Undescended Testicle....

[dessie]

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I personally think it's the dog or bitch owners choice(shoot me now)
What I'm interested in is this, if it's necessary to remove one testicle why would you not want to remove the other :unsure:   after all it would not be the done thing to breed from a monorchid dog according to all the threads about it, so why leave a dog with one,just curious this is a genuine question

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But people do, unfortunately. :rant: I think you will find that most larger Veterinary practices will operate under a code of ethics issued by the RVC and it would be deemed unethical to remove only one testicle from a cryptorchid for genetic rationale but I am sure there are one-man band Vets up and down the country who would be willing to perform this kind of surgery or even corrective surgery .......... which IMO is even worse!!!

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Sorry I don't understand why it's wrong to have the retained testicle removed and the other one left. There are good reasons why a racing dog should have this kind of surgery done.

The retained testicle removed if it effects it's track performance.

Otherwise leave the descended testicle as the testosterone aids in healing. Some racers and vets also believe that castration decreases speed.

I'm afraid that I will never understand this idea that non castrated dogs will automatically be used for breeding. An operated on cryptorchid is even less likely to be bred from than an entire dog IMO.

But, if such a dog performs well and people want to use dogs that have a good track record, won't that encourage them to use the dog regardless of the fact that it is actually a cryptorchid?? Maybe I am misunderstanding the situation but I thought that was a bone of contention?

What I don't understand is why so many people on here have cryptorchid show bred whippets. After all the males have to be entire in order to succeed in the ring, so I would have thought that they would be the stud dogs being used. Shouldn't the problem be less common than it appears to be from the posters on here?

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Because, (at the risk of repeatedly repeating myself!!) people ARE having corrective surgery carried out in order to be able to show these dogs and then breeding from them. The other problem being that you can buy an 'entire' puppy, use it at stud and wonder why it is producing non-entire puppies, then subsequently find out that it had a litter brother that was a cryptorchid. Thus you can be unwittingly perpetuating the problem.

To my mind, both scenarios (whether you blatantly use a cryptorchid dog because it is 'fast' or unknowingly use a 'fixed' cryptorchid showdog) are equally unacceptable and should be of far higher priority in trying to remedy than, for instance, these 'bully' Whippets.

 

[JAX]

It seems to me that the responsible people who would `consider `having their animals S/N are most likely the ones who wouldnt let their animals breed willy nilly anyway :- " . and those who let their dogs roam and have no regard for others are the ones who can t be bothered to have them spayed / neutered in the first place . 8)

Im anti spaying / neutering just for convience .

As regards the one testes undecended , I know someone whose has had many who have lived to a rip old age with no problems at all :cheers:

 

[chelynnah]

It is insane and, as I said on another thread, unethical and tantamount to fraud or cheating, if you like.  People are putting dogs (not just Whippets, other breeds as well) through corrective surgery (testicles, teeth, eyes, hernias etc), not for medical reasons but to be able to show them and, in a lot of cases, use them for stud/breeding (which is even worse) but not be honest & open with the people who either use the dog at stud/buy puppies.  It makes me extremely angry and I certainly do not find it a matter to be laughed about.

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Because, (at the risk of repeatedly repeating myself!!) people ARE having corrective surgery carried out in order to be able to show these dogs and then breeding from them.  The other problem being that you can buy an 'entire' puppy, use it at stud and wonder why it is producing non-entire puppies, then subsequently find out that it had a litter brother that was a cryptorchid.  Thus you can be unwittingly perpetuating the problem.
To my mind, both scenarios (whether you blatantly use a cryptorchid dog because it is 'fast' or unknowingly use a 'fixed' cryptorchid showdog) are equally unacceptable and should be of far higher priority in trying to remedy than, for instance, these 'bully' Whippets.

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Interestingly we've recently had a discussion of monorchid/cryptorchid inheritence on my breeding list so this is quite timely. I see people getting upset about the use or potential use of the DOGS that are produced by these monorchid sires (either wittingly or unwittingly), but what about the bitches that result from those litters? Even though monorchidism shows up only in dogs (for obvious reasons) it's passed on through BOTH dogs and bitches.

I agree that we need more openness, and that someone who has a dog who comes from lines that have produced this should think long and hard before breeding (and a dog that IS monorchid should never be bred from), but what about the bitches from those breedings? I think it's potentially EQUALLY as unethical to breed from those too? It's easy to focus on the dogs as they have a visible defect, but the bitches are equal carriers...

Just something to think about.

Wendy

 

[urchin]

Ok, here's my reason for wanting only Dij's retained testicle removing (and leaving the other one THEHELLALONE)

the hormonal system is complicated and delicately balanced - testosterone does a lot more than just affect mating and aggressive behaviour.... it also interacts in subtle ways with all of the other hormones that he has, which regulate just about everything about him.

So, castrating him completely will have major efects on his system that I am not prepared to inflict on him. Despite the fact that I will never breed from him, I believe this is a perfectly valid reason to keep the one good one he has.

If the operation in question were a vasectomy I would have no problem with it whatsoever - but this is not a trifling little matter (at least not where his body is concerned)

I feel the same about spaying - it isn't a case of tying tubes, its a radical hysterectomy (with all the associated hormonal effects) .... having had friends who have had hysterectomies for medical reasons, and reported the pretty devastating effects on their bodies (and emotions!) ....I wouldn't put a bitch through this major surgery either unless she has some life threatening condition

Free the Digit One!

 

[Happy Humber]

I think it would be almost impossible to find any line in whips that has not produced undesended testicles at some time or other.

I had a friend who passed away in her eighties over 10 yrs ago now who was a great friend of Molly Garrish of the Fleeting Whippets and showed with Molly for donkeys years and she told me there were problems back in the thirties.

 

[dessie]

It is insane and, as I said on another thread, unethical and tantamount to fraud or cheating, if you like.  People are putting dogs (not just Whippets, other breeds as well) through corrective surgery (testicles, teeth, eyes, hernias etc), not for medical reasons but to be able to show them and, in a lot of cases, use them for stud/breeding (which is even worse) but not be honest & open with the people who either use the dog at stud/buy puppies.  It makes me extremely angry and I certainly do not find it a matter to be laughed about.

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Because, (at the risk of repeatedly repeating myself!!) people ARE having corrective surgery carried out in order to be able to show these dogs and then breeding from them.  The other problem being that you can buy an 'entire' puppy, use it at stud and wonder why it is producing non-entire puppies, then subsequently find out that it had a litter brother that was a cryptorchid.  Thus you can be unwittingly perpetuating the problem.
To my mind, both scenarios (whether you blatantly use a cryptorchid dog because it is 'fast' or unknowingly use a 'fixed' cryptorchid showdog) are equally unacceptable and should be of far higher priority in trying to remedy than, for instance, these 'bully' Whippets.

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Interestingly we've recently had a discussion of monorchid/cryptorchid inheritence on my breeding list so this is quite timely. I see people getting upset about the use or potential use of the DOGS that are produced by these monorchid sires (either wittingly or unwittingly), but what about the bitches that result from those litters? Even though monorchidism shows up only in dogs (for obvious reasons) it's passed on through BOTH dogs and bitches.

I agree that we need more openness, and that someone who has a dog who comes from lines that have produced this should think long and hard before breeding (and a dog that IS monorchid should never be bred from), but what about the bitches from those breedings? I think it's potentially EQUALLY as unethical to breed from those too? It's easy to focus on the dogs as they have a visible defect, but the bitches are equal carriers...

Just something to think about.

Wendy

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Yes, I have thought about this too. But it must be remembered that a dog has the potential to sire many, many more puppies than a bitch is likely to produce. The answer, I think, is to test mate a bitch 'in-house' as it were. If the resulting puppies are entire, all well and good. If they are not then I would take the bitch out of the breeding programme and any resulting puppies sold to pet homes only (with the new owners told of the problem). My friend and I have actually done this with a bitch puppy she bred (a litter of 3, neither of the 2 dogs were entire) and the bitch in question went on to produce a litter with 5 entire dogs in it (the dog used on her himself came from a litter of 7 puppies, 2 bitches & 5 dogs all entire). So it does not necessarily follow that the bitch is a carrier but equal thought and research should be made into the dog used. This is where it is important that people are honest when asked a question which, unfortunately, a lot aren't.

 

[saraquele]

sorry if i appear a bit thick and apologise if this has already been asked :teehee: but is there 100% medical evidence that retained testicles are hereditary ?

 

[Seraphina]

sorry if i appear a bit thick and apologise if this has already been asked  :teehee:   but is there 100% medical evidence that retained testicles are hereditary ?

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It certainly seems to be running in families, but as far as i know the inheritance is not understood. To start with there seem to be several different causes of this problem. There are small testicles or too loose rings, which allow the testicles to go up and down, there are short cords preventing the testicle to descend, and there are some hormonal reasons why is this happening. Some suggest that this is passed down on the Y chromosome, which is only present in the male and therefore sister of a cryptorchid dog cannot carry it.

The only concrete fact is that it is a very wide spread problem in Whippets everywhere in the world.

 

[Seraphina]

Ok, here's my reason for wanting only Dij's retained testicle removing (and leaving the other one THEHELLALONE)
the hormonal system is complicated and delicately balanced - testosterone does a lot more than just affect mating and aggressive behaviour.... it also interacts in subtle ways with all of the other hormones that he has, which regulate just about everything about him.

So, castrating him completely will have major efects on his system that I am not prepared to inflict on him. Despite the fact that I will never breed from him, I believe this is a perfectly valid reason to keep the one good one he has.

If the operation in question were a vasectomy I would have no problem with it whatsoever - but this is not a trifling little matter (at least not where his body is concerned)

I feel the same about spaying - it isn't a case of tying tubes, its a radical hysterectomy (with all the associated hormonal effects) .... having had friends who have had hysterectomies for medical reasons, and reported the pretty devastating effects on their bodies (and emotions!) ....I wouldn't put a bitch through this major surgery either unless she has some life threatening condition

Free the Digit One!

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ABSOLUTELY, there is a miriad of subtle, and some not so subtle, changes in desexed animal's body and as far as I am concerned none positive.

Pleae read this article;

spay/neuter

 

[saraquele]

sorry if i appear a bit thick and apologise if this has already been asked  :teehee:    but is there 100% medical evidence that retained testicles are hereditary ?

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It certainly seems to be running in families, but as far as i know the inheritance is not understood. To start with there seem to be several different causes of this problem. There are small testicles or too loose rings, which allow the testicles to go up and down, there are short cords preventing the testicle to descend, and there are some hormonal reasons why is this happening. Some suggest that this is passed down on the Y chromosome, which is only present in the male and therefore sister of a cryptorchid dog cannot carry it.

The only concrete fact is that it is a very wide spread problem in Whippets everywhere in the world.

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thank you , :thumbsup:

i know its a big problem and i was just curiouse as to if it was a proven fact its hereditary .

i agree a dog with only 1 testicle should not be bred from or operated on to have it "brought down" to fool people but im sitting on the fence as to not using any of the line for breeding ever again .

 

[stephen mason]

Just want to make sure I understand. Is the recommendation being made that all members of a litter ( bitches as well as dogs) should not be used for breeding should the litter include one male with undescended testicles?. Seems the only way to eradicate the problem or is it. ? Stephen

 

[dessie]

sorry if i appear a bit thick and apologise if this has already been asked  :teehee:    but is there 100% medical evidence that retained testicles are hereditary ?

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It certainly seems to be running in families, but as far as i know the inheritance is not understood. To start with there seem to be several different causes of this problem. There are small testicles or too loose rings, which allow the testicles to go up and down, there are short cords preventing the testicle to descend, and there are some hormonal reasons why is this happening. Some suggest that this is passed down on the Y chromosome, which is only present in the male and therefore sister of a cryptorchid dog cannot carry it.

The only concrete fact is that it is a very wide spread problem in Whippets everywhere in the world.

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It is widespread in any breed of dog and mongrels alike .............. ask any Vet.

 

[urchin]

Ok, here's my reason for wanting only Dij's retained testicle removing (and leaving the other one THEHELLALONE)
the hormonal system is complicated and delicately balanced - testosterone does a lot more than just affect mating and aggressive behaviour.... it also interacts in subtle ways with all of the other hormones that he has, which regulate just about everything about him.

So, castrating him completely will have major efects on his system that I am not prepared to inflict on him. Despite the fact that I will never breed from him, I believe this is a perfectly valid reason to keep the one good one he has.

If the operation in question were a vasectomy I would have no problem with it whatsoever - but this is not a trifling little matter (at least not where his body is concerned)

I feel the same about spaying - it isn't a case of tying tubes, its a radical hysterectomy (with all the associated hormonal effects) .... having had friends who have had hysterectomies for medical reasons, and reported the pretty devastating effects on their bodies (and emotions!) ....I wouldn't put a bitch through this major surgery either unless she has some life threatening condition

Free the Digit One!

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ABSOLUTELY, there is a miriad of subtle, and some not so subtle, changes in desexed animal's body and as far as I am concerned none positive.

Pleae read this article;

spay/neuter

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I am so glad I'm not on my own on this one! I get tired of explaining my reasons to people, only for none of it to register at all.........am sure people go away still thinking there's absolutely no reason not to take both away (or suspecting that i sneakily intend to breed from him)

I have been told more than once how irresponsible I am, which really stings as it is because of my concern for Digit's welfare that I am NOT haveing him castrated - it's certainly not to make life easier for me.

It is very good to have some specific studies to back up my beliefs Seraphina.......the studies cited also explain Bloggs' excessive humping behaviour! He was castrated young, by previous owners, and i'd always assumed that this would mean he wouldn't know what his tackle was for (as it were!) - but he humps his bed almost manically virtually all of the time! :teehee:

 

[chelynnah]

Just want to make sure I understand. Is the recommendation being made that all members of a litter ( bitches as well as dogs) should not be used for breeding should the litter include one male with undescended testicles?. Seems the only way to eradicate the problem or is it. ? Stephen

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No - that's not what my post was saying. As Seraphina has said there are no concrete answers yet, but there are definitely some lines that do carry it and sometimes it just happens as a fluke. If it were me I wouldn't personally worry too much if a single dog from a litter ended up only having one, knowing that in the lines it was rare. However knowing that in the lines it was common, then I would try to breed away from those lines (both dogs and bitches).

Wendy

 

[dessie]

Just want to make sure I understand. Is the recommendation being made that all members of a litter ( bitches as well as dogs) should not be used for breeding should the litter include one male with undescended testicles?. Seems the only way to eradicate the problem or is it. ? Stephen

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I don't know about a 'recommendation' but it is one solution although a very drastic one and I think geneticists would agree perhaps not the way to go.

I was only answering Wendy's (chelynnah) question about whether to breed from a bitch out of a litter where some/all dogs were not entire and saying what I had personal experience of.

As I said a popular stud dog has the potential to sire many, many more puppies than can ever be produced by a single bitch and often her progeny will either not be bred from or maybe only one or two. Therefore a dog could probably have far more impact in perputating a congenital problem within a breed, IMO. What is required is much more frankness and when the approach is made to use a stud dog, the prospective bitch owner is told if the dog has either sired puppies who were not entire or had siblings who were not entire so that the bitch owner can at least then make an informed decision.

I know it is difficult for people who only keep maybe one or two dogs at a time but, unfortunately, it is what keeping livestock is all about and sometimes you have to make difficult decisions or weigh up the consequences and do it anyway. My gripe is when it is all done in a underhand way.

 

[beaker]

would it not be possible to have a retained testicle removed, leave the normal one in place so the hormone levels would remain unaffected and vasectamise the dog to prevent breeding (accidental or otherwise) ?

 

[urchin]

would it not be possible to have a retained testicle removed, leave the normal one in place so the hormone levels would remain unaffected and vasectamise the dog to prevent breeding (accidental or otherwise) ?

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In theory beaker, you'd certainly think so wouldn't you? particularly as the dog in question is already 'opened up' .... but not many vets seem to have experience vasectomising dogs - if more of us ask though, more of them will get experienced :thumbsup:

Its certainly a conversation i plan to have with my vet

 

[dessie]

would it not be possible to have a retained testicle removed, leave the normal one in place so the hormone levels would remain unaffected and vasectamise the dog to prevent breeding (accidental or otherwise) ?

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In theory beaker, you'd certainly think so wouldn't you? particularly as the dog in question is already 'opened up' .... but not many vets seem to have experience vasectomising dogs - if more of us ask though, more of them will get experienced :thumbsup:

Its certainly a conversation i plan to have with my vet

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My Vet will not vasectomise dogs and most certainly would not leave one testicle. If I was you Urchin I would just leave things as they are if you do not want to have him castrated.

 

[Trish]

would it not be possible to have a retained testicle removed, leave the normal one in place so the hormone levels would remain unaffected and vasectamise the dog to prevent breeding (accidental or otherwise) ?

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In theory beaker, you'd certainly think so wouldn't you? particularly as the dog in question is already 'opened up' .... but not many vets seem to have experience vasectomising dogs - if more of us ask though, more of them will get experienced :thumbsup:

Its certainly a conversation i plan to have with my vet

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My Vet will not vasectomise dogs and most certainly would not leave one testicle. If I was you Urchin I would just leave things as they are if you do not want to have him castrated.

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im leaving my boys as they are,if a problem arises then fair enough it would need addressing,but they are fine as they are :thumbsup:

 

[urchin]

That's what i don't understand Dessie! what medical reason is there to not vasectomise* a dog? and for that reason, to leave a perfectly healthy piece of his anatomy where it is???

* I have no idea if that is actually a word lol