. (My partner has had dogs his whole life but not as an adult with a full time job lol)
With the pen how would prevent her from having any accidents in the house? Obv frequent trips outside but for whenever we aren't there? Do you suggest a puppy pad that she can choose to go on or going cold turkey? She doesn't particularly use puppy pads at the moment (I'm good at taking her out cos I'm off work) its more for us to put her in if she's about to go
Again thank you all so much it's appreciated
Dee x

 

[excuseme]

Personally I would cover/protect the floor with newspaper to soak up accidents. I would not give her puppy pads.
Potty training will not be easy with you both working so much.
Picking the puppy up and carrying her outside is best if you notice she is about to go (they don't always have time to take a walk across the room to the outside.)
Re useable cable ties or some clips to attach the pen.

 

[Dee89]

Newspaper in the pen? Got it
Toilet training won't be that bad, like I said she's holding it for between 2 and 4 hours the now and I still take her out every hour or 2 just incase. When we are at work she won't be left any longer than 4 hours so halfway there
Dee x

 

[JoanneF]

I can't comment on the pen but personally I think puppy pads are awful. They give a mixed message about whether it's ok to toilet indoors or not. And some dogs later get confused about toileting on lovely soft things like puppy pads - or your duvet.

I don't know your husband's experience of toilet training, e.g. how old he was when his family dogs were young and how involved he was, so I will add the following at the risk of repeating what you already know.

Toilet training happens when two things come together - the ABILITY to hold the toilet, along with the DESIRE to hold it in order to earn the reward for doing so.

Ideally you want her to not be in a position where she needs to toilet before you have her outdoors, so that every toilet is outside - as far as possible, there will be accidents! So set her up to succeed by taking her out even more than she needs; for example every 45 minutes to an hour and always after sleeping, eating, playing. When she toilets outdoors make a huge fuss (never mind the neighbours, act like outdoor toileting is the best thing you have ever seen) and reward her with a high value treat. Do that immediately, don't make her come to you for the treat so she is clear that it's for toileting and not for coming to you. The idea is that she wants to earn the treat enough to hold the toilet until she is outside - once she is physically able to control her toileting obviously. If she has an accident inside don't react at all. If you get annoyed she may learn to fear your reaction and avoid you if she needs to toilet - the opposite of what you want. As she is actually performing the toilet you can introduce words she can associate with it (like 'do weewee' and 'busy busy') that later when she is reliably trained you can use these to tell her when you want her to toilet.

Indoors if you see her circling or scratching the floor, that can sometimes precede toileting so get her out fast.

Overnight she is unlikely to be able to control her toilet as her little bladder and bowel are underdeveloped and not strong enough to hold all night so set your alarm to take her out at least once if not twice during the night.

 

[Dee89]

I can't comment on the pen but personally I think puppy pads are awful. They give a mixed message about whether it's ok to toilet indoors or not. And some dogs later get confused about toileting on lovely soft things like puppy pads - or your duvet.

I don't know your husband's experience of toilet training, e.g. how old he was when his family dogs were young and how involved he was, so I will add the following at the risk of repeating what you already know.

Toilet training happens when two things come together - the ABILITY to hold the toilet, along with the DESIRE to hold it in order to earn the reward for doing so.

Ideally you want her to not be in a position where she needs to toilet before you have her outdoors, so that every toilet is outside - as far as possible, there will be accidents! So set her up to succeed by taking her out even more than she needs; for example every 45 minutes to an hour and always after sleeping, eating, playing. When she toilets outdoors make a huge fuss (never mind the neighbours, act like outdoor toileting is the best thing you have ever seen) and reward her with a high value treat. Do that immediately, don't make her come to you for the treat so she is clear that it's for toileting and not for coming to you. The idea is that she wants to earn the treat enough to hold the toilet until she is outside - once she is physically able to control her toileting obviously. If she has an accident inside don't react at all. If you get annoyed she may learn to fear your reaction and avoid you if she needs to toilet - the opposite of what you want. As she is actually performing the toilet you can introduce words she can associate with it (like 'do weewee' and 'busy busy') that later when she is reliably trained you can use these to tell her when you want her to toilet.

Indoors if you see her circling or scratching the floor, that can sometimes precede toileting so get her out fast.

Overnight she is unlikely to be able to control her toilet as her little bladder and bowel are underdeveloped and not strong enough to hold all night so set your alarm to take her out at least once if not twice during the night.

I saw this post elsewhere and it's what I've been following since we got her She has a favourite toy I keep to use with her clicker (she's not fussed about treats) and I'm taking her out as often as I can (in between her naps and the zoomies ) she doesn't always go outside and sometimes she'll holding and as soon as we come back inside she pees. I dont react i just clean it up and go about normslly. It's barely 1 degree Celsius so might be she dislikes the cold but I'm persevering. She'll get it eventually.
Steven has been taking her out during the night when he finishes work (between midnight and 1) and then playing with her for an hour. I then set my alarm for 6am and get up. She's almost always awake when I go down but not whining and no accidents. I lift her and take her outside before doing anything else
Dee x

 

[Josie]

Hi @Dee89 - It was more of a homemade pen but with all correct equipment (just not a round shaped one)

I'l see if I can get a good photo for you tomorrow. I know they use puppy pads but I don't personally have any experience with this. Their set up is to have someone in twice a day whilst they are at work. The morning visit is just a quick 15 minutes to take her out for a wee and poo and have a play. Then the second visit is for 30 minutes where she will go for a small walk

 

[JoanneF]

I wrote that ages ago and saved it to copy!

she'll holding and as soon as we come back inside she pees.

Sometimes they do that. You could try taking her out, waiting, if she does nothing bring her in, then back out again. It 'clicks' for them when they realise how much outdoor toileting makes it rain rewards. What about something super-special like tiny slivers of hot dog or chicken? Would she take these?

 

[Caro Perry]

I got a puppy pen for Harri for the garden whilst we worked on the fencing. I actually find it more useful for putting stuff in that he shouldn't get - last week it was guarding the Christmas tree in the sitting room. Worked brilliantly.

My pen doesn't have the walk through bit. A whole panel hinges so it would be easy to attach it with cable ties to each side of a crate for maximum space inside the pen. It came from a local pet shop and was quite a bit cheaper than that Amazon one.

I have a stairgate across the kitchen door to use if I need to confine Harri. He does have a crate in the kitchen which he loves to sleep in but the door is always open for him to come out. It took a few hours to "puppy proof" the kitchen but it gives him a lot of space if he needs to be left for a bit.

 

[Caro Perry]

It's this one I think Top Paw® Exercise Pen | dog Houses & Pens | PetSmart

 

[Dee89]

I wrote that ages ago and saved it to copy!



Sometimes they do that. You could try taking her out, waiting, if she does nothing bring her in, then back out again. It 'clicks' for them when they realise how much outdoor toileting makes it rain rewards. What about something super-special like tiny slivers of hot dog or chicken? Would she take these?

I'm not sure actually, I could try it and hope for the best. She had a wee accident in the house today but my family were up and she was too excited to stay outside and go. She's still very young so I don't mind
The pen seems to be working a treat. I have her food and water in it and her other wee cushion bed incase she fancies a change. She's been in it almost the whole day of herbown accord. She's sleeping so much now so u hope she sees it as her wee safe place
Dee x

 

[Josie]

This is the picture of the set up at the puppies house I visit sometimes