Wainwrights

[masta]

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Not looking to start a debate but somehow I can't get my head around duck in dog food. Is it farmed duck...it must be I guess? Seems a bit sad really...... :unsure:
I wonder if any dog food manufacturer does vegetarian dog food? It'd be nice to alternate with a non meat diet occasionally. Is it really as daft as it sounds....?

Sorry, I know how difficult it is to find a dog food that suits and keeps a whippets interest, and Wainwrights does sound a good brand....so not trying to go off on a tangent, just musing really...............

"Is it really as daft as it sounds....?" Yes, my daughter has a rabbit but i would'nt feed it steak and kidney pudding, your dog is a carnivore ie it is not equipped anatomically to eat veg

about veg - I've read (again, some time back so can't quote the source) that dogs cannot digest raw vegetables, as in, get any good out of them, only cooked, but we know that processing removes the valuable nutrients to a large degree.

I see them solely as a source of carbohydrates, and a treat if they have a meal of pasta/rice with cooked veg and mince, tripe or chicken.

but their not human,dogs do not require a great deal of carb and they dont need cooked mince with veg, if you want to give them a treat feed them what they require meat and bone

 

[Nicola]

Having done a quick google, there are one or two manufacturers that produce vegetarian dog feed (Wafcol for one), and there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest you can feed your dog a vegetarian diet.

I'm really not advocating or arguing that dogs should be fed a veggie diet (honest), as already stated they are carnivores, but couldn't see the harm in feeding a diet where one or two meals are purely veggie. I was just musing out loud (and I should know better on a public dog forum (w00t) ). I don't have the book to hand at the mo' but I seem to remember reading in, 'Give a Dog a Bone', that dogs can skip the odd meat meal with a veggie one in the week.

If I had a PAH near me I'd probably give the Wainright food a try too...but it's Nature Diet for my two, which they love, with an idea to swap one meal a week with a veggie.

 

[Dar Khan]

My dogs love a bit of veg but in with meat and stuff ,

 

[Dar Khan]

Is natures diet made by Berties ? if so it is better than any pah wainwrights whatever they call it Bah!

 

[masta]

Having done a quick google, there are one or two manufacturers that produce vegetarian dog feed (Wafcol for one), and there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest you can feed your dog a vegetarian diet.
I'm really not advocating or arguing that dogs should be fed a veggie diet (honest), as already stated they are carnivores, but couldn't see the harm in feeding a diet where one or two meals are purely veggie. I was just musing out loud (and I should know better on a public dog forum (w00t) ). I don't have the book to hand at the mo' but I seem to remember reading in, 'Give a Dog a Bone', that dogs can skip the odd meat meal with a veggie one in the week.

If I had a PAH near me I'd probably give the Wainright food a try too...but it's Nature Diet for my two, which they love, with an idea to swap one meal a week with a veggie.

but why would you need or want to do that? why does your dog need to "skip a meat meal" you say you "carn't see the harm" below is the clinical evidence-

Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice.

Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released).

Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter—even preprocessed plant matter—are unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs.

 

[Noise]

masta do you never ever give your dogs anything else but raw meat and bones?

I know that they don't NEED veg or pasta or rice per se, but I know it doesn't harm them and they love a meal like that once in a while (and it's not even once a week). as treats they get dried tripe, or dried fish, even, shock horror, dog treat biscuits.

 

[jinnyfizz]

My dogs only get raw meat, chicken wings and fresh raw bones and for treats they get tripe sticks or liver cake for a training treat. I also add seaweed supplement, extra calcium for the pups and Poacher gets chondroitin, glucosamine and MSM for her back leg. Another good addition for flexibility is pharmaceutical grade collagen.

On the odd occasion when I have needed to use a dry food, I have chosen JWB (ie when travelling on a hot summer day without the facility to keep raw meat cold).

This is not to say that my gang don't relish the idea of eating human food!! They must do, as they follow us out to the kitchen when we finish eating in the hope that they might get the plates to lick :lol: ....... and sometimes they do :b

I suppose that feeding them human food is mainly to satisfy our own need for variety, a trait which dogs only develop if we let them. I know our dogs don't live in the wild, but if they did they wouldn't be finding pasta and cooked veg waiting for them under a bush :thumbsup:

 

[Hula]

Not looking to start a debate but somehow I can't get my head around duck in dog food. Is it farmed duck...it must be I guess? Seems a bit sad really...... :unsure:
I wonder if any dog food manufacturer does vegetarian dog food? It'd be nice to alternate with a non meat diet occasionally. Is it really as daft as it sounds....?

Sorry, I know how difficult it is to find a dog food that suits and keeps a whippets interest, and Wainwrights does sound a good brand....so not trying to go off on a tangent, just musing really...............

"Is it really as daft as it sounds....?" Yes, my daughter has a rabbit but i would'nt feed it steak and kidney pudding, your dog is a carnivore ie it is not equipped anatomically to eat veg

The only true carnivore is the cat .

 

[Noise]

My dogs only get raw meat, chicken wings and fresh raw bones and for treats they get tripe sticks or liver cake for a training treat. I also add seaweed supplement, extra calcium for the pups and Poacher gets chondroitin, glucosamine and MSM for her back leg. Another good addition for flexibility is pharmaceutical grade collagen.
On the odd occasion when I have needed to use a dry food, I have chosen JWB (ie when travelling on a hot summer day without the facility to keep raw meat cold).

This is not to say that my gang don't relish the idea of eating human food!! They must do, as they follow us out to the kitchen when we finish eating in the hope that they might get the plates to lick :lol: ....... and sometimes they do :b

I suppose that feeding them human food is mainly to satisfy our own need for variety, a trait which dogs only develop if we let them. I know our dogs don't live in the wild, but if they did they wouldn't be finding pasta and cooked veg waiting for them under a bush :thumbsup:

they also would not find seaweed supplement, calcium, chondroitin, glucosamine and MSM under a bush. and if a wild dog/wolf had a bag leg than that would be that - the animal would not most likely survive.

 

[jinnyfizz]

My dogs only get raw meat, chicken wings and fresh raw bones and for treats they get tripe sticks or liver cake for a training treat. I also add seaweed supplement, extra calcium for the pups and Poacher gets chondroitin, glucosamine and MSM for her back leg. Another good addition for flexibility is pharmaceutical grade collagen.
On the odd occasion when I have needed to use a dry food, I have chosen JWB (ie when travelling on a hot summer day without the facility to keep raw meat cold).

This is not to say that my gang don't relish the idea of eating human food!! They must do, as they follow us out to the kitchen when we finish eating in the hope that they might get the plates to lick :lol: ....... and sometimes they do :b

I suppose that feeding them human food is mainly to satisfy our own need for variety, a trait which dogs only develop if we let them. I know our dogs don't live in the wild, but if they did they wouldn't be finding pasta and cooked veg waiting for them under a bush :thumbsup:

they also would not find seaweed supplement, calcium, chondroitin, glucosamine and MSM under a bush. and if a wild dog/wolf had a bag leg than that would be that - the animal would not most likely survive.

It's lucky that Poacher is with me then, isn't it!

........ they will find naturally growing herbs etc in the wild (including seaweed if they lived by the coast) which they will eat - a dog's answer to vegetables

 

[Suerose]

Is natures diet made by Berties ? if so it is better than any pah wainwrights whatever they call it Bah!

I think they are an independent company. They are based in Thetford, Norfolk. Grace has their food and loves it, and I keep crates of three flavours and rotate so the fussy little madam doesn't get bored

 

[Noise]

Is natures diet made by Berties ? if so it is better than any pah wainwrights whatever they call it Bah!

I think they are an independent company. They are based in Thetford, Norfolk. Grace has their food and loves it, and I keep crates of three flavours and rotate so the fussy little madam doesn't get bored

it's all in your head that she needs variety :lol:

sorry peeps, it's clear not a single person on this board does or would feed their dogs on vegetables and pasta! but some make it out as if giving a dog a cooked carrot or a bit of pasta is as good as poisoning them!

people don't need to eat ice cream or pizza, we still do, in small quantities it hasn't killed anyone!

 

[bertha]

Is natures diet made by Berties ? if so it is better than any pah wainwrights whatever they call it Bah!

I think they are an independent company. They are based in Thetford, Norfolk. Grace has their food and loves it, and I keep crates of three flavours and rotate so the fussy little madam doesn't get bored

it's all in your head that she needs variety :lol:

sorry peeps, it's clear not a single person on this board does or would feed their dogs on vegetables and pasta! but some make it out as if giving a dog a cooked carrot or a bit of pasta is as good as poisoning them!

people don't need to eat ice cream or pizza, we still do, in small quantities it hasn't killed anyone!

I think you are being a bit flippant! Horses for courses, my dogs get pasta if I cook too much, they also have veggies. People will feed what they see fit, dogs do like variety by the way.

 

[Noise]

Is natures diet made by Berties ? if so it is better than any pah wainwrights whatever they call it Bah!

I think they are an independent company. They are based in Thetford, Norfolk. Grace has their food and loves it, and I keep crates of three flavours and rotate so the fussy little madam doesn't get bored

it's all in your head that she needs variety :lol:

sorry peeps, it's clear not a single person on this board does or would feed their dogs on vegetables and pasta! but some make it out as if giving a dog a cooked carrot or a bit of pasta is as good as poisoning them!

people don't need to eat ice cream or pizza, we still do, in small quantities it hasn't killed anyone!

I think you are being a bit flippant! Horses for courses, my dogs get pasta if I cook too much, they also have veggies. People will feed what they see fit, dogs do like variety by the way.

huh :unsure:

no I am not. I, and others, mentioned that occoassionaly our dogs get a bit of pasta and veg, exactly as you say - as I see it fit and it doesn't do them any harm and they seem to enjoy it. and I also agree with you - that seems dogs do enjoy variety, at least mine do.

the comment I made re Suerose's post was a joke

 

[jakers]

I've not heard of Wainwrights and, Noise, I hope you don't mind me using your post but do you know anything about Skinners, or indeed heard of it?

Yes we feed skinners, produced orginally for the gundog working dog world, but we have found it an ideal maintainance to our whippets, it's low in protein ( important for our hyper gsd!), we mix with tripe and water just to add variety. Duck and rice is fed to our gsds and ruff and ready to the whippets ( no need for mixer for that it has lots of variety so they tell me!). We spoke to the local kennel owner ( she has 40 dogs! of her own and she is about a million and 2 yrs and has had more dogs than I could even think of living to a rope old age! ), she believes soley in Meat feed and feed natures menu only for her kennel dogs. I can give a thumbs up to skinners tho suits our 6 perfectly. :thumbsup:

 

[jinnyfizz]

Is natures diet made by Berties ? if so it is better than any pah wainwrights whatever they call it Bah!

I think they are an independent company. They are based in Thetford, Norfolk. Grace has their food and loves it, and I keep crates of three flavours and rotate so the fussy little madam doesn't get bored

it's all in your head that she needs variety :lol:

sorry peeps, it's clear not a single person on this board does or would feed their dogs on vegetables and pasta! but some make it out as if giving a dog a cooked carrot or a bit of pasta is as good as poisoning them!

people don't need to eat ice cream or pizza, we still do, in small quantities it hasn't killed anyone!

I think you are being a bit flippant! Horses for courses, my dogs get pasta if I cook too much, they also have veggies. People will feed what they see fit, dogs do like variety by the way.

huh :unsure:

no I am not. I, and others, mentioned that occoassionaly our dogs get a bit of pasta and veg, exactly as you say - as I see it fit and it doesn't do them any harm and they seem to enjoy it. and I also agree with you - that seems dogs do enjoy variety, at least mine do.

the comment I made re Suerose's post was a joke

Yes. It's called sarcasm. No doubt in response to a comment I made earlier ..........

"I suppose that feeding them human food is mainly to satisfy our own need for variety, a trait which dogs only develop if we let them"

I suggest you re-read my post. I don't dispute that dogs will accept variety - after all I presume a rabbit tastes differently to a fox - but unless we are feeding them, they have to kill what is available in order to eat.

To be effective, either in the wild or as a working/competing or healthy companion dog for humans, the dog needs the correct sustenance. Protein.

Of course it won't harm them to have the occasional snack of "human" food but you seem to have missed the point that Masta has made very clearly (and provided scientific evidence in support of) that the canine digestive system is not designed to process carbohydrates effectively.

I doubt you would find many human athletes consuming a meal of ice cream and pizza when they are expecting to be able to perform at the top their chosen function even though our digestive system is designed to cope with an omniverous diet.

Everyone will have a different opinion on how to feed their dogs and I choose to feed mine in an entirely natural way. That is my perogative.

Oh, and by the way, glucosamine, chondroitin and MSMs are naturally occurring substances in the body, so a dog WOULD be obtaining these by eating prey which they had killed

 

[Nicola]

Having done a quick google, there are one or two manufacturers that produce vegetarian dog feed (Wafcol for one), and there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest you can feed your dog a vegetarian diet.
I'm really not advocating or arguing that dogs should be fed a veggie diet (honest), as already stated they are carnivores, but couldn't see the harm in feeding a diet where one or two meals are purely veggie. I was just musing out loud (and I should know better on a public dog forum (w00t) ). I don't have the book to hand at the mo' but I seem to remember reading in, 'Give a Dog a Bone', that dogs can skip the odd meat meal with a veggie one in the week.

If I had a PAH near me I'd probably give the Wainright food a try too...but it's Nature Diet for my two, which they love, with an idea to swap one meal a week with a veggie.

but why would you need or want to do that? why does your dog need to "skip a meat meal" you say you "carn't see the harm" below is the clinical evidence-

Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice.

Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released).

Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter—even preprocessed plant matter—are unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs.

Quoting Dr Ian Billinghurst in, 'Give a Dog a Bone', "Because dogs are omnivores, vegetables, particularly green leafy vegetables should form a substantial part of their diet." He goes on to explain that vegetables supply main nutrients and help to prevent diseases of the digestory tract and degenerative diseases.

There are obviously conflicting thoughts on this view, having read your information above. However, Ian Billinghurst does concede vegetables need to be fed raw and crushed, which does point towards the theories you've quoted above.

I think the most important thing he says (im my opinion only) is that a balanced diet consists of not every meal being balanced , so long as there is a balance of nutrients over 3 - 7 days. I read in that, that one meal can be a veggie one if need be, (best served raw and pulped).

Why would I want to do this you ask? Fair question...I just want to help reduce the impact feeding my dogs has on the environment. With a growing human and dog population, I want to find a way that I can personally reduce my

carbon footprint and reduce the number of animals that go to slaughter to feed me and my dogs. I recognise I need to reduce my meat intake as well, which is currently what I'm doing. It's just something I feel strongly about....but I don't want to force my views on others :b ...everyone has to make their own choice. I just can't help commenting on things occasionally,...which is how this all started and we went off topic. :-

 

[masta]

Having done a quick google, there are one or two manufacturers that produce vegetarian dog feed (Wafcol for one), and there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest you can feed your dog a vegetarian diet.
I'm really not advocating or arguing that dogs should be fed a veggie diet (honest), as already stated they are carnivores, but couldn't see the harm in feeding a diet where one or two meals are purely veggie. I was just musing out loud (and I should know better on a public dog forum (w00t) ). I don't have the book to hand at the mo' but I seem to remember reading in, 'Give a Dog a Bone', that dogs can skip the odd meat meal with a veggie one in the week.

If I had a PAH near me I'd probably give the Wainright food a try too...but it's Nature Diet for my two, which they love, with an idea to swap one meal a week with a veggie.

but why would you need or want to do that? why does your dog need to "skip a meat meal" you say you "carn't see the harm" below is the clinical evidence-

Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice.

Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released).

Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter—even preprocessed plant matter—are unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs.

Quoting Dr Ian Billinghurst in, 'Give a Dog a Bone', "Because dogs are omnivores, vegetables, particularly green leafy vegetables should form a substantial part of their diet." He goes on to explain that vegetables supply main nutrients and help to prevent diseases of the digestory tract and degenerative diseases.

There are obviously conflicting thoughts on this view, having read your information above. However, Ian Billinghurst does concede vegetables need to be fed raw and crushed, which does point towards the theories you've quoted above.

I think the most important thing he says (im my opinion only) is that a balanced diet consists of not every meal being balanced , so long as there is a balance of nutrients over 3 - 7 days. I read in that, that one meal can be a veggie one if need be, (best served raw and pulped)

Why would I want to do this you ask? Fair question...I just want to help reduce the impact feeding my dogs has on the environment. With a growing human and dog population, I want to find a way that I can personally reduce my

carbon footprint and reduce the number of animals that go to slaughter to feed me and my dogs. I recognise I need to reduce my meat intake as well, which is currently what I'm doing. It's just something I feel strongly about....but I don't want to force my views on others :b ...everyone has to make their own choice. I just can't help commenting on things occasionally,...which is how this all started and we went off topic. :-

Thanks for your reply, i think there are maybe easier ways of reducing your "Carbon Footprint" ie getting rid of your car,solar heating etc than trying to make a carnivour eat a meal that they are not able to digest correctly. why do you own a dog if you feel strongly re slaughter of animals to feed them, not knocking your beliefs just find it hard to understand if you hold those views why force them on the dog?

 

[masta]

I know that they don't NEED veg or pasta or rice per se, but I know it doesn't harm them and they love a meal like that once in a while (and it's not even once a week). as treats they get dried tripe, or dried fish, even, shock horror, dog treat biscuits.

- Read the clinical evidence in the post, you keep saying " i know it doesn't harm them" maybe you should trying eating raw meat and bone for a couple of meals each week?? by the way as a human you have a sacculated colon so all that lovely health raw meat and bone will sit and digest and will not cause you any problems :x

 

[Nicola]

Having done a quick google, there are one or two manufacturers that produce vegetarian dog feed (Wafcol for one), and there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest you can feed your dog a vegetarian diet.
I'm really not advocating or arguing that dogs should be fed a veggie diet (honest), as already stated they are carnivores, but couldn't see the harm in feeding a diet where one or two meals are purely veggie. I was just musing out loud (and I should know better on a public dog forum (w00t) ). I don't have the book to hand at the mo' but I seem to remember reading in, 'Give a Dog a Bone', that dogs can skip the odd meat meal with a veggie one in the week.

If I had a PAH near me I'd probably give the Wainright food a try too...but it's Nature Diet for my two, which they love, with an idea to swap one meal a week with a veggie.

but why would you need or want to do that? why does your dog need to "skip a meat meal" you say you "carn't see the harm" below is the clinical evidence-

Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice.

Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released).

Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter—even preprocessed plant matter—are unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs.

Quoting Dr Ian Billinghurst in, 'Give a Dog a Bone', "Because dogs are omnivores, vegetables, particularly green leafy vegetables should form a substantial part of their diet." He goes on to explain that vegetables supply main nutrients and help to prevent diseases of the digestory tract and degenerative diseases.

There are obviously conflicting thoughts on this view, having read your information above. However, Ian Billinghurst does concede vegetables need to be fed raw and crushed, which does point towards the theories you've quoted above.

I think the most important thing he says (im my opinion only) is that a balanced diet consists of not every meal being balanced , so long as there is a balance of nutrients over 3 - 7 days. I read in that, that one meal can be a veggie one if need be, (best served raw and pulped)

Why would I want to do this you ask? Fair question...I just want to help reduce the impact feeding my dogs has on the environment. With a growing human and dog population, I want to find a way that I can personally reduce my

carbon footprint and reduce the number of animals that go to slaughter to feed me and my dogs. I recognise I need to reduce my meat intake as well, which is currently what I'm doing. It's just something I feel strongly about....but I don't want to force my views on others :b ...everyone has to make their own choice. I just can't help commenting on things occasionally,...which is how this all started and we went off topic. :-

Thanks for your reply, i think there are maybe easier ways of reducing your "Carbon Footprint" ie getting rid of your car,solar heating etc than trying to make a carnivour eat a meal that they are not able to digest correctly. why do you own a dog if you feel strongly re slaughter of animals to feed them, not knocking your beliefs just find it hard to understand if you hold those views why force them on the dog?

Ah..now..that's a bit unkind..and I don't want to get drawn into a long winded debate. I love dogs...and I'm not againt the farming and slaughter of animals (I'm not a veggie!!), I'm just concerned about reducing my own impact in a small way (and not just via the dogs...I do try and reduce my carbon foortprint in other ways too!).

Anyway...I apologise folks...this really has gone off topic.