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Calling them Bully Whippets is misleading in itself I think, tho'.  Makes one assume it is a cross between a bull terrier and a whippet.

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It's used because in the early creation of the racing whippet, Staffies / bull terriers were occasionally used to give the dogs more muscle. The term came about because people thought it was a throwback to this breeding. Bully whippets tend to display some of the characteristics of these terriers too e.g. the sitting and laughing positions so associated with Staffies.

have to say that the idea that somebody may try to breed them, or even use them to create a new breed really puts my hackles up.   :rant:

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Non-ped racers certainly don't deliberately try to breed them but they will occasionaly occur. Non-ped racing is a power sport, the myostatin gene affects the amount and composition of muscle fibres and for those dogs with the mh/mh genotype, they're muscle composition is exagerated. Bully's tend not to get fat and generally the more they're fed the bigger their muscles get. Personally I think the now famous black bully has just been well over fed as it certainly isn't an accurate representation of a bully whip but then I suppose a normal one wouldn't get the media's attention so much. For the record, dogs with big muscles can be prone to cramping if not well looked after and if I owned that particular dog, I'd be doing my best to keep it very lean.

I've met a couple of bullys and talked to a lot of people who have owned / bred them, they don't have any other genetic defects that predisposes them to illness but they do have a highly desirable character being extraordinarily friendly and happy. Personally, I can't see bully's taking off as a 'new breed' as they're a anamoly within a different breeding agenda but I doubt that they would carry some of the far more undesirable defects of other dog breeds.

P.s. Also available in red fawn and white particolour.

 

[Seraphina]

have to say that the idea that somebody may try to breed them, or even use them to create a new breed really puts my hackles up.  :rant:

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Non-ped racers certainly don't deliberately try to breed them but they will occasionaly occur.

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Unfortunately, there was a post by somebody who would like to create a breed based on myostatin gene mutation. There have also been posts by people, saying they want bully whippet just like Wendy.

I've met a couple of bullys and talked to a lot of people who have owned / bred them, they don't have any other genetic defects that predisposes them to illness but I doubt that they would carry some of the far more undesirable defects of other dog breeds.

Dog that has all its organs, including heart, normal Whippet size and ends up double the weight is very likely to put considerable stress on all its organs. If somebody was to breed say rottweiler, mastiff etc crosses with 2 of the myostatin mutated genes, it would result in an animal so heavy, I would be concerned how its bones would cope, especially as these breeds have already issues with hip dysplasia. Imagine the difference between ordinary average Whippet and Wendy, then think of ordinary rottie and double muscled one. :wacko:

 

[Seraphina]

P.s. Also available in red fawn and white particolour.

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We were not suggesting otherwise I am sure colour has nothing to do with it.

Anyway, there are no myostanin deficient whippets known to occur in Australia :thumbsup:

What happened to the link to the article?

anyway here it is again, and if you go to the bottom of the page you see people's comments, including one hoping somebody will breed them;

Daily Mail

 

[seaspot_run]

No, Bullies come in all colours as far as I am aware. I don't think the gene is linked to colour at all. You only find it in non-ped whippets in this country.

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Of course that's where it's found.

However, venture to suggest this anywhere else and you'll get reamed one or two new orifices.

I don't think anyone on the K9 Whippet Showing board needs to be particularly worried about this gene.

As for the USA, I think that EVERY Whippet should be tested for carrier status for the GOOD of the BREED.

That being said, I know of no instances in the USA of a Bully Whippet in lines which do not go back to controversial pedigrees top and bottom.

Time will tell. And if time tells, I'm happy to admit my initial impression was incorrect.

But I'm with the Brits so far on this one. It's a non-ped racing bloodline issue.

So, I don't think it's anything you need to concern yourselves with for now. If it turns out that there are documented instances of pedigrees that do not go back to controversial racing lines imported from the UK, then I'll eat my hat and grovel to the appropriate parties.

Karen Lee

 

[Seraphina]

I don't think anyone on the K9 Whippet Showing board needs to be particularly worried about this gene.
As for the USA, I think that EVERY Whippet should be tested for carrier status for the GOOD of the BREED.

That being said, I know of no instances in the USA of a Bully Whippet in lines which do not go back to controversial pedigrees top and bottom.

So, I don't think it's anything you need to concern yourselves with for now.  If it turns out that there are documented instances of pedigrees that do not go back to controversial racing lines imported from the UK, then I'll eat my hat and grovel to the appropriate parties.

Karen Lee

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As we do not know the lines from which Wendy comes (the newspaper does say she is pedigree Whippet), and I would not expect anybody to tell us in hurry, it is only natural that we may wonder if this gene could be present in some future imports. It would only take one dog to create a problem here in OZ or in the UK.

It is still possibility that a mutation occurred in the pedigree line.

 

[satiny]

In september 2006, Jen Jensen started this topic on K9 :

http://www.k9community.co.uk/forums/index....double+muscling

I also got my monthly official newsletter of the american whippet club : the whippet news. There was an article by Jen Jensen : about the Ostrander Study.

If one is really intrested in the "myostatin mutation", than take contant with Jen, on K9 : Jensen

The whippet Myostatin Project : 9 persons (2 from europe, germany!) are working on this project,one of the is Jen.

 

[seaspot_run]

So, I don't think it's anything you need to concern yourselves with for now.  If it turns out that there are documented instances of pedigrees that do not go back to controversial racing lines imported from the UK, then I'll eat my hat and grovel to the appropriate parties.

Karen Lee

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As we do not know the lines from which Wendy comes (the newspaper does say she is pedigree Whippet), and I would not expect anybody to tell us in hurry, it is only natural that we may wonder if this gene could be present in some future imports. It would only take one dog to create a problem here in OZ or in the UK.

It is still possibility that a mutation occurred in the pedigree line.

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This is true. It may have started in a pedigree line. But if it did, one would think that there would be examples of this mutation within the pedigree racing gene pool here on K9, and from what I've read, there aren't any so far. This doesn't mean that it COULDN'T have happened. It's just that right now, it doesn't look as likely.

To newspaper types, a "pedigree" Whippet may very well be any Whippet which has a pedigree. All non-pedigree Whippets have pedigrees. Pedigree means different things to different listeners. Here in the USA, all the Whippets we have who race in all our programs are considered pedigree Whippets. The UK pedigree organization might not agree in all cases that this is so. Some of the dogs who race here would be very shocking to a UK pedigree race person. We have 50-55 lb dogs racing over here, and they make it under a 22 1/2" wicket and they would also be considered pedigree Whippets in the USA.

So, all USA racing Whippets have AKC or CKC registration numbers and are considered pedigree, purebred Whippets for the purposes of the Bully study The other thing is that I took part in this study and I remember the questionnaire we did on each dog. In order to be a data point in this study of the study pool that was focused upon in the research article, the dog had to have a grade in WRA, our largest and most geographically widespread Whippet racing organization. My dogs all qualified on that count. Then, they asked what else the dog did, and if it was also a show dog. Well, much has been made of the fact that one carrier was also ID'ed as a show dog, but here in the USA, a show dog is a dog who has been shown in dog shows and wasn't disqualified. There are a few dogs bred really primarily or entirely for racing which have been close enough to the breed standard to finish in the US ring, and any of these would have been considered "show dogs" for the purpose of this study. Just because a dog has been shown, or even shown with some success over here, doesn't make it a showBRED dog. My dogs race and some of them race respectably, but I would not call them or tag them or identify them as "racebreds" because they are not that, they are showbred dogs who race. There are also racebred dogs who show. And then there are a few lines which have racing and show dogs in each generation and those could be considered truly "dual", and there is a growing number of dogs who are American show lines crossed with import-based top racing pedigrees. It is possible the gene will enter the wider show gene pool in the USA through that portal, but only if those half/half dogs or their progeny/get are successful at showing.

I've been pretty plugged in as a show breeder over here for going on three decades, and know many of the oldtimers. If one of these bullies had ever shown up in a US showbred line, I think I'd have heard about it (given the efficiency of the show world gossip tree, I think everyone would have...) It's cropped up fairly recently as a talked-about concern within the racing fraternity over here, although I believe I saw one back in the 1980's. No doubt they're keeping better track of pedigrees of affected dogs and the picture should become fairly clear. If it's really a mutation, then it probably had a single focal point. Doesn't that make sense? What are the chances that the same mutation would have arisen in several different, unrelated dogs?

If pedigrees are accurate then they can probably eventually trace the mutation back to a single dog or bitch. If there are instances of this mutation in the UK among non-pedigree racers (and your K9 Boards have established this is so), then it is unlikely that the mutation happened in the USA, because there hasn't been much (any?) importing of US dogs back into the UK to race and be used for breeding in the UK non-pedigree lines. So, right now, it looks o to me o like this mutation happened at some point in an English racer or a dog who was used in some successful English racing lines, but did not leave descendants in English show or coursing lines, and apparently o , not a contributer to English pedigree racing lines if what I've read here on K9 is accurate. Are those enough disclaimers and weasel words?

I'm sorry. I get interested in this stuff. I'm speculating out loud about the gene itself, not naming names.

But by all means, once the test is commercially-available, let's test everything and put the matter to rest once and for all where the mutation is to be found, and likely, from whence it came. You are correct it is all speculation. That's why I said "I don't think anyone on the K9 Whippet Showing board needs to be particularly worried about this gene", instead of "I know for a FACT that...blah blah blah". Everyone speculates. There are people on this thread who say it's because of crosses to bull terriers and that's speculation, too.

I like the racing system in the UK, btw. I think it allows people who want to breed for the fastest Whippet-type dog to do that, and people who want to try to breed for the fastest Whippet who only has Whippet in the pedigree going back to pre-1920's to do that as well. We should have that in the USA from the get-go and we'd have been spared a lot of angst. I have no problem with the notion of non-pedigree racing. I respect the honesty of the UK breeders who are here on K9 discussing non-pedigree racing and bloodlines.

As for the Bully study, I take my hat off to those people. :thumbsup: If more of the show world would work cooperatively like that, a lot more defects could be identified and tested for. It's a shining example of what can be achieved when people work together instead of freaking out over something when a few people are honest enough to say they're encountering a problem in some of their litters. :cheers:

The Bullies do seem real sweet. I saw one a few weeks ago. I'm sure they make nice pets. I don't see anyone breeding for this mutation specifically, but if one copy gives a speed advantage, I don't see people trying to eliminate it altogether, either. I think this gene has been present in the USA for a couple of decades now and has been carried by some of the top dogs which made them very consistent producers of speedy get.

I have had all my Whippets tested already, incidentally, because I provided samples to the study. I KNOW for a FACT they are not carriers because they all fall in the grade that the researchers said contained zero instances of Bully genes. Hopefully all the race Whippets in the USA, no matter what the organization, will be tested. As for the US show people who are ONLY working with show lines, I'd be surprised if many of them want to pay for this test, because although publicly, few of them have much interest in discussing it beyond the "geez, would you LOOK at THAT" :blink: aspect of the news coverage, privately NONE of them consider it to be a gene that exists at all in the pedigree show Whippet stocks unless they've been crossed fairly recently with racing lines. And until a bully shows up in one of those lines, I would imagine that's where opinion on this one will stay, whether people want to say it publicly or not. o

And it would be interesting to trace this mutation to a single dog or bitch. That would sure save a lot of money for folks who are working with pedigrees that do not go back to that dog or bitch because there'd be no reason to pay for the test on all their adults and puppies.

I guess if you're worried about imports bringing it in, there's a test and you can have something tested for the gene before purchasing or using it in a breeding program.

 

[TC]

:sweating: Very interesting and informative post, thank you :thumbsup:

I have just been catching up on the USA feeling on a couple of boards, and so I really enjoyed reading your take on it.

 

[seaspot_run]

:sweating: Very interesting and informative post, thank you  :thumbsup:
I have just been catching up on the USA feeling on a couple of boards, and so I really enjoyed reading your take on it.

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It's just one person's opinion. But I do have a strong science background, and I'm fascinated with this stuff.

I agree with many of our North American racing fraternity that it's not yet possible to make hard-and-fast assessments until a lot more dogs have been tested. Hopefully, many or most of us over here will test our dogs, but I think it's going to be rough sledding to get most of the show people to pony up for this test.

Karen

 

[TC]

:sweating: Very interesting and informative post, thank you  :thumbsup:
I have just been catching up on the USA feeling on a couple of boards, and so I really enjoyed reading your take on it.

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It's just one person's opinion. But I do have a strong science background, and I'm fascinated with this stuff.

I agree with many of our North American racing fraternity that it's not yet possible to make hard-and-fast assessments until a lot more dogs have been tested. Hopefully, many or most of us over here will test our dogs, but I think it's going to be rough sledding to get most of the show people to pony up for this test.

Karen

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Honestly not wanting to spark any more controversy than there already is (hence why I have not posted on the USA board in question) I was quite shocked to read that there seem to be some breeder of the opinion that it may be beneficial to breed on further with this gene to maintain the speed that may come from the mutation.

This concerns me for two reasons..

1. Ethically this must be wrong i.e to knowingly carry forward a 'defect' with detriment to the breed.

2. From what I have read (and I do not profess to have read an immense amount on this subject) it seem that the additional/double muscling often leads to severe cramping as well a other side effects.

I am finding it hard to come to terms with the fact that breeders are contemplating continuing down this route (seemingly without thought to the individual dogs and to the breed as a whole's welfare) in the name of winning.

I suppose all the time I was under the impression that these were isolated cases I maybe felt slightly better about things.

TCx

 

[seaspot_run]

:sweating: Very interesting and informative post, thank you  :thumbsup:
I have just been catching up on the USA feeling on a couple of boards, and so I really enjoyed reading your take on it.

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​

It's just one person's opinion. But I do have a strong science background, and I'm fascinated with this stuff.

I agree with many of our North American racing fraternity that it's not yet possible to make hard-and-fast assessments until a lot more dogs have been tested. Hopefully, many or most of us over here will test our dogs, but I think it's going to be rough sledding to get most of the show people to pony up for this test.

Karen

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Honestly not wanting to spark any more controversy than there already is (hence why I have not posted on the USA board in question) I was quite shocked to read that there seem to be some breeder of the opinion that it may be beneficial to breed on further with this gene to maintain the speed that may come from the mutation.

This concerns me for two reasons..

1. Ethically this must be wrong i.e to knowingly carry forward a 'defect' with detriment to the breed.

2. From what I have read (and I do not profess to have read an immense amount on this subject) it seem that the additional/double muscling often leads to severe cramping as well a other side effects.

I am finding it hard to come to terms with the fact that breeders are contemplating continuing down this route (seemingly without thought to the individual dogs and to the breed as a whole's welfare) in the name of winning.

I suppose all the time I was under the impression that these were isolated cases I maybe felt slightly better about things.

TCx

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I want to clarify something I said much earlier on this thread. Sometimes, when I post here, I forget that there are a lot of people who aren't in the UK who read posts.

When I said "But I'm with the Brits so far on this one. It's a non-ped racing bloodline issue." in my first post on this thread, I was meaning in the UK.

I think it's a non-pedigree racing line issue for UK breeders, who will do as they will with this new knowledge, I guess.

Here in the USA and Canada, it's a pedigree issue as all racers in the USA and Canada are considered pedigree racers by their organizations and the AKC and CKC.

The dogs who possess a double copy of the myostatin mutation do have health concerns that those who possess no copies or one copy do not possess. So, I agree it is unethical, given the tool that now exists (or will shortly, when the test becomes commercial available) to breed dogs together who will result in affected bullies, no matter how sweet they may be.

However, with one copy of the gene only, I think you get into murkier ethical territory.

There are other examples of "lethal" genes in other breeds that are deliberately bred on because one copy is desirable. An example of this is blue merle in Shelties and collies. In duplicate, the Merle gene causes blindness and deafness. One copy gives you a beautiful merle coloration which is loved and popular with many. If you simply know how to work with merle lines, you need never produce an affected, but you can breed Merle collies or Shelties, making your merle-loving buyers very happy.

I can see the case for perpetuating this gene as a single-gene on the part of racing people. If the goal is to produce the fastest dog, and that's a way to do it, then why not use it? It's not like dogs with myostatin mutations may not have already rewritten the record books. Do we take their titles away?

It's not something I would choose to do, but I don't see the absolute moral or ethical difference between that and breeding merles.

Karen Lee

 

[TC]

:sweating: Very interesting and informative post, thank you  :thumbsup:
I have just been catching up on the USA feeling on a couple of boards, and so I really enjoyed reading your take on it.

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​

It's just one person's opinion. But I do have a strong science background, and I'm fascinated with this stuff.

I agree with many of our North American racing fraternity that it's not yet possible to make hard-and-fast assessments until a lot more dogs have been tested. Hopefully, many or most of us over here will test our dogs, but I think it's going to be rough sledding to get most of the show people to pony up for this test.

Karen

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​

Honestly not wanting to spark any more controversy than there already is (hence why I have not posted on the USA board in question) I was quite shocked to read that there seem to be some breeder of the opinion that it may be beneficial to breed on further with this gene to maintain the speed that may come from the mutation.

This concerns me for two reasons..

1. Ethically this must be wrong i.e to knowingly carry forward a 'defect' with detriment to the breed.

2. From what I have read (and I do not profess to have read an immense amount on this subject) it seem that the additional/double muscling often leads to severe cramping as well a other side effects.

I am finding it hard to come to terms with the fact that breeders are contemplating continuing down this route (seemingly without thought to the individual dogs and to the breed as a whole's welfare) in the name of winning.

I suppose all the time I was under the impression that these were isolated cases I maybe felt slightly better about things.

TCx

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​

I want to clarify something I said much earlier on this thread. Sometimes, when I post here, I forget that there are a lot of people who aren't in the UK who read posts.

When I said "But I'm with the Brits so far on this one. It's a non-ped racing bloodline issue." in my first post on this thread, I was meaning in the UK.

I think it's a non-pedigree racing line issue for UK breeders, who will do as they will with this new knowledge, I guess.

Here in the USA and Canada, it's a pedigree issue as all racers in the USA and Canada are considered pedigree racers by their organizations and the AKC and CKC.

The dogs who possess a double copy of the myostatin mutation do have health concerns that those who possess no copies or one copy do not possess. So, I agree it is unethical, given the tool that now exists (or will shortly, when the test becomes commercial available) to breed dogs together who will result in affected bullies, no matter how sweet they may be.

However, with one copy of the gene only, I think you get into murkier ethical territory.

There are other examples of "lethal" genes in other breeds that are deliberately bred on because one copy is desirable. An example of this is blue merle in Shelties and collies. In duplicate, the Merle gene causes blindness and deafness. One copy gives you a beautiful merle coloration which is loved and popular with many. If you simply know how to work with merle lines, you need never produce an affected, but you can breed Merle collies or Shelties, making your merle-loving buyers very happy.

I can see the case for perpetuating this gene as a single-gene on the part of racing people. If the goal is to produce the fastest dog, and that's a way to do it, then why not use it? It's not like dogs with myostatin mutations may not have already rewritten the record books. Do we take their titles away?

It's not something I would choose to do, but I don't see the absolute moral or ethical difference between that and breeding merles.

Karen Lee

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Hmmmn, I see your point about dogs that may have already been racing and rewriting the record books. I suppose because I race for fun (and because my dog absolutely loves it :wacko: ) I just need to look at this objectively. I'm not caught up in the major winning so hadn't thought about it that way.

Unfortunately, I think the point you made about the Merles is sadly true I just wouldn't want to be involved in either.

I am wondering if the test will come off here as well?

TCx

 

[seaspot_run]

I think it's supposed to be offered by a single lab in the US, but it can be tested for with a cheek swab, which ships quite well, and so I don't see any reason why UK breeders couldn't ship their own samples to that lab and get their dogs tested if they want to.

The UK non-pedigree racing people seem to do a good job of regulating their own sport. It will be interesting to watch where they go with this.

It didn't work out terribly well, ultimately, to have our parent club (the American Whippet Club) administering our purebred Whippet racing program. I think each group will decide how they want to deal with this new information. If you're a participant, and have an opinion, the time will no doubt come to voice your opinion.

 

[Macha]

I saw a message on this thread from someone who blamed the "bully" whippets on crossbreeding with Staffies. Well, I've read the articles and the researchers have tested some typical Staffies and other bulldog/bull terrier type breeds; they didn't find the mutated gene in these breeds. So probably the mutation occured randomly in whippets and has been perpetuated because dogs who carry just one copy of the gene (not the full pair of "bully" genes) are fast and muscular without being really abnormal so they win races and are bred from.

 

[seaspot_run]

I saw a message on this thread from someone who blamed the "bully" whippets on crossbreeding with Staffies. Well, I've read the articles and the researchers have tested some typical Staffies and other bulldog/bull terrier type breeds; they didn't find the mutated gene in these breeds. So probably the mutation occured randomly in whippets and has been perpetuated because dogs who carry just one copy of the gene (not the full pair of "bully" genes) are fast and muscular without being really abnormal so they win races and are bred from.

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I agree with you that the gene isn't probably the result of a Staffie cross, however, it would only take ONE staffie and if you're not testing a LOT of Staffies across all lineages that might have been used for crossing, you can't rule it out absolutely based on having tested a "few" Staffies.

But if it were in Staffies, one would think the Staffie people would know about it.

A Staffie which was also a "Bully" would certainly be an interesting-looking dog.

 

[Seraphina]

If it's really a mutation, then it probably had a single focal point. Doesn't that make sense? What are the chances that the same mutation would have arisen in several different, unrelated dogs?

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As far as I can establish in this moment the Whippet is the only breed with this gene. So it could not have been introduced to the breed from another breed. Staffies and other heavy breeds have lot of muscle, but they do not lack myostatin. If Staffy or mastiff is a massive dog with 2 normal myostatin genes, any lack of of myostatin would cause such muscle development that the poor dog would be unlikely able to move.

As far as i am concerned, it had to start by mutation. As it has been known in the UK non-ped racing lines for quite a sometime, the mutation must have occurred many tears ago. And most likely then then found its way to the US lines. But I like to keep my mind open to other possibilities. What I wondered if it is possible another mutation to occur in the US. This may sound very improbable, but what if this gene in Whippet has some weakness? Isn't it possible that it is predisposed to this mutation? That could reduce the odds of spontaneous mutation occurring again.

To newspaper types, a "pedigree" Whippet may very well be any Whippet which has a pedigree.

Of course, we need to take everything we read in newspapers with pinch of salt. But in this moment this is all we've got. Besides, the scientific study, which does only deal with cool hard facts as they are in this moment. The thing is I have heard mentioned pedigree bully whippet in France or/and Switzerland, that supposedly comes from US lines. I have contacted my friends in Europe and so far did not find anybody who heard about this dog/s.

I guess if you're worried about imports bringing it in, there's a test and you can have something tested for the gene before purchasing or using it in a breeding program.

We are so far from everywhere it is very difficult to bring a dog in, so when one does arrive, he is widely used at stud. Then his progeny is line bred. Considering that, if there was the faulty myostatin gene in any of our US lines, it would have become apparent. Therefore i am not particularly concerned about those present in this moment carrying it. But that does not mean we should not be careful.

 

[masta]

http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=109f04cc...&fg=>1=10150

wendy vid skip the ad at start